A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)
- Location
- Germany
This is what I mean.
We have been told pretty explicitly this turn that we have time and can build up.
It's completely ignoring the situation, and going all in on the fearmongering that we need to get ready to move now!.
You are going all in on the fearmongering that we need to be mobile and don't have the time to build up so we can actually scale and matter.
Guess what even if we sink all of our BAP we have currently until the time of the great crusade into nothing but foundries and ship we still wouldn't matter because the scale our BAP operate on at the moment are that fucking bad.
We currently have the time to actually scale our BAP and need to do so pretty hard.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
I'm not assuming we have an arbitrary amount of time. I'm assuming we've got one, maybe two turns before OPFOR has realigned itself, or the Orks find out where we are because Kairos told them where we are or something.
I'm definitely not assuming we've got 4-5 turns of Perfect Safety, which would be required to get +10 AP even if we dump everything that isn't Build Industry actions. That's 30 AP, but we only get 12 per turn, and that also assumes the Diminishing Returns Fairy doesn't make herself known before then.
I am not assuming I've Solved The Game when there's still so much we don't know, so I've presented a plan that keeps our options open while steadily expanding our Industry, instead of rushing Industry at the expense of everything that isn't expanding industry.
I'm definitely not assuming we've got 4-5 turns of Perfect Safety, which would be required to get +10 AP even if we dump everything that isn't Build Industry actions. That's 30 AP, but we only get 12 per turn, and that also assumes the Diminishing Returns Fairy doesn't make herself known before then.
I am not assuming I've Solved The Game when there's still so much we don't know, so I've presented a plan that keeps our options open while steadily expanding our Industry, instead of rushing Industry at the expense of everything that isn't expanding industry.
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Kolar
Is Not A Robot
I don't recall any plan proposed for this turn that rush the engines.
Sure Alectai was doing that previously when he was dead set of the fact we would be overrun by the orks at any time, but he dropped that after accepting that isn't happening.
This assentation sounds manipulative and disingenuous.
No plan has, no.
Which is another way of saying that the people arguing "long term doesn't matter if the short term kills you first" are being fundamentally insincere. Building the entire control center could save us a turn on getting the engines fixed if we ever need to get away ASAP; short of that, the thing that's most likely to kill us is a failure to sufficiently industrialize when we can.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Then you've fallen for fear mongering, we're not in danger in the short term and industralising now pays big dividends in the medium term.
So is calling mild disagreement and normal discussion bullying.
it may well be a completely pointless step forwards if it doesn't unlock the next action needed from it. Crashing building is actually good usage of AP this half measure is just wasteful.
- Location
- Germany
We know that BAP has to scale to a stupid degree because we know that the Eldar in canon build all their wargear with active BAP somehow which is stupidly inefficient even if we went for the cheapest possible units (even with forge usage).
Here the bit.
- Pronouns
- Reader
I don't think the universe will stand still forever, which why this, a rare lull brought about by incomprehensible luck and coincidental timing, is a great time to take advantage of said lull to invest in the expansion of our industry in order to maintain critical bonesinger projects in spite of conflicting priorities.
When we find ourselves pulled between several priorities, having an additional 6 or 8 BAP would leave us well positioned to maintain things like refits and forge/foundry building even while we fined ourselves forced to spend AP on the unexpected.
I am not advocating ignoring our engines or other things, I do have Replacing Primary Power Distribution in my own plan, but merely investing more AP in Enhance industry. not 9 AP obviously, but a good 6 for turns 6 and 7 would do.
based on this the lull is not a turn or two thing but multiple turns long, probably until around turn 10. even when it does end, it doesn't mean we'll instantly have some manner of terrible enemy intrusion into the system we are in the turn it ends.
we have time to finish our engines slowly and build up our industry significantly as we do so. that significant industrial increase will be vital when that time runs out and we are again faced with hard choices and multiple priorities.
it's not just a case of the quest outright telling us we can afford to take our time, it's the fact that we can't afford to be found wanting in BAP when that time runs out and we'll need to shift a good amount of BAP towards refits.
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SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Yea basically Alectai is sort of ignoring the literal game changer of how this faction works, it's like playing a game of CIV and ignoring your civilisations speciality building and units.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Plan: The Dawn of a New Day
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
The hell are you talking about?
We are just throwing something at the engines to get them started so they are ticking away in the background. Thats all.
If the other craftworlds made foundries they would work exactly the same as ours. There is nothing yet unique about our faction to differentiate us from other craftworlds other than the fact we are of a vaulish mindset and so predisposed to think about industry in this way.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Do I need to quote the nonstop verbiage of "Numbers go up" being a bad thing?
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
See? This? This is what I mean by bullying.
When three people start chain-posting and agreeing with each other and united to shit on my plan that I spent most of a day canvassing everyone for and working something out that most people agree is an acceptable way to go, treating it like everyone is being ignorant and falling for my 'Fearmongering' rather than just maybe assuming that "Maybe we haven't solved the Entire Game in turn four and we should keep picking other low hanging fruits when possible?"
And now you're turning it around and saying that I'm Actively shooting us in the foot because I'm not prioritizing hyperfocusing on "Build Industry", and instead just expanding it at a steady pace as time goes on. You even are turning it around and saying that me going "Maybe we shouldn't ignore everything up" as me somehow going "Numbers Go Up" is a bad thing? I'm just saying there's other things we need to care about too!
And unless I want to turn this into a spaghetti post, I can't address every point from every individual person trying to put me down, so I'm stuck where I have to do three or four times the work.
So no, I'm not going to play your game any more, I've said my piece, let the plan stand as it is, for better or worse.
When three people start chain-posting and agreeing with each other and united to shit on my plan that I spent most of a day canvassing everyone for and working something out that most people agree is an acceptable way to go, treating it like everyone is being ignorant and falling for my 'Fearmongering' rather than just maybe assuming that "Maybe we haven't solved the Entire Game in turn four and we should keep picking other low hanging fruits when possible?"
And now you're turning it around and saying that I'm Actively shooting us in the foot because I'm not prioritizing hyperfocusing on "Build Industry", and instead just expanding it at a steady pace as time goes on. You even are turning it around and saying that me going "Maybe we shouldn't ignore everything up" as me somehow going "Numbers Go Up" is a bad thing? I'm just saying there's other things we need to care about too!
And unless I want to turn this into a spaghetti post, I can't address every point from every individual person trying to put me down, so I'm stuck where I have to do three or four times the work.
So no, I'm not going to play your game any more, I've said my piece, let the plan stand as it is, for better or worse.
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It makes no difference whatsoever to how many turns it'll take to fix the engines, and between those two AP and the one spent on grenade research that Alectai isn't actually doing anything with this turn there could be a second Enhance Industry.
An extra AP ticking away in the foreground does a lot more for us.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
I am asking about the 'game changer' about how our faction works because the biggest game changer I saw was the Shrine of Khain, and we hate that guy.
Yeah but thats not going to last forever and I would rather start chipping away at it today then have to dump an entire turns worth of BAP into it tomorrow because Kairos found the perfect henchmen to do his dirty work. That way its no longer a matter of engines OR other stuff, we can do both at the same time cause we got started on it now.
Like I understand, that if we push the Enhance Industry button now we have that extra BAP for all time in the future. But thats not really a satisfying way to play for me? Not when the cost for it is going to be so high? Its not interesting to me to fiddle around with the numbers.
I want to see new guns. I want to see our new warhost. I want to try out our new warshrine. I want to build foundries so we can lay the necessary groundwork for our future warhosts. And I kinda wanna see what our craftworld will look like with engines.
Like I am not unwilling to push that button. I just dont want it to consume our entire turn because people believe it is 'the optimal way' to play. Its simply not satisfying for me. That and the QM has assured me that there is no optimal way to play and the game is designed specifically to obscure the mathematically optimal path for us. So I kinda wanna do a bunch of different things now that we arent worrying about fending off Orks and we arent yet worried about Chaos Revenge.
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Kolar
Is Not A Robot
Not really disagreeing, but I feel someone taking such too personally is somewhat different to making completely false claims on others stance on policy.
On the whole 'EI is more efficient' thing. I acknowledge that. I prefer chipping away at the engine for now from an in-character perspective.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
That's great and all I know every one tries to paint their plan as the most rational and reasonable, but you're talking about plans that were voting for 2 EI actions as well as 3 and in no world is doing 2EI actions hyper focusing, it's that kind of framing that makes it hard to take what you're saying in good faith and that you're not fear mongering and distorting the truth.
I would have voted for your plan where it had 2 EI, I was in broad agreement with some of your plan aims, but then right before I get the chance to you dumpster the action whilst calling me and any one else that was posting about the efficacy of building up industry a bully, and i've got to say claiming you're being bullied is really gross as framing goes.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Yeah like I recognize its probably the efficient way to play.
I dont want to play maximally efficiently. Thats not how the game is set. You start projects and then leave them on the stove to cook. Like I recognize the necessity that we will need to push the button at some point. I am not against pushing it once or twice a turn. But I dont want to dump all our everything into it.
We already have more industry than most major craftworlds. Its fine.
- Location
- Germany
There are two things here that kind of interact.
1. Scale we are operating currently even RL on a laughingly small for the ground parts of our military scale wise, same goes for the logistical backbone.
Think about how fucking small a max recruitment of ~1500 people per 5 years is and still struggling to equip them.
We need to grow by a few magnitudes in terms of our BAP before for things look better there.
2. The very core of this quest is logistics and that include the scaling of them.
This is seen by just how much of our focus is on the design, production and training of units compared to everything else.
That the thing, pretty much anything that matters in 30k, ignoring 40k is just going to roll over us and not even notice us because we are that insignificant industry wise.
Even small waaghs have millions of orks in them.
The IoM is in 30k pretty casually able to throw thousands of ships our way with pretty little build up for them and millions of normal soldiers generally better equipped than in 40k and much, much larger amounts of space marines.
1. Scale we are operating currently even RL on a laughingly small for the ground parts of our military scale wise, same goes for the logistical backbone.
Think about how fucking small a max recruitment of ~1500 people per 5 years is and still struggling to equip them.
We need to grow by a few magnitudes in terms of our BAP before for things look better there.
2. The very core of this quest is logistics and that include the scaling of them.
This is seen by just how much of our focus is on the design, production and training of units compared to everything else.
No it's not.
That the thing, pretty much anything that matters in 30k, ignoring 40k is just going to roll over us and not even notice us because we are that insignificant industry wise.
Even small waaghs have millions of orks in them.
The IoM is in 30k pretty casually able to throw thousands of ships our way with pretty little build up for them and millions of normal soldiers generally better equipped than in 40k and much, much larger amounts of space marines.
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SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
The implication here is that the defacto normal way to play this out as Eldar is to hit that gain more bone singers action endlessly because its all you can do because that's all they did to generate industry and build shit. We don't have that issue our BAP can turn into foundries and forges to automate construction, but we need to have BAP to make doing so worthwhile.
Yes exactly, right now our craft world has essentially almost no industry at all. A 40k forgeworld from the mechanicus would in 1 year outscale our production in a hundred. We're operating on such a small scale we might as well be a micronation.
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- Location
- Seattle, Washington
I disagree. I am in agreement with Alectai that we can't go all in on industrial expansion, and that we should aim for a more balanced expenditure of bonesinger AP
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Its already kinda worthwhile? Like have you seen how many needlers and voidweave our two current foundries spit out?
And with the shrine of khaine we can automate that stuff. We can automate refits as gear becomes available. If anything we should be building *more* foundries all over the place and my one disappointment is that none of the favored plans really do that. So I just went with Alectai because I want to start poking at the engines.
If our engines are up and running then it doesnt matter how many Orks are in a waaaagh we can just skip town. We can leave. Thats one of the major strengths of the Aeldari and its why our allies wanted us to help fix their engines in exchange for their support and allegiance. That implies to me that our engines are also a critical thing.
Notice how our industry is not a line item on our critical task list. But our engines are. It says to me that its fine, and worth throwing stuff at our engines to get them started.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
This is what I mean about Alectais framing being dishonest, the leading build industry plan goes for 40% of our bone singer actions on building industry. More than half of the expenditure is on other things, None of the plans go all in which would be four EI actions.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
-[][BONESINGER] Enhance Industry (3 AP)
--[][FORGE] Use the Forge (One Turn Completion)
Thats what Alectai spends on enhance industry. Where are you getting 40% from?
I await your explanation with eagerness because the alternative does not look good on you.
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