A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)
- Location
- Earth
[X] Plan: The Aeldmoot
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uno2lylUdF8
Just found this Song from a LOL cinematic, that could become an easy anthem for our Craftworld if we just replace the word "call" "and fall" with VAUL.
It works very well because the lyrics are "Hold the last burning ember " and to "rise unto the
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[x] The Aeldmoot, Allies, and Administration V2
[X] Plan Biel-Tan Can't Touch This Finale
I think even small diplomatic advantages can compound at a major event like the Aldmoot, and that having our allies having stronger fleets sooner is much more important than having a small amount of extra infantry gear
What we're seeing in the winning plan is premature optimisation. A trickle of infantry gear a turn earlier is unlikely to ever matter. Getting our allies' fleets repaired a turn earlier is much more likely to, as is the likelihood of getting a more enthusiastic naval heavy Craftworld ally that's more willing to lend us its fleets.
The winning plan also criminally underuses the allied forces we've been leant, to the detriment of other allies and our long term opportunities. Having scout fleets sitting as a garrison rather than scouting just makes us look incompetent, and more likely to piss them off by and make it look like we can't be trusted to effectively deploy the assets we've borrowed, as we aren't making proper use of them.
I don't think we have existing construction lines sitting around. I think we're constructing new ones, as the options I quoted literally say we are.
We'll have to do refits, but that should be less expensive than building from scratch. And some things, like our base Bonesinger Hall we inherited from character creation, worked immediately after the Fall without needing refitting. Presumably there are more of those out there.
And I don't think finding more Forges of Vaul is impossible. There are a lot of dead worlds out there that were previously fully populated by Eldar.
I don't think even bound daemons are indefinitely stable in real space outside a Daemon World.
The mention of the True Stars we have in canon is that there are in fact a bunch of treasure hanging around that the Eldar are still recovering in 40K. The dangers are the likes of orks or hostile xenos having taken them over, and in rare cases surviving defences from the Pre-Fall era. Some of the later may be there, which we'd need to disarm or avoid.
[X] Plan Biel-Tan Can't Touch This Finale
I think even small diplomatic advantages can compound at a major event like the Aldmoot, and that having our allies having stronger fleets sooner is much more important than having a small amount of extra infantry gear
What we're seeing in the winning plan is premature optimisation. A trickle of infantry gear a turn earlier is unlikely to ever matter. Getting our allies' fleets repaired a turn earlier is much more likely to, as is the likelihood of getting a more enthusiastic naval heavy Craftworld ally that's more willing to lend us its fleets.
The winning plan also criminally underuses the allied forces we've been leant, to the detriment of other allies and our long term opportunities. Having scout fleets sitting as a garrison rather than scouting just makes us look incompetent, and more likely to piss them off by and make it look like we can't be trusted to effectively deploy the assets we've borrowed, as we aren't making proper use of them.
I don't think we have existing construction lines sitting around. I think we're constructing new ones, as the options I quoted literally say we are.
We'll have to do refits, but that should be less expensive than building from scratch. And some things, like our base Bonesinger Hall we inherited from character creation, worked immediately after the Fall without needing refitting. Presumably there are more of those out there.
And I don't think finding more Forges of Vaul is impossible. There are a lot of dead worlds out there that were previously fully populated by Eldar.
I don't think even bound daemons are indefinitely stable in real space outside a Daemon World.
The mention of the True Stars we have in canon is that there are in fact a bunch of treasure hanging around that the Eldar are still recovering in 40K. The dangers are the likes of orks or hostile xenos having taken them over, and in rare cases surviving defences from the Pre-Fall era. Some of the later may be there, which we'd need to disarm or avoid.
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[X] Plan Biel-Tan Can't Touch This Finale
This plan swaps bonesinger spend on engines and forges to focus on diplomacy by benefitting our allies more and increasing our base BAP in preparation for more allied industrial projects in the future. We still make a shrine of khaine this turn and start a hall of stewards.
The conversion shield pick is high power draw for compact (good for ships, vehicles and embedded in armour).
Edit: @Alratan , maybe you could vote for the plan above as well?
[x] The Aeldmoot, Allies, and Administration V2
This plan swaps bonesinger spend on engines and forges to focus on diplomacy by benefitting our allies more and increasing our base BAP in preparation for more allied industrial projects in the future. We still make a shrine of khaine this turn and start a hall of stewards.
The conversion shield pick is high power draw for compact (good for ships, vehicles and embedded in armour).
Edit: @Alratan , maybe you could vote for the plan above as well?
[x] The Aeldmoot, Allies, and Administration V2
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- Location
- Utrecht
I don't suppose you could be persuaded to go for the Runner up plan, which is a strong contender, rather than throwing your vote at one with barely a chance?
But that one also uses AP to make a forge, so I guess that's a bust too
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
You are ignoring the value of information. Right now, we've wasted far more AP due to misunderstandings, than due to incorrect build orders.
We should know precisely, what war forges do before we have to start designing, retrofitting, and so on.
I'm not. I just don't think we need the information for next turn, as I don't think we need to be doing wide scale refits yet, as our allied forces have significantly reduced the urgency, we're likely to need to spend an action next turn staffing our Hall of Stewards to make refitting less of a pain, and because I think that we're going to want to wait a couple more turns doing basic and advanced research before we do another round of designing and refitting because it's so expensive. I also think it's likely the Shrine will unlock Warrior projects that we want to do before we raise/refit new detachments that we'll also want to do in this time.
That's why I call it premature optimisation. We don't need to know it for turn 5. For turn 7, sure, this will be information we'll need to have then, so building a prototype forge in turn 6 would make a lot of sense. We're not there yet though, and so it's more valuable to spend those AP to fix shipyards two turns earlier so our coalition will have two turns worth more refitted or newly constructed ships rather than information we won't be making active use it and a trickle of infantry gear.
We certainly don't need to build two forges to get the information. If we learn that it produces a slow trickle until we've substantially increased our base industry that means we'll have inefficiently deployed twice as many BAP as we needed to.
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Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Our base industry is greater than that of major craftworlds. Right now we have no context as to what that means. We need to start somewhere and wraithweave and needlers are likely to be our basic line infantry so the more we have the better.
So we might as well start now and gather those hard numbers.
Edit: We have also been called out on our desire to rush everything all at once all the time when the design intent of the system is that we build a few factories here then we build a few more and a few more after that. We have so many things demanding our AP and it all needs to get done that we should be doing a little bit of everything rather than rushing a single project to completion. So again I don't understand the dislike of building factories for what will likely be our bread and butter gun.
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Given the level and kind of forces that our allies can provide, I disagree with the notion that we even want to produce basic infantry in the short or medium term. They can do that while we focus on supplying things we have an advantage in. Producing infantry less well protected than our allies' is not that.
And our level of industry is very much secondary to our inheritance from before the Fall and will probably be for centuries. Look at the size of our allied army and how long it would take us to manufacture their gear.
It's also astonishingly expensive in terms of Steward and Warrior AP to do so at large scale, and while I think that will get better as we improve our basic institutional infrastructure, building a large poorly equipped army from scratch will still take an extraordinarily long time to get to useful numbers.
We'd be better off producing a smaller much more heavily equipped forces
Starting atockpiling a trickle of infantry gear a turn or two earlier is much less valuable than significantly increasing the shipyard capacity of our coalition a turn or two earlier, as the repaired Shipyards can produce a much greater utility of military gear than the forges can.
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Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Well let's find out what the Shrine of khaine does if it does anything in addition to more warrior ap and what our Hall of Stewards does too before we start dismissing stuff out of hand.
Yes. Let's wait until we know what the Hall and Shrine do before prematurely building production infrastructure that the utility of is strongly dependent on what those facilities do.
That's exactly what I'm arguing, that building production facilities is premature.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
We need both. Why shouldn't we make both now that the pressure is off of us? We need both sets of information regardless of when we get it and the needler is unlikely to ever be not useful to us as a gun.
That's exactly what you're doing by rushing building two factories when we don't know what they do or what the rest of the recruitment, equipping process will look like, or even what shape our army or the other tech we'll have by the time we build it.
I don't think we know if the Needler will be our bread and butter gun. If we go with a high-low mix of us and our allies we may end up, say, using combi-gravs, or, if the way the production numbers line up for exotics we may be able to use Starblaster carbines for our small number of highly elite power armoured infantry
It think it's quite possible that we won't be using either pieces of equipment in our regular army because we don't know how they stack up to as yet unresearched other weapons, the shape or doctrine of that, or the relatively scarcities of exotic ingredients like StarCrystals to the production capacity of the automated forges.
We also don't know, for example, whether there'll be considerations around standardising equipment with our allies (there's a reason real world militaries are very keen on this and come to regret it when they can't), which might mean that it's actually more effective, for example, to standardise on something like Hellguns and duplicates of their Forgeguard Warsuit for any light troops we do have, for logistics reasons, even if they're individually less effective in some ways.
These are things where having a Ministry of Defence rationalising procurement and a General Staff that actually knows how armies work might let us/tell us to consider, but they simply aren't options we aren't aware of as we have neither institutions yet.
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That should be the general approach for eldar as a whole. They try in canon but even with Paths they barely reach it. Ithilmar is a step in the right direction.
Eldar almost never outnumber enemy forces. And you really don't want to be using militia for anything. So you need maximum concentration of power backed by maximum possible mobility to get the most of what you have. Heavy terminator level power armor with heavy weapons, built in numbers is a decent start.
We may want to spend some effort later on designing equipment for our allies to strengthen their own doctrines and remove possible flaws from their weapons, vehicles and armor.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
But we have some idea.
We know looking at Zhar-Tann we need some sort of basic line infantry. Needlers fill that role perfectly, and wraithweave does too. Unlike Zhar-Tann we have a population in the billions so we can afford to put out larger quantities of cheaper armor for our line infantry. So wraithweave fills that role too for a cheap affordable armor for our line infantry.
So because we need some sort of basic line infantry and we have a weapon and an armor to give them we need to start producing it and thus it is the perfect thing to experiment with. Maybe our industry won't be enough to produce it in useful quantities. But we won't know that unless we get a handle on exactly how much EP a factory produces.
- Location
- Utrecht
i am not fond of this u-turn.
Overnight, we apparently decided that our troops are going to be light infantry, rather than medium power armored.
I'll concede that having terminator equivalent infantry was a massive longshot, but now we don't even seem to be aiming for marine equivalent?
Edit: We made VGA for our line infantry, and ithilmar for our elites.
Then we maxe 2/3 troop choices use ithilmar. 2 days later.
And now we're not going to use any of those because it's too expensive?
Leopards ate my face moment.
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We know that we need line infantry or equivalent to hold ground. Do we want to hold any ground besides the Craftworld? What's its purpose?
What are you trying to conquer that you want line infantry as part of the main forces instead of relegating it to militia for Craftworld defense?
Ithilmar are perfectly capable of mowing down enemy infantry and dealing with vehicles if they get proper support. And most of our current military plans are either in support of allies or ork extermination missions where bombing them from orbit is a much better solution than putting the boots on the ground and trying to brawl with the green hordes. And if you want to take out planetary shields you again need Ithilmar not line infantry.
We know that Zhar-Tann seems to have started with an army that contained a lot of light infantry, probably inherited from before the Fall when things worked very differently and the Eldar had very different constraints. They may have had lots of light infantry because death didn't matter and they thought it was more fun to fight orks on medium rather than easy difficulty mode, and it was filthy casuals who resorted to heavier gear because they had skill issues.
That does not mean that it's a good idea for them now, just that it's the army they have so that's the army they need to go to war with. You fight with the army you have, not the army you want.
Also, even if it works for Zhar-Tann now does not mean it works for us. We have a massively different starting setup, with different culture and institutions and (lack of) stockpiles.
Thirdly, Zhar-Tann doing it means that we don't need to. If we are stable allies duplicating their existing capabilities rather than adding something new to our allied forces overall capabilties is just foolish, losing an opportunity to create a greater whole that's more than the some of its parts.
Fourthly, the missions Zhar-Tann envisages for its forces may be different to the missions we envisage, meaning that we want a different force profile.
For example, light infantry are the kind of thing you need it you want to take and hold ground. I don't believe that we do.
This is itself a big problem, we're committing BP to permanently build an equipment stockpile before deciding what we actually want our military to do in the short or medium term. A combination of the sunk cost fallacy and that when you have a hammer you focus on looking for nails could semi-trap us in an undesirable military posture as a result of wanting to validate that this was a good choice.
What do we need our army for?
Are we conquering worlds? No, any worlds we attack we'll probably orbitally bombard.
Are we sending out looting expeditions to recover the treasures of the Dominion? We may want to, but light infantry are terrible for that. You probably want super-heavy infantry.
Are we sending aid to help defend allied Craftworlds from orks. Possibly, but again that's not a light infantry job, you want artillery and heavy weapons for that.
Generally, needlers and brigantine seem designed to solve a problem that Zhar-Tann has already solved for us, and even then we don't anticipate even needing to solve the problem that often. Worse, if we do need to duplicate their capability then we should probably actually duplicate it and equip our light infantry identically to their's to make interoperability easier.
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- Location
- Utrecht
also, 1 guy in Ithilmar (23) with a Fatesplitter carbine(7) (~30 EP) vs 5 guys with needlers (4) and wraithweave (2) (~30 EP)?
My money is still on the ithilmar suit, outside of a white room scenario.
Edit: corrected the maths to match EP costs
My money is still on the ithilmar suit, outside of a white room scenario.
Edit: corrected the maths to match EP costs
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- Location
- Germany
Not sure where the Brigantine is going to be our main armor is coming from, VGA is too expensive and let's equip everyone with needlers is coming from.
Because that is pretty damn false.
This the goal is still VGA or better for everyone and plasma weaponry everywhere.
- Location
- Reno Nv
[x] The Aeldmoot, Allies, and Administration V2
We need to get the VGA ticking and start getting our general buildings up and running. Hopefully, we can get more actions or more combined actions for less AP.
We need to get the VGA ticking and start getting our general buildings up and running. Hopefully, we can get more actions or more combined actions for less AP.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
RandomTechPriest
He Who Steals Toasters
After thinking about it, I think most of our military problems can be solved by producing more Starcrystals. Arming everyone with Starblaster Carbines would remove the need for large and expensive anti-tank weapons and would simplify logistics massively. No need to toy with unit compositions when everyone has a anti-everything on hand.
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