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A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

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[X] Anvil of Sundering (Starlance Salvage edition)
-[X] Heavy Grav-Tank
-[X] Trade in for mounts: -2 Vehicle, -1 Heavy, -2 Ranged +1 Superheavy (-19 Slots)
-[X] Defenses: 1x Holo-Field, 3x Grav Shields (108 EP)
-[X] Weapons: 2x SH Starlance, 1x H. Needler (710 EP, 90 Starcrystal)

Don't really see a need to give this one any transport capacity.

[X] Star Flare Skimmer refit (138 EP, 16 starcrystals, 2 Fate psyscopes)
-[X] Speeder
-[X] Trade in 3 system slots for 1 Heavy slot
-[X] Weapons: 2 Starcarvers (60 EP, 16 starcrystals), 2 Fatespitter carbines (14 EP, 2 Fate Psyscopes)
-[X] Defense: Holo-Field (18 EP)

I think for a Fast Attack slot this might work better? Starcarvers are still twice as powerful as a Lascannon, so this should still do fine against most non-Superheavy vehicles (and even heavier tanks won't be immune), plus it has two Needler rifles to help against infantry.

Edit: @Karugus pointed out that the Star Flare Skimmer already exists, which I'd completely forgotten about but is basically this without the Holo fields. So I'm perfectly happy making this refit to add on that Holo field and probably upgrade the crew's gear as well.
 
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I think we're much better served by a lot of cheap speeder tank killers instead of a few expensive ones. We will just make the squadrons bigger.
 
Skjadir said:
Only Design here that I think will actually get build, and mostly because of the recycling potential.

The rest so far all seem way too heavy on the exotics for us to actually add to detachments (and then mass produced with foundries) or retrofitted with using EP here.
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Are you serious? The Blazestar is carrying the only weapon on the Aurora, and the Needlestorm is carrying 80 EP out of the 170 EP of weaponry on the Hailstorm. After salvage, the Hailstorm only costs something like 2 PS and 8 SC- and we have a ton of Needlestorms. It's not like ~10 PS and 16 SC for a pair of tanks a turn is some unsustainable factory production either.

The Aurora I can see as being somewhat questionable given we only have ~16 Blazestars or so, but the others are getting something like half of their weapons for free. And you were the one crowing about how these were all short term designs anyways.
Karnax626 said:
I think for a Fast Attack slot this might work better? Starcarvers are still twice as powerful as a Lascannon, so this should still do fine against most non-Superheavy vehicles (and even heavier tanks shouldn't be immune), plus it has two Needler rifles to help against infantry.
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My thinking is that our jetbikes are providing a lot of the anti-infantry role in fast attack. And these kinda just look like our Star Flares with defenses strapped to them- at this point I'd just leave the Fatesplitter carbines from the Star Flares on these things. 2 PS and ~6 EP more aren't going to hurt things but takes better advantage of salvage.
 
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Karugus said:
[X] Hailstorm Grav-Tank (402 EP, 5 Psy-Scope)
-[X] Light Grav Vehicle (154 EP)
-[X] Trade in for mounts: +1 Vehicle, -1 Heavy, -4
-[X] Defenses: 1x Holo-Field, 2x Grav Shields (78 EP)
-[X] Weapons: 1 Fateshredder Cannon + 1 Fatesever Cannon (in the turret), 1 Starcaster (driver operated) (170 EP, 5 Psy-scopes, 8 SC)
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I think you meant a Starcarver, i don't think you can put a Pilot Operated Starcaster Mega-Lance in there. :V
 
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vsh said:
I think we're much better served by a lot of cheap speeder tank killers instead of a few expensive ones. We will just make the squadrons bigger.
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We have to ask then... what a cheap speeder does better than a Bright Talon or equivalent heavy jetbike?
Xavies said:
I think you meant a Starcarver, i don't think you can put a Pilot Operated Starcaster Mega-Lance in there. :V
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If Necrons can get Tachyon arrows than we get pilot operated Mega-lances :V
 
Karugus said:
Are you serious? The Blazestar is carrying the only weapon on the Aurora, and the Needlestorm is carrying 80 EP out of the 170 EP of weaponry on the Hailstorm. After salvage, the Hailstorm only costs something like 2 PS and 8 SC- and we have a ton of Needlestorms. It's not like ~10 PS and 16 SC for a pair of tanks a turn is some unsustainable factory production either.

The Aurora I can see as being somewhat questionable given we only have ~16 Blazestars or so, but the others are getting something like half of their weapons for free. And you were the one crowing about how these were all short term designs anyways.
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Yes, because retrofitting vehicles has either a really high EP start up cost or is really AP intensive.

You can only do the retro fitting if you have finished vehicles around that you can swap. That means building them from scratch.
Then you can retro fit what ever you just got back, it reduces the EP cost for the future, but the initial EP cost is pretty damn high if you don't want to spend a ton of AP as you cycle stuff out piecemeal for a ton of AP.

We are really constrained on EP for the retrofits because I doubt we will get more than 4 Forge AP into that before it will get drawn to other stuff. And of these, at least 3 AP will go into our infantry to give them even the most basic armor that actually works.

So that leaves 1 Forge AP left over, that likely is going to be a mix of infantry weapons and some vehicles.
Said vehicles are most likely going to be a few super heavy tanks so they can get added into the heavy detachments, due to lack of options against super heavy units.
 
Skjadir said:
Yes, because retrofitting vehicles has either a really high EP start up cost or is really AP intensive.

You can only do the retro fitting if you have finished vehicles around that you can swap. That means building them from scratch.
Then you can retro fit what ever you just got back, it reduces the EP cost for the future, but the initial EP cost is pretty damn high if you don't want to spend a ton of AP as you cycle stuff out piecemeal for a ton of AP.

We are really constrained on EP for the retrofits because I doubt we will get more than 4 Forge AP into that before it will get drawn to other stuff. And of these, at least 3 AP will go into our infantry to give them even the most basic armor that actually works.

So that leaves 1 Forge AP left over, that likely is going to be a mix of infantry weapons and some vehicles.
Said vehicles are most likely going to be a few super heavy tanks so they can get added into the heavy detachments, due to lack of options against super heavy units.
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The vehicle refits probably aren't even going to be done in time for the initial clash with Biel-Tan regardless, and the super heavy you've decided passed muster isn't going to be viable before turn 4 anyways considering it's far and away dependent on Assault Ketch salvage that can only begin turn 3.

The Fateshredders you balk at taking advantage of only requires a startup fee of ~400 EP for 5 tanks initially, and then just refitting 5 more Needlestorms each turn after. We have no reason to assume we can even refit existing vehicles with the factory infrastructure mechanics and I'm not going to assume we can so any vehicle refit that doesn't want to waste our existing vehicle pool is likely dependent on VAP in the long run anyways. This seems the very definition of insisting on a short term solution when the short term solution probably isn't going to arrive in time as is. We still need more Mirages, we still need infantry gear, and there's only so cheap we can make our vehicles in the first place.

Throwing away thousands of EP of wargear for who knows how long to try and rush build a bunch of vehicles that likely won't be available in time anyways just seems shortsighted. I'll just agree to disagree, yours and mine perspective on what kind of equipment is good for long term service has been worlds apart in the past.
 
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Karugus said:
My thinking is that our jetbikes are providing a lot of the anti-infantry role in fast attack. And these kinda just look like our Star Flares with defenses strapped to them- at this point I'd just leave the Fatesplitter carbines from the Star Flares on these things. 2 PS and ~6 EP more aren't going to hurt things but takes better advantage of salvage.
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I'd completely missed them, that makes this much easier. Edited it into my vote to just make it a refit and add a Holo field. The Star Flare being a Heavy Support makes it a bit weird, but I suppose we can justify by saying we're moving overall towards having heavier vehicles and armour, so what was once a Heavy Support now counts as a Fast Attack.

Though that does make the costing weird, because I don't see how the base chassis can cost 37? The Star Flare costs 120, so adding on a Holo field makes it 138, but that should make the chassis around 43 EP accounting for the 2 Starcarvers (60), 2 Fatespitters (14) and of crew armour (3).
 
Karnax626 said:
I'd completely missed them, that makes this much easier. Edited it into my vote to just make it a refit and add a Holo field. The Star Flare being a Heavy Support makes it a bit weird, but I suppose we can justify by saying we're moving overall towards having heavier vehicles and armour, so what was once a Heavy Support now counts as a Fast Attack.

Though that does make the costing weird, because I don't see how the base chassis can cost 37? The Star Flare costs 120, so adding on a Holo field makes it 138, but that should make the chassis around 43 EP accounting for the 2 Starcarvers (60), 2 Fatespitters (14) and of crew armour (3).
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Yeah, I think was taking off the crew's armor or something to that effect. Besides I'm pretty sure the original starlance skimmer idea was posited by someone else earlier in the thread and I added it to the Notepad*tm until a suitable vote occurred so I probably didn't hard check the numbers as thoroughly as I should have.

Edit: I'm still not a big fan of the Star Flare's layout given it can only bring half of it's firepower to bear on each flank, I know you're proposing it as a pretty 1-1 refit but you might want to phrase it as more of a Hornet/ heavier Vyper style skimmer that carries the starcarvers in a turret and the fatesplitters as a set of pilot operated weapons
 
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[X] "Forgehammer" Main Battle Tank (Max slots)
-[X] Light Grav-Vehicle Chassis
-[X] 1x Starlance (Vehicle Slot)
-[X] 1x Spike Cannon, 1x Heavy Needler (Heavy Slot)
-[X] Vehicle Holo-Field
-[X] 2x Vehicle Grav-Shield
-[X] Convert 4 System Slots -> 1 Heavy + 1 Ranged Slot
-[X] 1x Starcarver (Heavy Slot)
-[X] 1x Needler Rifle (Regular Slot)
-[X] (Crew Equipment), Void Guard Armour, Spike Rifle, CCW Knife.

[X] "Chisel" Fast Assault Skimmer
-[X] Skimmer Chassis
-[X] 1x Starcarver, 1x Fatecaster Rifle (Heavy Slot).
-[X] 2x Needler Rifles (Ranged Slot)
-[X] 1x Vehicle Holo-Field
-[X] Convert 3 System Slots -> 1 Heavy Slot.
-[X] (Crew Equipment) Void Guard Armour, Flamer Pistol + CCW

[ ] Suncleave Heavy Tank

I hope no one has trouble with me breaking up a plan like this, but I prefer Suncleave for a Titan killer over Anvil. I'm just waiting for the author to post finalized design before marking.
 
I feel kinda silly asking, but are the bare chassis costs (without equipment) written anywhere? Or is everyone just subtracting the cost of weapons from the costs in the armory? Edit: Nevermind 🤦‍♂️

I was reading about the Craftworld Eldar vehicles, and came across the Lynx... which seems to be the only canonical instance of a vehicle based on the Heavy Grav Vehicle Chassis. Smaller than an Engine of Vaul (superheavy), but bigger than a Falcon (Light grav vehicle).
And the second notable feature (after the single superheavy weapon) is a Titan-scale holo field.

@Mechanis: Can we cut down a starship grade holo-field or grav-shield for putting on a heavy grav vehicle? Or is that something that will be unlocked with research down the line?
 
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IronFist said:
I feel kinda silly asking, but are the bare chassis costs (without equipment) written anywhere? Or is everyone just subtracting the cost of weapons from the costs in the armory?
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AFAIK everyone just doing the latter.
Karugus said:
We have to ask then... what a cheap speeder does better than a Bright Talon or equivalent heavy jetbike?
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I tried to design one now and I concur I don't have a viable design. A cheap vehicle weapon technical can be printed 2 to 1 compared to your design but it's like twice as bad or worse. If we had good cheap vehicle grade AA/anti-infantry gun (like potential 16-barreled heavy needler), or a melta, or plasma, or rockets - it would make sense. As is, out of cheap options we can only put a shitty lascannon there or an ok spike cannon, both of which lose to exotics a lot.

A couple of joke design:
[] Disco-pattern Medium Grav Tank
- [] Heavy Grav-Vehicle
- [] Refund Superheavy slot for 3 Vehicle Weapons slots
- [] Install additional 4 Vehicle Weapon slots (24 SS) and 1 Ranged slot (1 SS)
- [] 9xLascannons (180 EP)
- [] 2xHeavy Flamers (12 EP)
- [] 3xNeedler Rifle (18 EP)
- [] Holo-Field (2 SS, 18 EP)
- [] Grav-Shield (3 SS, 30 EP)
For a total of about 400 EP

Lightly armored and shielded, this Lascannon platform can be made in good quantities and can dispose of enemy's light to medium vehicles and heavy fliers with prejudice.

[] Needlestorm Medium Grav Tank
- [] Heavy Grav-Vehicle
- [] Refund Superheavy slot for 3 Vehicle Weapons slots, 5 Vehicle slots for 10 Heavy slots
- [] Install additional 8 Heavy Weapon slots (24 SS) and 1 Ranged slot (1 SS)
- [] 20xHeavy Needlers (200 EP)
- [] 3xFlamers (18 EP)
- [] Holo-Field (2 SS, 18 EP)
- [] Grav-Shield (3 SS, 30 EP)

The ultimate AA and anti-infantry platform can cover the battlefield in four detachments' worth of needles. This shreds any infantry short of the heaviest one, and any light vehicle or a flier that relies on evasion or holofield for defense.
 
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[] Titan-slayer MK I: Ingot
-[] Heavy Grav-Tank
-[] Defenses: 1x Holo-Field, 3x Grav Shields (108 EP)
-[] Weapons: 1xStarblade (400EP, 50 SC), 2xVehicle Spike Cannons (50 EP), 2xHeavy Needlers (20EP), 2xStarblaster Rifles (20EP, 4 SC)

Still has 19 Open Slots (hence the Ingot designation), but hopefully that will make fitting new wargear we will eventually start making cheaper.

Using the Starblade instead of recycling two Starlances is expensive, but oneshotting anything but the largest of titans is probably worth it.

The other upside is that we don't have to wait to refit the Navy (minimum 2 turns) before we can make this one.
 
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Stop putting our exotic weapons on light skimmers because 'they're better than spikes'. Yes, we know that! We already have speeder bikes with exotic weapons! We don't want more of those, because they're too expensive to manufacture on mass! We need to spend 90% of our Starcrystal to manufacture 2 war ketches per turn! We need starcrystal for our superheavy titan-hunters! We need it for our infantry rifles-stop putting it everywhere!

[X] "Poison Rose" Fast Assault Skimmer
-[X] Skimmer Chassis
-[X] Trade 2x ranged Mount for 1 System slot
-[X] Install 1x Vehicular Weapon Mount
-[X] 1x Spike Cannon (Vehicle Slot)
-[X] 1x Heavy Needler (Heavy Slot)
-[X] (Crew Equipment) Wraithweave Brigantine, BYOG(Bring Your Own Gun)

[X] "Nailstorm" Infantry Fighting Vehicle
-[X] Light Grav-Vehicle chassis
-[X] Spike Cannon
-[X] 3x System Slots for 1 Heavy Weapon slot
-[X] Heavy Needler x3
-[X] 6 Infantry Capacity (Enclosed)
-[X] Holofield
-[X] 1 Empty system slot for upgrades

[X] Cloudburst Mortar Assault Skimmer
 
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Okay, I have a working design of a skimmer technical that a) plays a role in our army that's currently not occupied b) is going to be auto-ugraded as we develop more tech, no AP required c) is not very expensive.

[x] Cloudburst Mortar Assault Skimmer
-[X] Skimmer Chassis
-[X] Install 1x extra Heavy mount (3 SS)
-[X] 2xScreamer Grenade Launcher (8 EP) in a back turret, twin-linked, operated by the same gunner
-[X] 2xSpike Rifle(10 EP), twin-linked, driver-operated
-[X] Holo-field (2SS, 18EP)
Going to cost us around 80-90 EP.

Right now it's just a fast disruption platform, not very useful, but we will keep getting more grenades - Krak, Frag, Smoke, Plasma, Haywire, Monofilament, maybe Grav etc etc and make them fit for our grenade launcher, and this platform will only become better and better with time. Works wonders against eldar (holofields don't help as much) and against massed infantry of orks. 2-person crew will make it cheap to operate. Holofield is good enough to defend its cheap guns and small crew.

[x] Anvil of Stars Titankiller
(to not lose my other vote)

IronFist said:
The other upside is that we don't have to wait to refit the Navy (minimum 2 turns) before we can make this one.
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We don't need to wait to make our superheavy tank, it's just more economical to wait.

EDIT: Oleander -> Cloudburst
 
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Do Eldars use medivac vehicles? It seems they might and us in particular, since we're not militant. Perhaps crank out some Jetbikes with holofields so that we could snatch wounded heroes off the battlefield?
 
[x] Cloudburst Mortar Assault Skimmer
[X] Aurora Tank Destroyer(164 EP, 20 starcrystals)
[X] Hailstorm Grav-Tank (402 EP, 5 Psy-Scope)
[X] Suncleave Heavy Tank (796EP 68SC 6PS 30 System Slots)
[X] "Vaul's Anvil" Superheavy Grav-Tank (Revamped)
 
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IronFist said:
Maybe train a special unit of biomancers and put them in power armour on heavy jetbikes?

In Vau-Vaukesh, medic finds you.
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Pretty much vetoed because that would use our seer AP almost certainly to train even a small group and the amount of AP we would have to use to provide even basic coverage is ... bad.

Edit: what we might be able to pull is a special medic detachment that is stuffed full of transports and a core of medics / biomencers that then gets attached to a warhost.
 
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Skjadir said:
Pretty much vetoed because that would use our seer AP almost certainly to train even a small group and the amount of AP we would have to use to provide even basic coverage is ... bad.

Edit: what we might be able to pull is a special medic detachment that is stuffed full of transports and a core of medics / biomencers that then gets attached to a warhost.
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It could also work like a Warseer attachment... except with different Powers.

And it doesn't have to be done immediately either.

It's still a good idea. If Space marines can have apothecaries, we can have field medics.
 
Small update to my vote:
[X] Anvil of Sundering (Starlance Salvage edition)
[X] Cloudburst Mortar Assault Skimmer

Like the Cloudburst, that one might actually turn into a long term vehicle.

Karugus said:
The vehicle refits probably aren't even going to be done in time for the initial clash with Biel-Tan regardless, and the super heavy you've decided passed muster isn't going to be viable before turn 4 anyways considering it's far and away dependent on Assault Ketch salvage that can only begin turn 3.

The Fateshredders you balk at taking advantage of only requires a startup fee of ~400 EP for 5 tanks initially, and then just refitting 5 more Needlestorms each turn after. We have no reason to assume we can even refit existing vehicles with the factory infrastructure mechanics and I'm not going to assume we can so any vehicle refit that doesn't want to waste our existing vehicle pool is likely dependent on VAP in the long run anyways. This seems the very definition of insisting on a short term solution when the short term solution probably isn't going to arrive in time as is. We still need more Mirages, we still need infantry gear, and there's only so cheap we can make our vehicles in the first place.

Throwing away thousands of EP of wargear for who knows how long to try and rush build a bunch of vehicles that likely won't be available in time anyways just seems shortsighted. I'll just agree to disagree, yours and mine perspective on what kind of equipment is good for long term service has been worlds apart in the past.
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Let's go this

Turn 3:The first retrofit likely a pretty sweeping one to get a lot of our troops into Brigandine + potentially get the Assault militia some flamers. Uses the gear produced in turn 2.
Very likely get an additional 1-2 Forge AP for more gear production, at least 5k of that go into more armor and likely some weapon upgrades away from lasguns for the infantry to cover our entire army,
We are also likely to form the rest of the militia units into 1-2 pretty chunky warhosts.
Depending on Bonesinger AP usage, get Grenades and Melta weapons done, Plasma weapons are done from the Seeker side of things
- Biel-Tan attack hits double dignit % of happening

Turn 4: Second round of retrofit , covers the rest of the infantry armor likely some weapon upgrades.
Depending on Bonesinger AP, plasma weapons unlocked,
??? status on the gravity weapons potentially another turn before seekers are done.
Conversion Fields finish at the end of this turn from the seeker side.

Likely 1 Forge AP to get some anti-superheavy vehicles done
Second Forge AP very likely to got to something else.

Turn 5. Likely last round of retrofit for a while, get the anti-superheavies into our heavy detachments.
Conversion fields might become available as gear, unknown what other gear.
High potential for new vehicle designs using the new weapons, either that turn or turn 6.

Likely no Forge AP on EP gear production, likely be used to boost out foundries, engine repair or getting more ships repaired
-If lucky the Biel-Tan attack didn't happen before this turn, very likely now I think

Turn 6:
Design of new vehicles, squads and getting new detachments is likely to be done now with all the new tech.
Likely going to outright replace a lot of designs we made before this, because we have (much) better options for non-exotic weapons.

Laying the Foundations, for us knowing what we need to mass produces with foundries. New Detachments might start to be raised around turn 9-11 Depending on how many foundries are build and the output of them on a per-turn basis.

Forge likely still used on Infrastructure / getting the foundries that we need a larger number of done faster.

At least that is the one of the ways I see this to go if we don't invest a shit ton more Forge AP into trying to surge out more gear, after the infantry basic upgrade is done.

Keeping in mind what a fight, the Forge AP usage is going to become in a very short amount of time and after the first Biel-Tan attack. I personally don't think more direct Forge AP or much in the way of Bonesinger AP is going to happen.


All of this results in me thinking that most of the vehicles we design now are never going to be actually build/retrofitted because better versions become available directly when we might build some.
Add in that most of the versions design now are quite EP heavy due to exotic weapon usage (because we need to build a few from scratch at first before we can cycle them in for the old stuff) and I think the EP for that will not be available to build some for retrofitting while we are doing that.
 
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IronFist said:
It's still a good idea. If Space marines can have apothecaries, we can have field medics.
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Is this something that can be done now? If not, just the part when we grab our guys and drive them to behind-the-lines hospitals could work.

BTW, are these holo-fields the sort that make you invisible or can they "display" images? Can we do some sort of decoy drones with them? Our enemies are more numerous than us, sometimes significantly so. No reason not to give them extra targets to shoot at.
 
My third design is just a heavy brawler tank. It's not packing a superheavy gun and not using any exotics, so hopefully it's something we can build a factory for, it offers the best protection we can offer now, and it's devasting to non-titans at close to medium range. it should also be just shy of 500 EP with crew, so we can make them even this turn if we so wish.

[x] Kapok Heavy Brawler
- [x] Heavy Grav-Vehicle
- [x] Refund Superheavy slot for 3 Vehicle Weapons slots
- [x] Install 3 additional Vehicle Weapon slots (18 SS) and 1 Ranged slot (1 SS)
- [x] 2xVehicle Lascannon(40 EP)
- [x] 6xSpike Cannons (150 EP)
- [x] 2xHeavy Needlers (20 EP)
- [x] 3xFlamers (6 EP)
- [x] Holo-Field (2 SS, 18 EP)
- [x] Grav-Shield x3 (9 SS, 90 EP)

I'm not too fond of this design very much tbh, it packs a lot of weapons but lacks specialist ones. Also I'd prefer put in conversion shield and/or armor reinforcement before instead of one of the extra guns. I think we would redo this design before we make a single one. But I struggle to come up with something useful right now. Maybe a cheap (500 EP-ish) superheavy we'll make two of right this turn just in case and never make more of?


[x] Vaul's Toothpick Titankiller
- [x] Heavy Grav-Vehicle
- [x] Add 3 extra Vehicle slots (18 SS)
- [x] 1xSuperheavy Spike Cannon
- [x] 5xVehicle Lascannon(100 EP)
- [x] 2xHeavy Needlers (20 EP)
- [x] 2xFlamers (4 EP)
- [x] Holo-Field (2 SS, 18 EP)
- [x] Grav-Shield x3 (9 SS, 90 EP)
- [x] 1xEnclosed Infantry Space (1 SS)

It has a space for a Warseer attached, which if present would elevate Spike Cannon efficiency closer to Fatesheer level. It's going to be just a tad over 500 EP if I understand right.



Obligatory older votes
[X] Cloudburst Mortar Assault Skimmer
[x] Anvil of Stars Titankiller

Helping the more economical design win:
[X] Anvil of Sundering (Starlance Salvage edition)
 
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