pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
I mean... would you invade the realm that is probably inhabited by an actual, living God? Their seat of power even?
In words of Yamamoto, "I am here, there is no better security than this."
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
In words of Yamamoto, "I am here, there is no better security than this."
- Location
- Brazil
See there are three problems with that:
We know the Colleges don't have a protocol for dealing with this kind of situation, there are no best practices because that is something they would exploit, so basicaly the first argument is to try and add a weakness to the system.
The second has the problem that noting stops a daemon from getting the same result from just lying straigh up, and there is as much chance that just talking is actualy the goal, so that is a wash.
And finaly we already got the anti-chaos training, so we already have all the advice they had. if they have it we got it already.
Basicaly it boils down that there is no reason to tell about demon encouters in general and a strong indication that the best thing trusted people should do is decide on a case be case basis, because a standart procedure would be a weakness, so why is it good to tell in this in particular ?
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Except the Ancestors don't seem to be Gods in the sense of 'throwing around amounts of power'.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
No?
Grombrindal and Gazul both are presences of notable power, overseeing the world. It shows up in the update where Mathilde Mathildes the Waaagh Birdmuncha.
They may not call down holy comets of light, but they have metaphorical power, they are gods, and thinking they cannot slam down whatever tries to assail their domain seems weird. Gazul is the lord of Underearth, where Dwarven dead go. Whatever else he is doing, protecting Underearth surely takes primacy.
Horologer
Incertae sedis
- Location
- a risen sea
[X] [BELEGAR] Daemon and weakening
[X] [COLLEGE] Everchosen and Greater Daemon
Belegar's earned honesty, if nothing else.
I also think Mathilde has a duty to warn the colleges about the incoming Everchosen. If we're going to vote for that, I think we should also vote to inform them what the source was. I'm fairly confident that at least Algard will be reasonable about this, especially since he's warned Mathilde before that Tzeentch might be interested in her.
Mathilde's candidacy is borderline irrelevant and probably bait. No reason to share it and plenty of good reasons not to.
[X] [COLLEGE] Everchosen and Greater Daemon
Belegar's earned honesty, if nothing else.
I also think Mathilde has a duty to warn the colleges about the incoming Everchosen. If we're going to vote for that, I think we should also vote to inform them what the source was. I'm fairly confident that at least Algard will be reasonable about this, especially since he's warned Mathilde before that Tzeentch might be interested in her.
Mathilde's candidacy is borderline irrelevant and probably bait. No reason to share it and plenty of good reasons not to.
Projectile
Thinking of Rabbits
- Location
- USA
[X] [BELEGAR] Daemon and weakening
[X] [COLLEGE] Everchosen and Greater Daemon
I can definitely see how telling Belegar that the fabric of reality weakened would be unnecessarily stressful, because it sounds way worse than it turned out to be. But that's what the tower was designed to prevent, and it did the job, so framing it like that should lead to... only the appropriate amount of stress, lol.
But I think he definitely deserves to know about a demon a half-step aetherwards from his Karak. Not sure what he could do with that information beyond telling us to stop summoning demons, which, duh, but he might have ideas. More importantly, even though Mathilde doesn't seem a tenth as fazed as the thread, it might be nice to get off her chest.
I notice that telling Belegar about the Everchosen isn't even an option- which I totally agree with. Everything a demon says is a lie, especially the truth, and if there's any use to be made of it... well, that's a Mathilde problem. He doesn't have the bullshit-shifting apparatus the Grey College does. Still, interesting.
tl;dr:
Regimand is a bro about stuff like this, but mentions other people are not. Hm.
What alternative source could have even told Mathilde about the Everchosen, if not a demon?
I'm now firmly convinced that the Everchosen info is nonsense without context, so both or nothing. Regimand's "Why didn't you say something?" about the Asp is pushing me to share both. I'm a little concerned about who in the order we're sharing with- hopefully Regimand first. Awkward 'cause of rank, maybe, but he's both trustworthy and super sketchy!
[X] [COLLEGE] Everchosen and Greater Daemon
I can definitely see how telling Belegar that the fabric of reality weakened would be unnecessarily stressful, because it sounds way worse than it turned out to be. But that's what the tower was designed to prevent, and it did the job, so framing it like that should lead to... only the appropriate amount of stress, lol.
But I think he definitely deserves to know about a demon a half-step aetherwards from his Karak. Not sure what he could do with that information beyond telling us to stop summoning demons, which, duh, but he might have ideas. More importantly, even though Mathilde doesn't seem a tenth as fazed as the thread, it might be nice to get off her chest.
I notice that telling Belegar about the Everchosen isn't even an option- which I totally agree with. Everything a demon says is a lie, especially the truth, and if there's any use to be made of it... well, that's a Mathilde problem. He doesn't have the bullshit-shifting apparatus the Grey College does. Still, interesting.
So. The College. It'd be good to warn them of potential threats, which is why I'm firmly against telling them we're a candidate. Just say no, the Four cannot legally take your soul without your consent. Even aside from not wanting the scrutiny, they'd be wasting effort if they prepared against something that isn't going to happen.
The college is very used to dealing with anonymized information... but I do feel the source is very relevant. Or sources, in this case. If the Lady Magister says anonymous untrustworthy source says Everchosen approaches, that still seems to me to put too much credibility on the claim. Sharing that it's a demon means they know it's untrustworthy untrustworthy.
And now I've half convinced myself not to tell the college anything. When is an Everchosen not coming, really? But, despite many Boney posts along the lines of "No really guys Mathilde is the Grey College here-" she's not actually met a demon she couldn't at least try to immediately murder, I think.
So I looked back to our demon education, and it was light on what to do after you've failed to avoid attention, heh. But I also looked for the closest comparable situations I could recall.
Regimand says this, regarding the last miscast-induced warp-being encounter, which swung me to telltelltell-
The college is very used to dealing with anonymized information... but I do feel the source is very relevant. Or sources, in this case. If the Lady Magister says anonymous untrustworthy source says Everchosen approaches, that still seems to me to put too much credibility on the claim. Sharing that it's a demon means they know it's untrustworthy untrustworthy.
And now I've half convinced myself not to tell the college anything. When is an Everchosen not coming, really? But, despite many Boney posts along the lines of "No really guys Mathilde is the Grey College here-" she's not actually met a demon she couldn't at least try to immediately murder, I think.
So I looked back to our demon education, and it was light on what to do after you've failed to avoid attention, heh. But I also looked for the closest comparable situations I could recall.
Regimand says this, regarding the last miscast-induced warp-being encounter, which swung me to telltelltell-
But also this, which doused my enthusiasm quite a bit.
And Algard's demon check, which helpfully also mentions sources.
Which gets me thinking... where the hell would Mathilde learn about the next hypothetical everchosen, which is a matter of Chaos's internal politics, if her source wasn't primary? From the devious Ranald, theoretically? But that would put waaaay more credibility (lol) on the claim, like I already said.
Regimand is a bro about stuff like this, but mentions other people are not. Hm.
What alternative source could have even told Mathilde about the Everchosen, if not a demon?
I'm now firmly convinced that the Everchosen info is nonsense without context, so both or nothing. Regimand's "Why didn't you say something?" about the Asp is pushing me to share both. I'm a little concerned about who in the order we're sharing with- hopefully Regimand first. Awkward 'cause of rank, maybe, but he's both trustworthy and super sketchy!
[X] [BELEGAR] Daemon and weakening
[X] [COLLEGE] Everchosen and Greater Daemon
I think these ones are good. Belegar has earned our trust so much that i wouldn't be surprised if he would be named godparent if Mathilde ever decided to make a mini-mathilde.
And the colleges should just know in general.
[X] [COLLEGE] Everchosen and Greater Daemon
I think these ones are good. Belegar has earned our trust so much that i wouldn't be surprised if he would be named godparent if Mathilde ever decided to make a mini-mathilde.
And the colleges should just know in general.
- Location
- USA
[X] [BELEGAR] Daemon and weakening
[X] [COLLEGE] Everchosen and Greater Daemon
[X] [COLLEGE] Everchosen and Greater Daemon
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
We didn't get a face to face though. All we witnessed was three of its spells. An auditory illusion spell, an unsuccessful reality breaching spell and a magic power transference/buff spell.
In fact, this having been a Greater Daemon might be a blatant lie. If I were a Daemon and knew my victim would never get to see me I might have lied about that too. One more way to psyche us out.
What if we use necromancy alongside a Sorcerer of Tzeentch? We just need a way to not promote boring stasis with it. Less armies of mindless and obedient dead and more, well, something new and creative.
Would have been funny if on a 7 Boney would have just let Nurgle post the chapter in his stead.Everyone except Nurgle really, who's ironically the one chaos God active in Chat here
Learning about an interaction between Panoramia and Cython would be cool. I don't think we've seen anyone other than Mathilde interact with Cython, but the only reason I can currently think of doing so is randomly dragging someone (Egrimm or Eike) along during a social action.
The thing about necromancy and chaos is less about stasis and more about it being anti-theurgy. Necromancy is the magic designed by an apostate priest in spite of all gods. The reason Tzeench hates necromancy is the same one Sigmar hates it, it's the one thing they agree on.
Well, if we go one step further and assume we're using necromancy to help a Sorcerer of Tzeentch induce a miscast against a greenskin shaman, then we're potentially looking at +109 to our dice roll.
Step 1: Study the Kurgan shrine to Mannisleb with Egrimm. Have Eike tag along.
Step 2: Bring the shrine and the results of the research to Cython, who has expressed some interest in the Kurgan worship of celestial bodies. Bring Eike and Egrimm along to explain what you all learned togther.
Step 3: Cython is a co-author on the paper, following the precedence set by Mathilde's girlfriend. Egrimm swears eternal allegiance to Mathilde for this incredible boost to his prestige, though he for some reason says that Cython "doesn't have enough heads for his liking". Eike co-authors a paper with two Lord Magisters and an Emperor Dragon, and Wilhelmina is moderately impressed. The suspicion cast on Mathilde due to her encounter with a demon (because the way the vote looks we're probably telling the Colleges) is increased tenfold when it is discovered that she has been studying the religion of Chaos marauders.
There you go, a perfectly reasonable reason for Eike and Egrimm to interact with Cython, at the same time even.
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[X] [BELEGAR] Daemon and weakening
For now this looks like a good choice, I'll be keeping an eye on the arguments.
One thing I will say is that telling about Mathy candidacy is pointless. Chaos can't make one an Everchosen against their will, Lord Mortkin and his fate prove that. And I don't see the players voting for that, so we won't be agreeing either.
[x] [BELEGAR] Daemon and weakening
[x] [X] [COLLEGE] Everchosen and Greater Daemon
One thing I will say is that telling about Mathy candidacy is pointless. Chaos can't make one an Everchosen against their will, Lord Mortkin and his fate prove that. And I don't see the players voting for that, so we won't be agreeing either.
[x] [BELEGAR] Daemon and weakening
[x] [X] [COLLEGE] Everchosen and Greater Daemon
- Location
- Australia
Telling no one anything is just as likely to be playing into whatever Tzeentch's schemes are. Guessing what its plans are and how to counter them is a fool's game.
[X] [BELEGAR] Nothing
[X] [BELEGAR] Weakening of reality
[X] [COLLEGE] Nothing
Once again, the only way to win is not to play.
The daemon told us things to advance its agenda. Possibly poisoning Mathilde's reputation to impede adoption of her work, possibly for other reasons.
Not saying anything isn't a betrayal of trust, it's living up to that trust. The Grey College trusts Mathilde to make the call about what information needs to be compartmentalised and which shared. This does not need to be shared.
And as for Belegar. We know he's deeply stressed. Let's not add to his significant burdens to make ourselves feel better. What we can do is learn Gazulite lore next turn and try to learn how to protect liminal realms, so we can be more sure that reality will heal, but that's all of our responsibilities. Dwarven kings know that their lore masters like runesmiths and engineers keep secrets from them for the greater good, and that's not a problem.
[X] [BELEGAR] Weakening of reality
[X] [COLLEGE] Nothing
Once again, the only way to win is not to play.
The daemon told us things to advance its agenda. Possibly poisoning Mathilde's reputation to impede adoption of her work, possibly for other reasons.
Not saying anything isn't a betrayal of trust, it's living up to that trust. The Grey College trusts Mathilde to make the call about what information needs to be compartmentalised and which shared. This does not need to be shared.
And as for Belegar. We know he's deeply stressed. Let's not add to his significant burdens to make ourselves feel better. What we can do is learn Gazulite lore next turn and try to learn how to protect liminal realms, so we can be more sure that reality will heal, but that's all of our responsibilities. Dwarven kings know that their lore masters like runesmiths and engineers keep secrets from them for the greater good, and that's not a problem.
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That all seems perfectly reasonable, and I have no objections to it.
How? People are saying that; but how is that possible? Otherwise the daemon simply wouldn't have spoken to us, as telling no one about this is what would have happened if he didn't.
And note this isn't Tzeentch's infinite schemes. This is one particular Greater Daemon that will have its own agenda.
We should be judging this on the basis of whether we'd have done this if the daemon hadn't showed up. We clearly wouldn't be talking to people about the daemon if it hadn't, so anything about that is right out.
The one thing we might mention is the weakening of reality, as that would/may have happened either way.
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- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
I like the chapter. It is obviously less exciting than the previous one, but I think it reflects the thread's attitude quite well.
While many people were worried about us becoming suspicious and parallel to that many had fun analyzing the exact words of the Daemon, I didn't notice any commenter being worried about anything the Daemon actually said. And thread consensus got perfectly translated in that regard. Conclusions like "our hat is still cool", the importance of a new Everchosen being on the horizon combined with the knowledge that one was due anyway, the taking all names other than Egrimm's at face value (even if the thread only did it due to OOC knowledge), the conclusion that treating Egrimm differently now makes no more sense than it did for this thread before and the utter rejection of the temptation as fun but stupid are all well represented. As is the fear of the personal consequences of disclosure, even if worded far leas panicky.
Thanks for the attention you pay to all of us, Boney.
While many people were worried about us becoming suspicious and parallel to that many had fun analyzing the exact words of the Daemon, I didn't notice any commenter being worried about anything the Daemon actually said. And thread consensus got perfectly translated in that regard. Conclusions like "our hat is still cool", the importance of a new Everchosen being on the horizon combined with the knowledge that one was due anyway, the taking all names other than Egrimm's at face value (even if the thread only did it due to OOC knowledge), the conclusion that treating Egrimm differently now makes no more sense than it did for this thread before and the utter rejection of the temptation as fun but stupid are all well represented. As is the fear of the personal consequences of disclosure, even if worded far leas panicky.
Thanks for the attention you pay to all of us, Boney.
@Boney did we pressure the AV with our freeform Ulgu skills or purely with our magically trained soul somehow? Because I notice that Mathilde's theory doesn't include the thought that Ulgu was specifically involved with the results of the experiment despite Ulgu being associated with liminal realms.
Why is talking about the Daemon without mentioning the Everchosen stuff not an option and how would Mathilde launder the Everchosen stuff if she stays mumm about a Daemon contacting her? Also, can we write in Daemon contact without specifying that it was a Greater one (technically we have no proof of that other than the Daemon's own claims) or would there be no point to that?
If we are to mention our supposed candidacy, would we also mention Egrimm's and Alric's supposed (former) candidacy? If nothing else, the cost of sacrificing three LMs over the words of some Daemon is greater than just one and there's no reason to kill only Mathilde if the same source names three potentials.