Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Is this turn counting as two months then?
No, it's just that we already know from last turn that if we decide to build the adminsitration center, we'll also have to vote on where to construct it on the lakeside (we even know roughly what the options are: near the river's mouth for ease of expansion, at the cliff face for defense, or between the two, near the docks for a central position that'll help intercity communication)
 
Well, it's not sure that we'll choose the Admin Center.
It will depend on the new options unlocked, in particular on how much permanent population they give.
I'm sure someone will do the math.
After all, it's quite pointless to finish the Admin Center and have it waiting without taking the "turn into Hamlet" project because we are lacking population.
 
Well, it's not sure that we'll choose the Admin Center.
It will depend on the new options unlocked, in particular on how much permanent population they give.
I'm sure someone will do the math.
After all, it's quite pointless to finish the Admin Center and have it waiting without taking the "turn into Hamlet" project because we are lacking population.
Right now, if we start the admin center and we manage to get 1 additionnal permanent population/month, we'll have the population and the administration center needed to upgrade to hamlet exactly at the same time, no ankward time where we fill one requirement and not the other (though that probably means we'll need to use population drives)
 
I've been convinced to finish the fief as soon as possible for narrative reasons (scree the math), so I'm voting for anything that lets.us bring Qingge and co to the fief faster, especially with House of Ling.

I'm also voting for anything that unlocks the Shrine of Snowblossom quest (but doesn't start it). I want to pair the MoSS capstone with that for extra oomph.
 
I've been convinced to finish the fief as soon as possible for narrative reasons (scree the math), so I'm voting for anything that lets.us bring Qingge and co to the fief faster, especially with House of Ling.

I'm also voting for anything that unlocks the Shrine of Snowblossom quest (but doesn't start it). I want to pair the MoSS capstone with that for extra oomph.
Well, all those things probably require hamlet :D
 
Turn 19: Arc 1-2
"You are welcome Baroness. On the matter of the accidents, let us speak at the end of today's session," Cao Chun said curtly.

Ling Qi nodded, hearing the polite dismissal for what it was. She could sense the Wang functionary hovering just out of their conversation screening range too after all. "Yes, we will. And I believe Lady Cai will be amenable to your suggestion."

"I would be thankful."

She bowed, he lowered his head, and they parted ways. Ling Qi wove back toward the table, stopping briefly to speak with a Luo courtier. They were interested to know her opinion on the matter of sedentary versus nomadic judges, that is magistrates who performed a circuit among settlements rather than staying in one.

Reading between the lines, the Luo were probably interested in distributing the infrastructure on the southern border rather than seeing it all gathered here at the current embassy.

She'd keep that in mind. Maybe a promise to expand later? She didn't think there was enough throughput for more outposts yet.

…Besides, she couldn't say she fully trusted establishing more potential points for failure and conflict before this one was even proven.

Passing out of the conversation, she arrived at Cai Renxiang's side as the other girl was leaving her own conversation, and conveyed the deal.

"A Ministry selected judge from the peaks? Doable," she said thoughtfully. "There are few methods of gaining the Ministries support which will not cost some influence, given their goals…"

"But on the matter of Law, closest to their root expertise, I think it is where that cost is lowest," Ling Qi agreed.

"Yes. You have my approval for this. Do you have a position prepared for the clans?"

"I have thoughts, but Lady Cai is still more familiar."

Her liege frowned, looking past her toward the chatting nobles. Ling Qi's eyes wandered. Meng Dan was conferring with his uncle, who was watching everyone with a severe expression. Wang Lian was standing with her hands behind her back, talking to Inzha. Luo Jie was now speaking with Cao Chun, and Jaromila was talking to Dzintara and another older woman with an intricate headscarf and religious markings on her clothes.

"Legitimacy. That the throne is paying attention provides our endeavor legitimacy. We have our own judge, standing equal, we are allowing this, in good faith. We are a province which demands that much respect."

Ling Qi nodded, even as across the room, Jaromila caught her eye.

"I see that is a working lead. I think the implication that it is better for us to see the thrones agents than not works as well?" Ling Qi asks.

"So long as it remains an implication," Cai Renxiang agreed.

"Agreed," Ling Qi said. "Excuse me, Lady Cai."

Cai Renxiang nodded, and turned to look at Meng Dan who was approaching with his hands clasped. She gave him a small smile and passed him by, heading for Jaromila, by a slightly meandering route.

"Emissary Ling Qi. It is good to see things are proceeding so civilly, is it not?" the blonde woman said as she came near.

"It is, Emissary Jaromila," Ling Qi said. She did not bow this time, remembering herself. Instead she took Jaromila's outstretched arm, clasping it around the wrist for several seconds. Jaromila did the same to her, iron nails were sharp on her skin even through her dress. This was, she had learned a somewhat familiar gesture for the Polar Nation. So it implied a degree of trust and closeness to hold it this long without testing each other's strength.

The older woman standing with them frowned a little, though Dzintara merely pursed her lips. "I hope that everyone is feeling their concerns borne out?"

"I feel decorum could be better kept through a speaking scepter, but things are managing without," Dzintara said.

That was their method for these 'things' to have some badge or idol which conferred permission to speak while informing others to listen. It had been proposed, but got bogged down in arguments over what the etiquette for passing it would be.

"I hope that future summits can refine our methods," Ling Qi said. "For now I think freer debate is serving us well."

"It is. There is too much to discuss and too many disagreements for the single speaker methods to work here," Jaromila said. "I think talks on identification methods for border crossing are going well?"

"They are, though I hope you will forgive Inspector Cao and some of our delegates for their bluntness. Cloud tribe raids and our security are not distant matters to them," Ling Qi said, putting just a little apology into her voice.

"No one has gone beyond the bounds of slightly heated debate, yet," Dzintara said grudgingly. "Nonetheless, we will need guarantees that your 'concerns' do not allow malicious actors."

"I understand, we will find a method which everyone can accept," Ling Qi said positively.

"The young Emissary is very confident," the old woman said. "But do you truly speak with such weight?"

Her accent was thick and her words a little odd and halting.

"Their people aim for ascension more commonly than ours," Jaromila said firmly.

"But the ascended speak for themselves, who do you speak for? What voice do you channel," the old woman asked.

Ling Qi took it in stride. "Right now, I speak for her grace, our Duchess, Master of the Divine Pillar Xiangmen. I hope that is enough. You have not after all, brought Crowfather, or any other here for debate."

"It would be madness," The woman said. "But, you do not wear her mantle, the one you call liege does, yet you are called Emissary. Is it only because your mantle is akin to ours. A sop for this history we once shared?"

"Priestess, you are being rude," Jaromila said, frowning.

Ling Qi raised a hand, forestalling her though. "It's true, our methods are not at all the same. All of the effort to find commonality is an exercise in making everyone as comfortable as possible. I do not think this is necessarily bad. I am not treading the path of any one spirit or god, but rather making my own. This is the way that we do things."

"I thought I understood this, until I came here and witnessed it."

"I agree, but I do not find there methods, completely heterodox, after spending longer on it," Dzintara said. "It is possible to recombine different paths. More than that, Emissary Ling Qi words and intentions are matched."

Ling Qi gave the other woman a surprised, but grateful glance. Dzintara merely regarded her stonily under her woven headscarf.

The older woman nodded, pursing her lips. "She may. But their walking god is down among these mountains. Every seer in ten thousand leagues can feel her, burning their eyes and deafening their ears. How is this to be taken as peaceful intention?"

"It is a threat, but not for you," Ling Qi said. The Duchess was here to oversee the war. "Emissary Jaromila must have told you of the Twelve Stars Titan."

"That creature was certainly some type of demon," Jaromila said. "As unsettling as the elders of this Argent Sect were, they could not compare to that foul crumbling star."

"I have heard this, yes," the priestess.said. "And the portents are bad here. It is true that the Sibiar once allied and mingled with your ancestors…"

It was gratifying to hear that plainly accepted.

"But this whole situation is… difficult, divination is too uncertain here."

But it was of course, only ever a foot in the door. "Divination is a useful tool, but those of us who are still here cannot expect to know everything that is coming. I feel overreliance on future telling is bad."

"It is not to be treated as the whole truth, only an aid," Dzintara said. "Still I understand this discomfort. It is difficult to see peace among all the fires burning here."

"Which is why it is our duty to do so," Jaromila said.

"It is," The priestess said. Eyeing Ling Qi, she seemed to come to a conclusion. "You say all these concerns are in good faith. Very well, so are ours. It is not enough for there to be judges alone. Judges can only hear the evidence brought before them, though a good one can see lies for what they are. Most disputes, I imagine will be about the nomads. There are not yet enough of us in contact."

Ling Qi had to nod her head, that was true.

"Then your soldiers and our soldiers will need to collaborate as they do here. Many eyes to see that there are not lies spread in the ears of judges."

"I'm not sure that's possible along the whole border," Ling Qi said. There are simply too many commands."

"I agree," Dzintara said with a grimace. "Perhaps an agreement for sharing duties on outposts that follow designated routes?"

Ling Qi hid a grimace, glancing toward the rough edges of the construction here. That would be a harder sell too.

"I do think an investigative force attached to the judicial one is worth pursuing. I think that the Hierarchy could spare a Crow or two on retainer…?" Jaromila said leadingly.

"Possible. Perhaps I am overestimating how many claims there will be that 'our' tribes are making trouble," the old priestess said.

"So this force would mostly be for… distant claims, those that occur well away from here?" Ling Qi wondered. "I'm sure there are more hurdles than I am thinking of, but if we are constructing this from the ground up…"

"Outposts through which all legitimate traffic must travel would do more to remove the problem," Dzintara said flatly. "If you are outside approved routes then you have forfeited our protection."

Jaromila gave the younger woman a slightly sour look. "A degree of variation is necessary to survive, migrating in the Wall. Where the valleys and passes might change from decade to decade. "Also, shall the Axemother's temple open their coffers to chain checkpoints across a continent and man each one?"

It was a surprising show of friction, the White Sky didn't usually do that.

Dzintara grimaced at her, flashing sharpened iron fangs. "No, I was not proposing that. Only mutually manned outposts where the routes are likely to cross dangerously close to these northerners and their itchy blade grips. We cannot just grant those who come to us license to continue doing whatever they want."

"And that is not what I am proposing," Jaromila said coolly. "Apologies, Emissary Ling Qi, this is untoward of us. I do think pushing an investigative force will be good for everyone."

"And it is the opinion of the temples that we should minimize the need for it. Though we will not oppose its existence. Correct, priestess?"

"That is accurate, young lady. To answer Emissary Jaromila's question, the hierarchy can both spare a Crow, and open its coffers, to a point," the old woman sniffed.

Ling Qi mulled over what she had heard. The glimpse at the foreigners own internal friction was a useful insight… it seemed they weren't totally united on their approach to the Cloud Tribes either. Was Jaromila using this to raise that issue in her own Confederations regard? Gaining control of the tribes in the mountains would be more important, if this succeeded.

"I believe I can advance adding an investigative arm to the deliberations," Ling Qi said slowly. "At this early juncture, it may be more difficult to convince others about mutually manned checkpoints, rather than separate ones."

"Separate checkpoints will happen by default," Dzintara said bluntly. "But it does not solve the problems of communication and duplicity between them."

"It does not," Ling Qi sighed. Should she…

[ ] Promise to push for an investigative arm to be created attached to the judiciary here. It would be split much like the judges. (No Favor change, +20% on next roll for Polar Theocracy Favorability. Theocracy influence on Embassy Increased)
[ ] Promise to push for an investigative arm to be created attached to the judiciary here. It would be split much like the judges… and you can proactively offer Ministry involvement to match the Crows. (+1 to Ministry of Integrity Favorability, +20% to next roll for Polar Theocracy Favorability. Increased Theocracy and Ministry Influence on the Embassy.)
[ ] Support the idea of mixed manned checkpoints on designated routes through which White Sky aligned tribes will move when their routes demand passing close by. (+1 Polar Theocracy Favorability. -1 to White Plume Favorability. Shift in internal White Sky nomad dynamics)
[ ]Support both. (+1 to Polar Theocracy favorability, -1 White Plume favorability. +20% to Next Polar Theocracy or White Sky Roll. Increased Influence of Theocracy. lesser WS nomad Dynamics Shift.)
[ ] Support both with MoI Involvement. (+1 To Polar Theocracy Favorability, +1 To Ministry of Integrity Favorability. Increased Influence of Theocracy and Ministry, lesser WS nomad Dynamic Shift.)


Emerald Seas Nobility: 4 (+2 Ducal Support, +2 Personal accomplishments, +1 Historical Proofs, -1 Incomplete Hall)

White Plumes: 2 (+1 Satisfactory security, +1 Heron General's Patience)

Ministry of Integrity: 0 (+1 Satisfactory Security, +1 Imperial Support, +1 Judicial Concessions, -2 Ignored Interests, -1 Uncivilized Mingling)

White Sky Confederation: 5 (+2 Completed all three familiarity actions, +2 Leadership Support, +1 Historical Proofs)

Polar Theocracy: 1 (+1 Satisfactory Security, +2 Historical Proofs, -1 Incomplete Hall, -1 Unstable Outsiders)
 
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So, things getting more complicated now.

I'm feeling there are two main questions this revolves around:
  1. How we feel about increased MoI influence
  2. how well we think the mixed checkpoint system will work and how its establishment as a system plays into our long term plans
The question about the checkpoints and nomad dynamics are interesting imo. Long term my feeling is that our plans will involve trying to establish some kind of loose coopting of tribes on our side of the Wall to stop further conflict similar to the White Sky. If we can make them part of the trade system, protecting caravans etc. then this provides the carrot for them to not cause trouble for us while playing to their strengths a bit more while covering over the fact that we're limited in our ability to really settle the wall deeply.

While the current political concerns over the checkpoint system are about us and the WS working together, the reason Dzintara wants it is to establish some kind of loose control over how the nomads move through the Iron Road region. This may be useful for us in the future if it works.
 
[ ] Support both with MoI Involvement. (+1 To Polar Theocracy Favorability, +1 To Ministry of Integrity Favorability. Increased Influence of Theocracy and Ministry, lesser Dynamic Shift.)

making everyone like us more is good i think
 
How we feel about increased MoI influence
The issue here is, how many Ministry people do we think are going to be like Cao Chun, and how many are going to be like Jin Tae? The former has been... let's say cooperative enough. And he's made it clear that he won't use the influence we're allowing to sabotage our efforts. And even then, when things are shaping up to be a four-person panel where 1 of either side will have to agree with the other side, the capital judges are manageable.

But the Ministry agents on the other end of the judicial pipeline... that I'm less sure about. Where is the line between getting the MoI to have skin in the game, and giving them enough leeway to disrupt things?
 
(TLDR at the bottom)

[ ] Promise to push for an investigative arm to be created attached to the judiciary here. It would be split much like the judges. (No Favor change, +20% on next roll for Polar Theocracy Favorability. Theocracy influence on Embassy Increased)

Damn. This is complicated. I like the option to give it to the Theocracy, mainly because it'll act as a counterbalance to the MoI. While the MoI will hold some influence over the judged, the Theocracy will hold some influence over the cases picked since the WS are more vulnerable to accusations here.

[ ] Support the idea of mixed manned checkpoints on designated routes through which White Sky aligned tribes will move when their routes demand passing close by. (+1 Polar Theocracy Favorability. -1 to White Plume Favorability. Shift in internal White Sky dynamics)

[ ]Support both. (+1 to Polar Theocracy favorability, -1 White Plume favorability. +20% to Next Polar Theocracy or White Sky Roll. Increased Influence of Theocracy. lesser Dynamics Shift.)


I'm interested in the dynamic shifts for the WS regarding the nomads. A lot of ES wants boil down to stop the raiding, and finding out the WS' factions and their views on nomads in the Wall would certainly help with plans or convincing people. However, I am unsure if the drop in White Plumes favourability is worth it.

They seem interested in tightening up security, so anything that increases ES security would increase it. So we can probably recoup it in votes like the border discussions. But still.

[ ] Support both with MoI Involvement. (+1 To Polar Theocracy Favorability, +1 To Ministry of Integrity Favorability. Increased Influence of Theocracy and Ministry, lesser Dynamic Shift.)

[ ] Promise to push for an investigative arm to be created attached to the judiciary here. It would be split much like the judges… and you can proactively offer Ministry involvement to match the Crows. (+1 to Ministry of Integrity Favorability, +20% to next roll for Polar Theocracy Favorability. Increased Theocracy and Ministry Influence on the Embassy.)


I am wary to give the MoI any influence here. I concede that we probably can't increase MoI favourability without giving them some form of influence, but we have to strategic about it.

Allowing them one judge in what will most likely be a panel is not impactful, and fits them since they are traditionally rooted in Law.

Allowing them to be part of the group that decides which cases are to worthy of being judged on the first place? That's very impactful. It'll be giving them the power to determine which cases are fair and not which is...not ideal, given their priorities and our priorities, and how diametrically opposed they are. The same for allowing them in checkpoints with WS-aligned tribes.

Plus, while the MoI is partly rooted in investigation too, Jin Tae left a lot to be desired, and if they send junior members like him to this, it is likely that they'll show similarly poor showings because of stigma and biases. The Crows, on the other hand? They've only been shown to be objective, and their connection to the Crowfather means that not even the Polar Theocracy can control or influence them.

So, I think the best option is

[ ] Promise to push for an investigative arm to be created attached to the judiciary here. It would be split much like the judges. (No Favor change, +20% on next roll for Polar Theocracy Favorability. Theocracy influence on Embassy Increased)

With this being the second best, if we are willing to vote for harder security/more hardline borders in the future.

[ ]Support both. (+1 to Polar Theocracy favorability, -1 White Plume favorability. +20% to Next Polar Theocracy or White Sky Roll. Increased Influence of Theocracy. lesser Dynamics Shift.)

TLDR:

I think option 1 is the best option. Option 4 too, if we are open to tighter border security votes since that's the Whire Plume focus.

Giving the MoI one judge on a panel of judges to go over incidents is okay. The influence is small.

Giving them influence over the team that decides which cases are worthy of judgement is big and bad, especially with their priorities so opposed to ours.

As people brought up with the judges, they will probably send junior agents. Jin Tae has shown to be biased. The Crows have not.

Increased dynamics within the WS regarding nomads may help the WS find some common ground with the ES.
 
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Very interesting. We don't actually know much about the Polar Theocracy, or what the internal dynamics are with regards to Jaromila, White Sky and the rest of the Polar Nations. Seems like Crowfather is big in White Skies and Axemother is big in Pines. As to be expected, really.

if we only look at numbers the last option is best. Therefore we need to ask "How much value do we place on the Dynamic Shifting in the Polar Nations with-regards-to Nomads?" and "how much influence from the Theocracy and MoI are we okay with? Where are we not okay for their influence to spread?"

Hrmmm
~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is going to be a difficult vote because by numbers the last option is best. Therefore the other votes have to make positive-cases for their arguments, based on speculation and inference.

The "dynamic shift" isn't clear to me. Don't really know. I think it's from seeing nomads as monsters to seeing them as very different humans? That'd be good.

I'm also interested in what matched Crow and MoI influence would look like. Crow agents are above Green right? Because their sacrifice of their identity is what puts them on the path out of being human right? So at minimum they're green+ aspiring for higher? To match that, would we be getting Green MoI agents looking to scrounge for insights on the frontier? Higher than Green looking to take a relatively lower-risk posting? Something else?

I would be interested in how the mixed Crow and MoI investigative arms would be ran. I think I'd need more knowledge about how it'd be set up to be certain of anything.
 
Mmm, yeah. Fundamentally our relationship with MoI is complicated.

Ideologically, us, or at least the Cai, are broadly on board with a pro-centralisation agenda and respect their dedication to the law and against corruption that is endemic throughout much of the empire.

At the same time, we have problems with their culture rooted in the Peaks. Fundamentally we favour more cultural diversity, and in terms of our politics are pushing to develop a strong sense of modern Emerald Sea culture to bring the province together. In terms of our southern strategy, the problem is that investigations require a certain degree of diplomacy, tact, and ability to deal with foreign cultures. We're going to want to be selecting good agents from the ministry of law who have a degree of openness to them. Not imperialist xenophobes who might cause diplomatic incidents and make everything worse.

This ofc causes problems with some of the parties most concerned with security here - the MoI and White Plumes - because they are imperialist xenophobes.
 
Yeah the dynamic shit seems kinda like we'd be more supporting the central authority and thereby bypassing the local one. In theory a good thing, in practice will likely increase friction and make this project even more suseptible to the internal politics of Big Gov rather than a more realistic but ideal driven endeavour.
 
Broadly our goal with the imperialist xenophobe factions is that they don't cause trouble.

This requires that they be mollified enough that they don't actively oppose us (the numbers question), while at the same time we avoid putting them into positions where they are likely to cause trouble in the future (a complicated political question).
 
The "dynamic shift" isn't clear to me. Don't really know. I think it's from seeing nomads as monsters to seeing them as very different humans? That'd be good.
My read is that it creates problems for the WS relations with them rn. Currently they're taking a very loose hand with their affiliated tribes, but this would involve tightening that hand a bit in a way that interferes with traditional cloud tribe practices, and which the tribes may have legitimate issues with. This will create tension, along with an implicit lack of trust in them.
 
It turns the Velvet Touch of the Polar nation into a more Iron Grip. There appears to be a difference in opinion in how to deal with the Cloud Nomads.

It is in a similar vein with the Empire but less genocidal. The White Sky seems to be trying to incorporate the strength of the Nomads while the Theocracy wishes to see them converted utterly.

I mean a lot of the Imperial border clans seem to want integration but ironically in the vein of Genghis Khan.

In a way we provide different options for survival to the current decline of the Cloud Nomads. But this could end up being a point of conflict in the future as the treatment of the foreigners to the people who would one day become theirs could appal the Polar Nation while the Empire could see the integration of the Nomads as a continuation of the culture that for so long raided and rained devestation on the province.
 
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Edit after Turn 19: this is obsolete since the Turn 19 main plot changed things.

Since people were talking about fief stuff just before the update: Reminder that I already wrote up all meaningful Turn 19 fief plans (also in my sig, but I know people ignore those). I put out a call for funny plan names but unless I get more I'll just go with mine.

I suppose I could rewrite them as a flowchart (but see modification rules below):

  • If "Fishing Boats" takes 1 month:
    • If we want to rush (Hamlet project at turn 24): take {Admin Center + Subsistence Pastures}, then almost certainly Fishing Boats on turn 20, then Population Drive on turns 21, 22, and 23. Note that this branch is unlikely to take any currently-hidden Agriculture unlocks.
    • If we choose to crawl (Hamlet project at turn 25):
      • If we want to focus on Agriculture income: take {Subsistence Pastures + likely Fishing Boats}, then {Admin Center + some Agriculture unlock} on turn 20, then some Agriculture unlock on turn 21, then 3 Population Drives on turns 22, 23, and 24.
      • If we want to focus on Material income: take {Subsistence Quarry + Fishing Boats}, then {Admin Center + Tiny Quarry} on turn 20, then I guess Subsistence Pastures (we can't staff it, but we need the pop boost) on turn 21, then 3 Population Drives on turns 22, 23, and 24.
      • If we want to focus on defense: take {Administration Center + Subsistence Quarry}, then almost certainly Fishing Boats on turn 20, then Subsistence Pastures (again, we can't staff it) on turn 21, then 2 Population Drives on turns 22 and 23, then {Simple Palisade + Population Drive} on turn 24. I suppose theoretically we could do pastures instead of quarry and add some other upgrade, but that makes the plan ambiguous and means future relitigation.
  • If "Fishing Boats" takes 2 months:
    • If we really want to rush (Hamlet project at turn 24) even with suboptimal long-term choices: take {Admin Center + Subsistence Pastures}, then Population Drive on turns 20, 21, 22, and 23. Note that this branch is unlikely to take any currently-hidden Agriculture unlocks
    • More likely, we'll settle for crawling (Hamlet project at turn 25):
      • If we want to focus on Agriculture income: take {Subsistence Pastures + likely Fishing Boats}, then Admin Center on turn 20, then some Agriculture unlock on turn 21, then 3 turns of Population Drive on turns 22, 23, and 24.
      • If we want to focus on Material income: take {Subsistence Quarry + almost certainly Fishing Boats}, then Admin Center on turn 20, then Subsistence Pastures on turn 21 (again, can't staff it), then Population Drives on turns 22, 23, and 24.
      • If we want to focus on defense: take {Admin Center + Subsistence Pastures}, then almost certainly Fishing Boats on turn 20, then nothing on turn 21 (since both projects are still locked in from previous months), then 2 turns of Population Drives on turns 22 and 23, then {Simple Palisade + Population Drive} on turn 24.
  • Once the turn 19 fief options are available, there will be at most 4 possible plans, fully specified. All subsequent turns up to Hamlet will also be specified other than choosing between Agriculture upgrades in some branches.
  • Remember that we need 5 population increases still. That's likely to be {Subsistence Pastures, Fishing Boats, 3x Population Drive}.
    • If we take an Agriculture-heavy branch, it's likely that 1 of the Population Drives will be replaced by something else; I haven't repeated that in every branch.
    • To avoid idle villagers (since last turn we opted for safety over efficiency), we always take either Subsistence Pastures or Subsistence Quarry immediately. The former gives a needed pop boost, so if we take both then we won't be able to staff everything. In quarry plans below I've written pastures before Population Drives since theoretically it might directly unlock a further pop boost, but since I don't actually expect that (I expect an intermediary to be required first), it might "feel better" to move it to the end. (this will also give us more information sooner about how the price of Population Drive increases)
  • If we assume other site-related fief projects (which will require we take and succeed at certain turn-level actions) will be like Veins of the Earth and take multiple months, there's no opportunity to do them before hamlet (except maybe if we pessimize the extra food plan). But I imagine we'll probably do those actions within 5 turns regardless. Though I suppose I am also assuming no drastic system change too ... who knows how moving away from "turn = month" will affect the fief.
  • In all branches, if there is an Agriculture unlock whose bonus (not counting permanent manpower) is strictly better (not equal to) Fishing Boats and there's room for it in the schedule (either there's a "some Agriculture unlock" in the schedule, or it does provide permanent manpower), it should move ahead and push FB back. In branches where FB is marked for turn 19 or where don't take Subsistence Pastures yet, that means it must be a granary unlock (relevant for some of my previous posts).
  • I'm still making some assumptions but I've thought a lot and mentioned all the reasonably imaginable ones at this point.
 
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It's going to be interesting- the incentives here are for the white skies and emerald seas to claim all of the mountains right up to the edge of eachother's claims, because the cloud tribes occupying them aren't at the table. And the emerald seas aren't going to want to leave any 'refuges' where they can retreat and neither empire has power.

Edit- we might push to, before the empires claim borders, get down on paper the stuff that can be considered hostile territory. If any incursions from those areas can be presumed hostile and fired upon without treaty implications, it'll give both sides a political buffer. Plus it gets down on paper some territory for the cloud nomads, keeping a peace without integration option open for them.

And it'll set up an incentive for both sides to be modest with border claims- so as not to have to take responsibility for the actions of the people in the area they don't actually control.
 
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[X] Promise to push for an investigative arm to be created attached to the judiciary here. It would be split much like the judges… and you can proactively offer Ministry involvement to match the Crows. (+1 to Ministry of Integrity Favorability, +20% to next roll for Polar Theocracy Favorability. Increased Theocracy and Ministry Influence on the Embassy.)

I am supporting this option since not only does it provide bonus to both Theocracy and MoI, it doesn't have drawback of tightening grip heavily of White Sky aligned Nomads that are option 3 or 4 also which both decrease White Plumps nor does it give alot of MoI influence that option 5 gives and soften tightening.

Downside of this option hover is giving more influence to MoI and allowing the Theocracy to have to influence.
 
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btw. regarding option 5: the numbers go up real nice there, but if we take a moment to think about it, we can see why that is the case.

LIng Qi said this chapter
"…Besides, she couldn't say she fully trusted establishing more potential points for failure and conflict before this one was even proven."
regarding the Luo proposal, these checkpoints introduce the same points of failure.

Jaromila was pretty against those checkpoints herself in their discussion and the mentioned internal shift for all those checkpoint options would be *against* her

At the same time we are both trying to limit the influence of the MoI and their temple, because it is ultimately a project between the Emerald Seas and the White Skies.

And so we can now see why both the MoI and the Temple like option 5 so much: Both we and Jaromila make huge concessions there: we accept their checkpoints, the potential points of failure and a lot of MoI and Crow agents in both the Investigation teams and the border cehckpoints.
The things going down are our own interests, but thats not a number in the relationship table, so it is kinda 'invisible' there
 
I think two things are clear. Its one thing to increase MOI favorability and throw em a bone, it's another to give them more power and influence especially when we may regret it later. I don't think we should do that.
Point two: the checkpoints along the border need to be able to communicate with each other clearly, without tension or language barriers getting in the way. I think completely, totally separate posts is a bad idea...I mean I don't want to lower the White Plume stat either but we gotta be practical.
Hey, is there no option that doesn't increase Polar Theocracy influence?
 
It is worth remembering that there is a very important "number" that is not included in the votes - and that's our number, since we're supposed to work out how well they serve our goals.

While our goals do, of course, require this summit being successful, just getting an agreement isn't the goal. We also want to set ourselves up well. This involves giving Renxiang a strong positive reputation among first the ES nobility, and then the other provinces, but also avoiding creating problems for ourselves down the line.

This is where concerns about giving the MoI too much come in. The intrusion of the MoI into noble affairs is, to a degree, resented by them, and even if we can mollify our nobility the other dukes - especially our current "allies" - will likely not appreciate creating any more precedent and legitimacy for the idea that the MoI can intrude into their affairs. Moreover, making us look like a throne lapdog will not exactly give Renxiang a good rep to them.

Similarly, the imperialist xenophobia and biases of the MoI and White Plumes can easily become a source of diplomatic problems down the line if they are put into positions that require diplomatic tact and respect to foreign cultures. Investigating international disputes here is not really just a simple question of law - it's a sensitive issue of politics and diplomacy. To a degree the MoI already have to deal with this in provincial affairs, but this is something they see as a "problem" that they want to "fix", which isn't necessarily the kind of attitude that is helpful for us here.

Moreover, the more power and influence we grant to others, the more we risk reducing our own position and power base that we're trying to build here. It's quite possible to negotiate a set of agreements that make "everyone" more happy, but which also doesn't really help build our position up as well. We do kind of want to control things in the South here - which is also why the Luo are likely to be a problem later as LQ noted. This is also something where creating more the precedent for more interface points is potentially problematic, since if we create the precedent that that's fine - especially leaning on MoI support for legitimacy - then it becomes harder to argue that similar checkpoints and trade routes couldn't be set up elsewhere. And while the MoI will want to minimise interactions rn, as they become used to it they could also see this as a good opportunity to expand their influence if we give them the opportunity.
 
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