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Sure, maybe it does. But it could also be just fine. And even if it does, then so be it! We're finishing something the turn after this one; maybe it's forced to be riders, or maybe we can choose, but something is getting done.
Just as a note, I don't think this is true. There are, as I understand it, three steps to having our very own starter Pokemon to make Wolf jealous: finding one and trapping it (the action currently under debate), then putting together an Ulgu binding to tie it to our soul and keep it under control, then developing a spell to deploy it in a controlled fashion. So I think it's 3 AP minimum, possibly more (but probably developing the spell won't be nearly as complicated as the Rite of Way was, because the apparition is doing most of the work and we just need to be able to send it out and get it back, so I doubt the spell would be more than 1 or 2 AP).
 
I'm frankly kind of baffled that apparitions are being contested in the manner they are.

If it was being compared to swording, right on. AV? Fine! Love some snake juice. Rite of way? Arcane marks? These are cool too, let's go.

But it's fighting against mapping Tilea and Estalia. It's useful sure, but...I really don't think it outweighs finally starting another step of a research chain going after so long.

'What if it forces us to use another AP next turn on it?'

Sure, maybe it does. But it could also be just fine. And even if it does, then so be it! We're finishing something the turn after this one; maybe it's forced to be riders, or maybe we can choose, but something is getting done.


Separately; if we do the iron orcs the same turn, we can totally justify burning an extra overwork to fit everything we want in, and take a single turn of low-risk backseat management afterward. Heck, the penalty is only for Mathy, right? The other people in the project will be rolling perfectly fine.

The tool is there for a reason; you just have to manage the consequences correctly.
Apparitions are cool, few people are contesting this. But it will take an unknown amount of AP to actually see results from them (assuming we don't get unlucky and it's not doable) and people are already talking about next turn being a dedicated Father thing.

Furthermore, I think a lot of people also think that finishing existing projects before adding new ones is better (codifying being seen as the finisher of the entire RoW process rather than a new thing entirely).

Do the Morbs need a roll? I thought that was entierly automated. Or did you mean in an AP economy sense, and not a 'Mathy has -10' sense?

Because burning the overwork is what I'm saying we should do to fit everything in.
Boney said we'd have to construct the device and then babysit it, and ideally we want the Room of Calamity for that because you'd be dealing with a very volatile substance which can create a lot of Winds very quickly if you're not careful.
 
Furthermore, I think a lot of people also think that finishing existing projects before adding new ones is better (codifying being seen as the finisher of the entire RoW process rather than a new thing entirely)

Which seems foolish to me- think of all the AP spent on our tower of doom, and we had tons of outside help plus everyone knew the spell already.

I dislike finishing things for the sake of finishing them. Being free to walk away and just do something new is a thing I value.
 
Boney said we'd have to construct the device and then babysit it, and ideally we want the Room of Calamity for that because you'd be dealing with a very volatile substance which can create a lot of Winds very quickly if you're not careful.

Didn't we already make that device?

You sketch out a device with which you could hold eight power stones equidistant from a central point, and on that point careful measures of Vitae could be dropped and detonated and allowed to congeal on the power stones before the next measure is introduced. Then you work on a device to automatically deliver and detonate those measures, because that seems like a long and tedious process to do manually, and then measure the viscosity of the Vitae so you're able to sketch out a set of tubes dripping Vitae into a Cup of Verena that should allow the entire process to be automated. Over a number of days, eight power stones plus eight gallons of Vitae should result in something the Colleges thought impossible: the creation of entirely new Orbs of Sorcery.


Alright, well, we sketched it, but the device only needs to be put together. Hardly something that we couldn't feasibly order from a local runesmith and associated craftsdwarves.

I'd still give it good odds that Mathy wouldn't be affected by the -10 in this case; it'd be the magic itself going weird. if it does then I admit she'd have a -10 to her reaction to it, but I'd say that that one step removed is enough to assuage concerns.
 
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So, since it looks like we're gonna be rolling tributaries out in stirland, which presumably includes "Eastern stirland", I have to ask, will tributaries work in sylvania? There was talk about bringing in the bog cults kasimir has been working with for the water spirit rituals, but without the main waystones, it doesn't seem like tributaries would even function, so I dunno if they're gonna be interested in helping out everywhere *but* where they actually live.
It'll work wherever Waystones still stand. I'm not sure if they've been entirely or just mostly wiped out in Sylvania, but even if they're not effective there, Western Stirland (which is all the province was for a long time) should still be a perfectly viable target, and in greater need of the tributaries than any other province in the Empire barring Sylvania itself, since it borders Sylvania.
 
Just as a note, I don't think this is true. There are, as I understand it, three steps to having our very own starter Pokemon to make Wolf jealous: finding one and trapping it (the action currently under debate), then putting together an Ulgu binding to tie it to our soul and keep it under control, then developing a spell to deploy it in a controlled fashion. So I think it's 3 AP minimum, possibly more (but probably developing the spell won't be nearly as complicated as the Rite of Way was, because the apparition is doing most of the work and we just need to be able to send it out and get it back, so I doubt the spell would be more than 1 or 2 AP).
Looking back at when we developed RoW, starting on turn 31, there were three spell components: First was the "minified" Skywalk, then the targeting identifier, and then finally the delivery mechanism... only we rolled rather poorly on the third component, and elected to spend an overwork action to fix that component in time for the Expedition.

Bring that back to Apparition Binding, as another Batlle Magic spell that also has three specified components to creating it? I highly, highly doubt it even can be completed in a single AP, barring any nat 100 shenanigans.
 
Which seems foolish to me- think of all the AP spent on our tower of doom, and we had tons of outside help plus everyone knew the spell already.

I dislike finishing things for the sake of finishing them. Being free to walk away and just do something new is a thing I value.
I did say "being seen". A codified RoW would also be of immediate use not just to the Empire but also in regards to Laurelorn trade.

Alright, well, we sketched it, but the device only needs to be put together. hardly something that we couldn't feasibly hand off to a local craftedwarf.

I'd still give it good odds that Mathy wouldn't be affected by the -10 in this case; it'd be the magic itself going weird. if it does then I admit she'd have a -10 to her reaction to it, but I'd say that that's one step removed is enough to assuage concerns.
See, I think you're right when it comes to management actions, but when it comes to dealing with eight gallons of highly reactive Warp-juice which can explode into high amounts of Winds, I believe we should take every precaution we can.

Furthermore, the thread in general has been historically averse to taking risks when we are not pressed for time. You might find it fine, but I can very easily see people going 'well we can just wait until next turn when we don't have a penalty to deal with'.
 
Looking back at when we developed RoW, starting on turn 31, there were three spell components: First was the "minified" Skywalk, then the targeting identifier, and then finally the delivery mechanism... only we rolled rather poorly on the third component, and elected to spend an overwork action to fix that component in time for the Expedition.

Bring that back to Apparition Binding, as another Batlle Magic spell that also has three specified components to creating it? I highly, highly doubt it even can be completed in a single AP, barring any nat 100 shenanigans.
I take your point, but I think that the fact that a lot of the hard part is in successfully binding the apparition reduces the amount of work the spell has to do: we know, for instance, that while Gehenna's Golden Hounds is classified Battle Magic it's not really Battle Magic in the same way as other spells. It's not slinging around enough Chamon that Chamon remembers that it's supposed to be from the Realm of Chaos and starts trying to redecorate reality, it's just that you're letting extremely dangerous monsters out on a long leash. The danger is in the leash snapping, not in the amount of magic in play. So I do think 1 or 2 AP are totally reasonable possibilities for Apparition-based spells, because all the magic has to do is exercise continuous control over a thing that already exists, rather than create a new effect from nowhere.
I'd still give it good odds that Mathy wouldn't be affected by the -10 in this case; it'd be the magic itself going weird. if it does then I admit she'd have a -10 to her reaction to it, but I'd say that that one step removed is enough to assuage concerns.
The fact that, per Boney, Mathilde would want to do the Orb creation in the Room of Calamity is enough to make me extremely leery about doing it with a -10 to everything. That doesn't feel like "just push the button and let an automated process work" to me, that feels like "we're monitoring a delicate reaction where if anything goes wrong everything explodes"; Mathilde thinks there's enough risk to do this in her Oh Shit Oh Fuck Oh God No lab, rather than her Study The Magic Better lab. Each Orb of Sorcery is basically a tactical nuclear warhead in terms of magical potential, and we're making eight of them. I don't want to fuck with that while 10% worse at life.
 
The fact that, per Boney, Mathilde would want to do the Orb creation in the Room of Calamity is enough to make me extremely leery about doing it with a -10 to everything. That doesn't feel like "just push the button and let an automated process work" to me, that feels like "we're monitoring a delicate reaction where if anything goes wrong everything explodes"; Mathilde thinks there's enough risk to do this in her Oh Shit Oh Fuck Oh God No lab, rather than her Study The Magic Better lab. Each Orb of Sorcery is basically a tactical nuclear warhead in terms of magical potential, and we're making eight of them. I don't want to fuck with that while 10% worse at life.
Or in other words, we don't want to Resonance Cascade K8P.
 
I'm now imagining how we're going to transport the Morbs to Altdorf. I suspect every Tzeentchian jahoo is gonna have visions of infinite power.

The "dwarven guild of explosive transport" making a giant convoy scaled to protecting 100 tons of dynamite and then Mathilde casually unpacking them in Altdorf slotting them into a tacky chandelier/sculpture.

(frankly I'm super paranoid about Morb security, I'm convinced a demon could make a belt out of em and stay in the material realm forever or similarly wacky things)
 
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If we gave an orb of sorcery to Kragg or Torek would they be able to forge something cool with it?
I imagine not, or they'd already be doing cool things with regular power stones. Runesmiths charge their Runes with the winds proper, not their crystallized form - they have no actual magical ability, so they couldn't get the winds out of power stones or Orbs on their own even if they wanted to.

Being able to use AV to be able to recharge Runes very quickly is already pretty impressive and of military importance to them, honestly.

(frankly I'm super paranoid about Morb security, I'm convinced a demon could make a belt out of em and stay in the material realm forever or similarly wacky things)
I'm picturing an evil Belt of Deltora.
 
Or in other words, we don't want to Resonance Cascade K8P.
"They're waiting for you Mathilde, In the Morb chamber."


On an unrelated note how exactly do we plan on presenting the Morbs? I would sort of want representatives from each college there. So Mathilde can be as dramatic and Mathildey as possible.

I suppose we could just give them to Dragomas but that feels a bit boring.
 
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I'm frankly kind of baffled that apparitions are being contested in the manner they are.

If it was being compared to swording, right on. AV? Fine! Love some snake juice. Rite of way? Arcane marks? These are cool too, let's go.

But it's fighting against mapping Tilea and Estalia. It's useful sure, but...I really don't think it outweighs finally starting another step of a research chain going after so long.

'What if it forces us to use another AP next turn on it?'

Sure, maybe it does. But it could also be just fine. And even if it does, then so be it! We're finishing something the turn after this one; maybe it's forced to be riders, or maybe we can choose, but something is getting done.


Separately; if we do the iron orcs the same turn, we can totally justify burning an extra overwork to fit everything we want in, and take a single turn of low-risk backseat management afterward. Heck, the penalty is only for Mathy, right? The other people in the project will be rolling perfectly fine.

The tool is there for a reason; you just have to manage the consequences correctly.
It's a combination of factors, some which you've already mentioned:
1 - How long we can hold apparitions is unknown, and dependant on diceroll, so it may force a follow-up action at a time when we might want to focus on morbs/finish swording/waystone action/arcane marks/<insert action here>. So in that sense, it is still competing with those cool things.
2 - Some people want to use the Gambler on Apparitions to mitigate risks, which we can't do on a turn when we're using it on codifying RoW.
3 - Some people want to finish other self improvement actions, like Branarhune and Arcane Marks, before starting Apparitions. Branarhune because it'll get more immediate results and is safer, and Arcane Marks because arcane marks are an expression of Mathilde's soul not being under her control and apparitions involve binding things to that soul.
4 - Some people don't want Riders in Red, preferring other options like Handmaidens.
5 - Some people don't want apparitions at all, as it wasn't what we were hoping for when we sold the skaventech and they see it as a sunk cost.

Doing overwork without an urgent need is a non-starter. -10 across all rolls is a lot worse of a malus than what the Gambler gives us as a bonus, and we don't always get to control if a combat situation pops up, like with the Skull River incident.
 
If we gave an orb of sorcery to Kragg or Torek would they be able to forge something cool with it?
Able, yes. Willing? Another matter. The only reason they'd consider it at all is that Mathilde is the one asking. But there'd be a hell of a lot of research before anything is done, and a lot of convincing why this is necessary for the good of the Karaz Ankor.
I imagine not, or they'd already be doing cool things with regular power stones. Runesmiths charge their Runes with the winds proper, not their crystallized form - they have no actual magical ability, so they couldn't get the winds out of power stones or Orbs on their own even if they wanted to.

Being able to use AV to be able to recharge Runes very quickly is already pretty impressive and of military importance to them, honestly.
I'd agree with your argument if powerstones had been around for a long time. But on runesmith scales, they haven't. Humans, the only plausible source, have been able to make powerstones for what, a hundred years? One fifty at the most?
Sure for humans that is a decent chunk of time. For runesmiths that's just about nothing. They're still only barely working on guns, and the wiki tells me the dwarfs invented those four centuries before Sigmar.

Golden Age Dwarfs worked with mages. Bok tells us as much. They knew and probably used powerstones. Modern runesmiths, modern dwarfs, have quire thoroughly repressed their cooperation with the elves, and crafting knowledge related to powerstones would've been among the easiest to lose without any way of sourcing them*.

In fact, our Hellfire Mountain Tower is probably the first time in multiple millenia that a magic construct was created that used both runes and enchanting (and powerstones). It's a powerful precedent, especially since Kragg was involved and it has literal divine blessing. So we might see some ultra-radicals poking at the usage of powerstones in a few centuries.**

But thinking about it, runesmiths should approve of powerstones, relative to normal wizard nonsense. In the dwarf->blacksmith, wizard-> molten metal throwers, this would be something like forming the metal into form where it stays in a stable molten shape. Still not something you should use to clobber others, but a useful crafting material. I could actually see some runesmith interest there. Though we would probably have to talk to Thorek for an actual sanctioning, but it could be a very useful trade good for the Colleges.

*The crown of eternity isn't really a good precendent, but it shows that carving runes on soldified magic and probably powerstones (if warpstone is the powerstone for dhar) works and has strong effects.
** I also haven't mentioned that most Runesmiths won't even know that powerstones exist, because again why would they? Humans haven't been able to make the for long, and they're not going to talk to the elves about it.
 
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I'm just using your post as a jumping off point for my idea, it's not actually related to what you wrote.
[Note, in this scenario, the Enoir no longer make use of trees that require precious metals to act as waystones]. I dunno if this is viable, I'm just throwing out the idea incase something workable can be made from it:

Nordland don't 'deserve' it, sure. It is rewarding Nordland's threat of further demolishing of the Eonir's defences, yes. But putting aside 'right' and ethics and the like, in terms of preventing further encroaching on the forest, something somewhat sustainable:

I wonder how much effort it would take to create a controlled area where trees grow really quickly, enough for sustainable harvesting that matches or mildly exceeds[1] the amount of wood the current population of Nordland harvests from their forest.
If that area is in the hands of the Eonir, and they are paid by Nordland for the rights to harvest from it, then they have a blatant threat: If Nordland does not self-police against 'rogue' harvesters, we will turn off the enchantment that is growing these trees quickly. If you do not pay rent[1], we will turn off the enchantment.

[If Nordland agrees to police against 'rogue harvesters' then people cutting down the Eonir's defences are unaffiliated with Nordlands's power structures and the Eonir can attack them without Nordland making a fuss]

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If the Eonir are brought to the point of turning off the enchantment, and things go back to the old ways, then trade groups in the empire will loose access to a market, so that should put pressure on Nordland to keep to the 'fast wood growth zone'

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[1] 'paying rent' is to make the Eonir feel better about putting effort towards this enchantment... that is being used to basically bribe Nordland to not demolish their defences
Eeehh no, considering thats literally
how the whole issue started, (without needing to have an Archmage spend their time growing the humans lumber.) Seriously, Larelorn and Nordland agreed that this specific patch of forrest could be sold of for forestry. Then Nordland started slowly stepping out, pinky promised to not expand any further, and ignoring that until they were within spitting distance of the city. No way Laurelorn thinks "this time they will totally only cut the trees they're supposed to" and no way Nordland goes "yeah we'll stick with just this patch of forest."

[X] Plan Lore and Metal, Windfall Edition. (ft. Red Riders)

[X] Plan Codifying and Swords
 
I dislike finishing things for the sake of finishing them. Being free to walk away and just do something new is a thing I value.

Its not, like, finishing something just for the joy of completion or whatever*- finishing a project is how we get the actual benefits from it.

Finishing Branarhune is how we get the traits and narrative bonuses of having a complete Branarhune. Finishing RoW rather than leaving it half done is why we can use it at all. Finishing the Magic Mushrooms project made them of actual use to the colleges rather than just remaining a curiosity sitting in our lab.

If we just capture an Apparition and then don't get to the point where we actual bind it and turn it into a spell, there was no point to capturing that Apparition to begin with.

AV is a bit different, being more of an entire tech tree rather than a single project, but finishing that is how we get to do the Galaxy Flex and empower the Colleges by making a very limited resource no so limited.

(Also, finishing an item is how you clear up space for a new item.)

*I will admit that for some people it totally is about the joy of completion, as that's the only motive I've ever heard behind completing the spellbook, but that doesn't seem terribly relevant in this case.
 
Its not, like, finishing something just for the joy of completion or whatever*- finishing a project is how we get the actual benefits from it.

Finishing Branarhune is how we get the traits and narrative bonuses of having a complete Branarhune. Finishing RoW rather than leaving it half done is why we can use it at all. Finishing the Magic Mushrooms project made them of actual use to the colleges rather than just remaining a curiosity sitting in our lab.

As counterpoints, the two remaining bits of Branarhune are stretch goals that the thread chose to pursue before declaring it 'done'. They're 110% and 120% completion.

Similarly, the Mushroom paper was written a turn or two before we submitted it. The dice were mediocre, and it was decided to take more scribing actions and pick up more Book to get a better result, but we totally could have submitted the first finished draft and have been only 1 or 2 CF shorter than what we ended up with.

The AV book is functionally ready to write right now. The one remaining application (liminal realms) had an exploratory action that showed it to be possible, but not a particularly good use of the limited resource (the conversion rate is appalling, and from Mathy's non-dice-seeing perspective, it comes with demons). We can totally write the book and leave that as a footnote, and it will be complete. But no, another action is due to be spent in a turn or two pursuing a path that we'll never really make use of, just so we can say we ticked all the boxes. And that vote will be a landslide.
 
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As counterpoints, the two remaining bits of Branarhune are stretch goals that the thread chose to pursue before declaring it 'done'. They're 110% and 120% completion.
This is not true. Branarhune has four components:
[Branarhune aspect developed: momentum dump. Remaining aspects: guard bypass, quick-draw, hand switching.]
We've done three of these, and one of them, the guard bypass, did so badly we've been given the opportunity to redo it. But even ignoring that, we're still only at 3/4ths completion:
Greatsword, Master (3*/4)
 
Finishing the Magic Mushrooms project made them of actual use to the colleges rather than just remaining a curiosity sitting in our lab.

Ah. You are using 'finishing' to mean we call it done, cash in, and move on. I was using 'finishing' to mean we've completed all available actions on the subject.

Your use I'm total cool with. But, like, we don't need to do any more mapping to finish the Waystone project. So we don't need to 'finish' it to finish it.
 
Eeehh no, considering thats literally
how the whole issue started, (without needing to have an Archmage spend their time growing the humans lumber.) Seriously, Larelorn and Nordland agreed that this specific patch of forrest could be sold of for forestry. Then Nordland started slowly stepping out, pinky promised to not expand any further, and ignoring that until they were within spitting distance of the city. No way Laurelorn thinks "this time they will totally only cut the trees they're supposed to" and no way Nordland goes "yeah we'll stick with just this patch of forest."
I was lazily envisioning an already cut down area, a notable distance from the treeline like. literally miles?, that is re-seeded with trees that magically grow at ludicrous rates, many years worth of growth per actual year.

Enough so that the zone produces enough lumber that it matches current rate of consumption by Nordland, thereby protecting the lumber industry of Nordland. [precious metals industry is fucked tho.]

Then Nordland, pressured by the parts of the Empire that are benefiting from the Eonir markets, agrees that anyone taking trees outside of these separate zones is the equivalent of a poacher, basically, and is obviously rebelling against the legal treaties of Nordland to not cut down that forest, and is ok for the Enoir to kill if seen cutting down their defences.

----
I'm basically trying to think of an incentive for Nordland to agree and keep to a new status-quo that doesn't involve them cutting down Eonir defences, and 'your forestry industry now depends on Eonir magics regrowing new harvestable forests for you, and the rest of the Empire now have a financial incentive to back the Enoir's position over yours if you start up the bullshit again' was what first came to mind.

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I am of course assuming that the magic needed to do this isn't outrageously difficult. Enchanted items owned and operated by Eonir would result in a very obvious stick for the Enoir to wield as a threat to Nordland for them to not try any bullshit - in that the 'regrowing forests' would no longer re-grow in the event of conflict so Nordland now have to keep the Enoir happy in the long-term, and the right to kill 'tree poachers' cutting down their defences would put an end to Nordland trying to be sneaky about it, since there's a whole area of quickly growing trees that don't end in probable death for loggers.
 
I think the trick might just be to reduce the penalty for cutting trees, but apply it reliablely. One finger for every felled tree, perhaps.
 
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