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A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

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Professor Vesca said:
-[][BONESINGER] Enhance Industry (3 AP)
--[][FORGE] Use the Forge (One Turn Completion)

Thats what Alectai spends on enhance industry. Where are you getting 40% from?
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I meant the leading plan that focuses on enhancing industry, not the leading plan that has the action at all. Alectais plan spends 20%

Professor Vesca said:
Its already kinda worthwhile? Like have you seen how many needlers and voidweave our two current foundries spit out?
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Actually yes, I'm with you on this, even at this point Forges are strong actions to spend it on, I just want to have more EI early on because of how much it means our output scales every turn then on.
 
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Professor Vesca said:
If our engines are up and running then it doesnt matter how many Orks are in a waaaagh we can just skip town. We can leave. Thats one of the major strengths of the Aeldari and its why our allies wanted us to help fix their engines in exchange for their support and allegiance. That implies to me that our engines are also a critical thing.

Notice how our industry is not a line item on our critical task list. But our engines are. It says to me that its fine, and worth throwing stuff at our engines to get them started.
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The same way that Arach-Qin dodges an ork attack even with them mobile and having a strong fleet around to protect them which still resulted in their shipyards being leveled to the ground ?

Running away isn't a sure thing and most of the problems we face are things we can't run away from.
 
Anyway to distract everyone from the issue at hand;

I the self-proclaimed chief of Biel-Fucking-Tan haters and former self-elected lord of Fuck Khaine all my homies hate Khaine, use the opportunity that I saw/imagined to claim a new title the Self-chosen prophet of Vaul being alive copium cult;

"Evidence":
  1. Isha survived so his survival isn't impossible, especially since he is narratively bound to Khaine and as such Khaine's claim on him holds as his claim on Aeldari (also, in theory being enslaved he technically couldn't even try prevent the corruption of the dominium and as such Slaaneash's claim of "you allowed me to be born, so now I can eat you" could in theory not apply to him)
  2. Mechanis saving the only apocryphal about us in part being Vaul
  3. We didn't see Slaaneash's reaction to the Aeldmoot; We saw reaction of every major craftworld leader, we saw reaction of Kairos, Nurgle, Khorne and Isha, but not Slaaneash. And I ask you what would it/he/she/they do if the followers of Vaul found and shared the nature of its claim? Obviously, they torture Vaul; they can't eat him (with his prison acting now as his shield), but it doesn't mean she can't torture him in a fit of anger.
  4. The Forge of Vaul is working, not corrupted by Vashtorr, or by Slaaneash. The forge of Vaul, which one could claim is his greatest temple left, is functioning, vastly weakened, but it works.
  5. It would be very cool
 
SuperSonicSound said:
I meant the leading plan that focuses on enhancing industry, not the leading plan that has the action at all. Alectais plan spends 20%
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Okay.

Well I dont want to spend 40% of our BAP on enhance industry actions. I wasnt counting the percentage of BAP, I was counting how many enhance actions were kicked off and I already stated the limits of my comfort, with respect to how many such projects we should kick off in a turn. Primarily because there are other things I also want to do in a turn and we wont get to do those if we dont have the BAP.

@SuperSonicSound Catching your edit: Sure and thats valid but it is again, simply not an interesting way for me to vote? Those actions dont interest me, I am fine with pushing them but there is a limit to how hard we go in on things. I want to be able to do other stuff too, and Alectai's plan feels like a good balance to me. I could be swayed in another direction but I dont really like how folks have been portraying the enhance industry action to be frank.

Foundries themselves are interesting to me, but the enhance industry action as a whole is not and ill advocate for pushing it only as a matter of housekeeping, not center large chunks of our BAP on it.

We will be fine.

Skjadir said:
The same way that Arach-Qin dodges an ork attack even with them mobile and having a strong fleet around to protect them which still resulted in their shipyards being leveled to the ground ?

Running away isn't a sure thing and most of the problems we face are things we can't run away from.
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The Fall feels like extenuating circumstances to be honest? Unless you disagree that our entire civilization getting devoured, our souls mutilated, and most of our tech no longer functioning while we flee across the galaxy for our lives, to be extenuating circumstances?
 
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Skjadir said:
The same way that Arach-Qin dodges an ork attack even with them mobile and having a strong fleet around to protect them which still resulted in their shipyards being leveled to the ground ?

Running away isn't a sure thing and most of the problems we face are things we can't run away from.
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Arach Qin exited the webway into a battle. They couldn't flee because the webway was unstable as the Fall was happening. If they could run, they probably would have.
 
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Professor Vesca said:
The Fall feels like extenuating circumstances to be honest? Unless you disagree that our entire civilization getting devoured, our souls mutilated, and most of our tech no longer functioning while we flee across the galaxy for our lives, to be extenuating circumstances?
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I picked Arach-Qin there because they were the ones with still working engines, so going with your engines just lets us run away they should have taken no damage there.


Meros as example couldn't dodge because engines were busted and is why i didn't use them.
 
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Skjadir said:
I picked Arach-Qin there because they were the ones with still working engines, so going with your engines just lets us run away they should have taken no damage there.


Meros as example couldn't dodge because engines were busted and is why i didn't use them.
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In any other situation the seers would have likely seen the oncoming WAAAGH and the craftworld would have been able to move out of the way in time. But these ships are the size of large moons, they are not fast or agile. Their defense is their ability to predict the future and their ability to move at all. A good chunk of the seers efforts are probably consumed by predicting and tracking various threats to the craftworld so it can move out of the way in time.

If a craftworld is caught by surprise engines or no engines, its not going to be able to get away in time.

We arent talking about outrunning a fleet. But rather predicting the fleet is on its way at all and then being somewhere else by the time it shows up.
 
I don't think Alectai's plan is a bad one. it's fairly solid even if it is grabbing 3 AP worth of development actions that we wouldn't necessarily put to use for a few turns over BAP that would have come in handy from turn 7 on. regardless, it's what's happening. I'm over it.

what's more important to me is that Enhance industry receives more focus turn 6 and 7. this is what I'm talking about. because we have a lull, we have a decently large army and Navy and will likely gain more when we bring Lal'c-Tann in since the only thing we know about them is they had the warhosts and hero units to pull our nephews ass out of the fire and work with him to sword a pair of greater Daemon's. that says military to me.

it's entirely in character for industrial minded Aresh-Vul to think "Industry was tight back when it was just my allies in the north that needed it. if I'm planning to be involved with the greater Aeldari Disporia, I better ramp up my industry."


Professor Vesca said:
There is nothing yet unique about our faction to differentiate us from other craftworlds
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ahem.

two working forge of Vaul

starlancers

fatesever

a flawless victory over Waagh Grimtusk

Draylin of the Truesight, Seerlord of Meros

first blood against the ruinous ones in terms of meaningful damage.
 
Regarding the engines, I look at it as an opportunity tax. Having our engines online and fully operational means that if we find or hear about a short-term opportunity that is just out of reach, we're going to be able to jump on it and reposition ourselves to adjust our logistics chain to take advantage of it. Or if another craftworld is coming to us for repairs, we can work to meet them halfway and cut down on the time it'll take to enact said repairs.
 
Professor Vesca said:
Okay.

Well I dont want to spend 40% of our BAP on enhance industry actions. I wasnt counting the percentage of BAP, I was counting how many enhance actions were kicked off and I already stated the limits of my comfort, with respect to how many such projects we should kick off in a turn. Primarily because there are other things I also want to do in a turn and we wont get to do those if we dont have the BAP.

@SuperSonicSound Catching your edit: Sure and thats valid but it is again, simply not an interesting way for me to vote? Those actions dont interest me, I am fine with pushing them but there is a limit to how hard we go in on things. I want to be able to do other stuff too, and Alectai's plan feels like a good balance to me. I could be swayed in another direction but I dont really like how folks have been portraying the enhance industry action to be frank.

Foundries themselves are interesting to me, but the enhance industry action as a whole is not and ill advocate for pushing it only as a matter of housekeeping, not center large chunks of our BAP on it.
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There's a lot of things I want to do but I know we don't have the BAP to do it effectively at the moment, primarily I don't want us to be piddling about worrying about trying to equip our troops with low tier gear because we don't have the BAP to mass produce foundries for the good shit, a few turns of doing 2 EI actions leads to us having a drastic amount more action points to do the stuff that sounds interesting.

I feel it's important to say here the point of EI isn't just for the sake of it, it's a boring action in reality, but that's because it's foundational to our action economy, if it wasn't for the fact that our ability to do literally everything else didn't key off of it I wouldn't care. Also as a percentage doing 2 EI a turn for awhile means very quickly that stops being a big chunk of our action economy.
 
Randino Treviani said:
I don't think Alectai's plan is a bad one. it's fairly solid even if it is grabbing 3 AP worth of development actions that we wouldn't necessarily put to use for a few turns over BAP that would have come in handy from turn 7 on. regardless, it's what's happening. I'm over it.

what's more important to me is that Enhance industry receives more focus turn 6 and 7. this is what I'm talking about. because we have a lull, we have a decently large army and Navy and will likely gain more when we bring Lal'c-Tann in since the only thing we know about them is they had the warhosts and hero units to pull our nephews ass out of the fire and work with him to sword a pair of greater Daemon's. that says military to me.

it's entirely in character for industrial minded Aresh-Vul to think "Industry was tight back when it was just my allies in the north that needed it. if I'm planning to be involved with the greater Aeldari Disporia, I better ramp up my industry."



ahem.

two working forge of Vaul

starlancers

fatesever

a flawless victory over Waagh Grimtusk

Draylin of the Truesight, Seerlord of Meros

first blood against the ruinous ones in terms of meaningful damage.
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Im talking about in terms of mechanics, which this vote is primarily about.

Supersonic was talking about the 'unique mechanics' with respect to how our faction operates. But the truth is if we can make foundries, so can the other craftworlds if they are only taught how and there is no reason for the Asuryani not to have foundries too. There is nothing unique about us that only we can do that others cannot do if we were willing to show them how or to give them the idea in the first place.

And I am fine pushing the Enhance Industry button later on. We should just keep pushing it.
 
Skjadir said:
I picked Arach-Qin there because they were the ones with still working engines, so going with your engines just lets us run away they should have taken no damage there.


Meros as example couldn't dodge because engines were busted and is why i didn't use them.
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But even with working engines, they couldn't run away because the webway was at its most unstable. The craftworld can't outrun anything in realspace.
Arach Qin had 3 options:
1 - Fight the orks
2 - Go back in the webway, and risk falling into the warp
3 - Do a warp jump with the whole craftworld, where the orks can still follow.

They did 1, and took a bunch of damage in the process.
I hindsight, they could have done 2, which would probably have been safe, but they had no way to know that. The apocalypse was happening. For all they knew the whole webway was about to fall into the warp.
3 is just there as a "worst case scenario"
 
Randino Treviani said:
ahem.

two working forge of Vaul

starlancers

fatesever

a flawless victory over Waagh Grimtusk

Draylin of the Truesight, Seerlord of Meros

first blood against the ruinous ones in terms of meaningful damage.
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Technically one working Forge of Vaul, it just gives us 2 AP to spend on stuff.
EDIT:
[X] Plan: The Dawn of a New Day
 
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SuperSonicSound said:
There's a lot of things I want to do but I know we don't have the BAP to do it effectively at the moment, primarily I don't want us to be piddling about worrying about trying to equip our troops with low tier gear because we don't have the BAP to mass produce foundries for the good shit, a few turns of doing 2 EI actions leads to us having a drastic amount more action points to do the stuff that sounds interesting.

I feel it's important to say here the point of EI isn't just for the sake of it, it's a boring action in reality, but that's because it's foundational to our action economy, if it wasn't for the fact that our ability to do literally everything else didn't key off of it I wouldn't care. Also as a percentage doing 2 EI a turn for awhile means very quickly that stops being a big chunk of our action economy.
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I am not interested in having that conversation with Alratan. I am certainly not interested in having it with *you*. Nor will I.

Our gear is fine. We do not make shit guns or shit armor. All of our stuff is of the highest quality and very good at what it has been designed to do. We arent giving anyone piddling anything. Our foundries are already putting out waaaaaay more guns then we expected them to. Our industry as it currently is is fine, and we can always throw an action towards Enhance Industry.

Even our lasweapons are better than anyone elses.

Say what you will, I will not be picking up this line of discussion again.
 
yea, the forge is pretty fantastic.

The Factories we're making are less efficient(maxing out at 900 EP per turn), and their output is proportionate with the complexity of the item.

Vaul's forge just spits out 10k EP per turn in whatever combination we can think of.
 
Professor Vesca said:
I am not interested in having that conversation with Alratan. I am certainly not interested in having it with *you*. Nor will I.

Our gear is fine. We do not make shit guns or shit armor. All of our stuff is of the highest quality and very good at what it has been designed to do. We arent giving anyone piddling anything. Our foundries are already putting out waaaaaay more guns then we expected them to. Our industry as it currently is is fine, and we can always throw an action towards Enhance Industry.

Even our lasweapons are better than anyone elses.

Say what you will, I will not be picking up this line of discussion again.
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I think you're misunderstanding what I mean, never claimed anything about the quality of our gear which I'm sure is all masterwork. I'd rather never run Las weaponry if I could help it that we do at all is because we're desperate.
 
Profilozof said:
Anyway to distract everyone from the issue at hand;

I the self-proclaimed chief of Biel-Fucking-Tan haters and former self-elected lord of Fuck Khaine all my homies hate Khaine, use the opportunity that I saw/imagined to claim a new title the Self-chosen prophet of Vaul being alive copium cult;

"Evidence":
  1. Isha survived so his survival isn't impossible, especially since he is narratively bound to Khaine and as such Khaine's claim on him holds as his claim on Aeldari (also, in theory being enslaved he technically couldn't even try prevent the corruption of the dominium and as such Slaaneash's claim of "you allowed me to be born, so now I can eat you" could in theory not apply to him)
  2. Mechanis saving the only apocryphal about us in part being Vaul
  3. We didn't see Slaaneash's reaction to the Aeldmoot; We saw reaction of every major craftworld leader, we saw reaction of Kairos, Nurgle, Khorne and Isha, but not Slaaneash. And I ask you what would it/he/she/they do if the followers of Vaul found and shared the nature of its claim? Obviously, they torture Vaul; they can't eat him (with his prison acting now as his shield), but it doesn't mean she can't torture him in a fit of anger.
  4. The Forge of Vaul is working, not corrupted by Vashtorr, or by Slaaneash. The forge of Vaul, which one could claim is his greatest temple left, is functioning, vastly weakened, but it works.
  5. It would be very cool
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One of my theories is that Vaul's soul is one of the spirits that gets traded to the Emperor so he can turn them into Primarchs. In this case, with Vaul becoming Vulkan in the future. The similarities between them are pretty self evident and the dramatic irony is palpable.
 
To make a bit of a point on the scale.

Let's say that equipping 900 people costs us 4BAP for armor, 6 for weapons and then another 6 for transports (very fucking low balled). -> 16 BAP
And that is them in brigantine, Needler and 1 mirage transport for like every 7-8 squad.

That scales up to 90 000 people per turn is 1600 BAP.
That is still for a 5-year turn, so 22 500 per year for a craftworld with 5.4 Billion Eldar.

To say that this sucks is an understatement. To get an actual professional army you are looking at spending 40+BAP to set up foundries per 900 recruited, with most of that going into vehicles.

Guess how many BAP we get until the great crusade without scaling (starts in about 800 years, so 160 turns)?
About 2400 total with current input.

You could argue that most (modern equivalent) civilized worlds have a higher output than that.

Where we actually want to be industrial wise at the start of the great crusade ?
Getting close to the actual output of an admech forgeworld, actual goal being better than mars.
 
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Professor Vesca said:
If a craftworld is caught by surprise engines or no engines, its not going to be able to get away in time.
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nah. Arach-qin took the massive Roch to their shipyards ultra personally and decided to take their intact fleet on rampage through Orc space, including taking on an extremis system.
TempestK said:
Regarding the engines, I look at it as an opportunity tax. Having our engines online and fully operational means that if we find or hear about a short-term opportunity that is just out of reach, we're going to be able to jump on it and reposition ourselves to adjust our logistics chain to take advantage of it. Or if another craftworld is coming to us for repairs, we can work to meet them halfway and cut down on the time it'll take to enact said repairs.
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lending our bonesinger AP doesn't work like that. the webway is fairly quick and somewhat reliable travel to anywhere in the galaxy pretty quickly, and we in particular have paired webway gates we can send workers through if we can get a combat brig to their world. this is how we were able to finish the engines of Zahr-Tann and Meros in 16 years with only a third of our BAP. the obstacle to overcome is the fact that we only have so much to spare and it is in high demand.

thus, investing 12 more BAP over turns 6 and 7 so we have 21 BAP ready turn 9. sign of Herald is complete turn 8 and we'll be a le take more diplomacy actions to come to arrangements of aiding repairs for craft worlds outside our alliance. having significant additional BAP is critical in being able to take those aid action and maintain pursuit of vau-vulkesh priorities.
Karnax626 said:
Technically one working Forge of Vaul, it just gives us 2 AP to spend on stuff.
EDIT:
[X] Plan: The Dawn of a New Day
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right. one. still more than anyone in the galaxy we know of.

I wonder if Stel-Uit's reward is a nonfunctional forge of Vaul we can repair. they did have a grand cathedral to Vaul after all.
Professor Vesca said:
Say what you will
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supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
 
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