Ostland and Ostermark Hedgewise get on with the Hag Witches, yeah.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Ostland and Ostermark Hedgewise get on with the Hag Witches, yeah.
Sir_Travelsalot
Never wakes up tired.
- Location
- At Home
Considering Bretonnia (or, more specifically, the Fay Enchantress and Damsels) have a way to detect magical potential in infants, it seems unlikely for the magical traditions of Hedgewise to endure there, given that there wouldn't be anyone to teach the Lore of the Hedge itself to. Of course, there's nothing saying that the regular parts about poultices, herbalism and the like couldn't still be passed on, especially in the Forest of Arden.
Last edited:
NeonLights
Formerly Reliable_2IC
- Location
- In shambles
[X] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
[X][HOUSE] Yes
[x] Plan All in, but discreet
[X][HOUSE] Yes
[x] Plan All in, but discreet
Last edited:
- Location
- Earth
Really likely no. Aksel is a Nordlander Hedgewise, not an Ostlander or Ostermarker, and Niedzwenka normally lives up in Erengrad rather than in the rural regions near the Empire-Kislev border.
Probably not. Aksel's a Nordlander and there's about a hundred miles of farms and steppe between the edge of the Forest of Shadows and Erengrad.
Dyrath being Haleth's sister is almost certainly not quest canonical. I already asked about Goddesses thought to be sisters, and Dyrath and Haleth weren't mentioned:
Also, if we're playing name games - and if we're talking about Haleth we obviously are - Dyrath's name includes an anagram of Rhya. Obvioulsy doesn't prove anything, but I think that Dyrath is likelier to be an aspect of Rhya, or else somehow be connected to her, than be connected to Shallya.
More generally, fertility isn't a big Shallya connection. Shallya is connected to childbirth, yes, but it's hardly her main association. It was good enough as Halétha's connection to Shallya because Halétha is the one that resembles Ranald, but her sister needs to "heavily resemble" Shallya, and just being a fertility Goddess probably doesn't cut it. That's why Haleth was always kind of a weak theory, especially after we got our books on minor Empire Gods and didn't find any evidence that Haleth has additional connections to Shallya but did find evidence that she's likely the result of a Haléthan disaporia.
I think even Halétha, who is almost certainly the daughter that takes after Ranald, might have more connections to Shallya than just the fertility angle. Shades of Empire obliquely refers to menstruation as Halétha's tears, which aside from being another fertility connection is an even more direct connection to Shallya since tears are a big thing in Shallya's symbolism. And if you start going through the canonical Hedgewise spell list there are a bunch of Shallyan connections: there are healing spells that protect from and cure disease (Protection Pouch and Nostrum respectively) which are pretty similar in effect to canonical Shallyan spells, and there's a spell called Nepenthe that causes someone to forget all about a person they wish to forget in a kind of consensual version of Mindhole. The word Nepenthe comes from Greek mythology, and it refers to a drug that helps one forget their sorrows. The implication here is that this spell is used to help people deal with grief, such as with forgetting a person who died or a loved one who has left them and who they can't get over. This seems like Shallya's mercy, in that it is spell for the purpose of alleviating suffering. There's also a bunch of spells that arguably have Ranaldite connections but Halétha really doesn't lack for Ranald connections so whatever. Mind you, unlike with the spell Halétha's Joy it's not clear that Halétha is connected to those spells, which is why I haven't mentioned this before.
In any case once we learn more about Halétha from Aksel I think we'll have a much better idea about how to find her sister. Even if there aren't any direct leads to her sister, having a detailed description of one of Ranald's daughters will probably make it easier to know what kind of thing we're looking for.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- They
Hey guys I just noticed the leading plan for Tindomiel allows them to dedicate Hekarti in thr Empire in exchange for their magical theorist.
Is that really a wise idea? Hekarti isn't legal in the empire and humans have notoriously bad track records with worshipping Elven Gods.
If we really want the Magical Theorist, it seems like Discretion + Bretonnia/Kislev/Empire is a better combination? Since that would have Tindomiel picking a recognized Major God in the Old World Pantheon. It seems less likely to cause issues with the Witch Hunters.
Is that really a wise idea? Hekarti isn't legal in the empire and humans have notoriously bad track records with worshipping Elven Gods.
If we really want the Magical Theorist, it seems like Discretion + Bretonnia/Kislev/Empire is a better combination? Since that would have Tindomiel picking a recognized Major God in the Old World Pantheon. It seems less likely to cause issues with the Witch Hunters.
- Location
- Utrecht
The daughters are wearing cat onesies
Hekrati is not legal to worship as Hekrati in the Empire. Dedication as opposed to shrine means she is wearing a mustache as someone recognized. Who that is we do not really care as long as they are legal.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
There is a kind of spiritual argument that the Hedge itself is the weald of spirits that do not amount to godhood, and that the Hedgewise thus, instead of acting as priests who are the envoys of Gods unto the people, are instead the envoys of the people unto the spirits. Maybe you could convince the attendees of the Grand Conclave that since powerful enough spirits may be called Gods, that those whose job it is to stand as diplomat, defender and ambassador between those 'realms' of spirits and their village whose magic is entirely rooted within those spirits are thus a kind of petty priesthood, whose Divine Magic comes not wholesale from a single great divinity like Sigmar, or even the petty gods of the great rivers like the Reik, but patchwork from the lesser spirits of stone, spring, forest and greater convocations such as the seasons. Why, look to Athel Loren itself if one wishes to understand how dangerous those untamed spirits can be if not courted with care!
And yes, Hedgewise can fall to darkness and Chaos just as the spirits can be corrupted, but to remove those who watch the spirits for corruption and propitiate them not to fall to Chaos at all is foolhardy to extremity, almost guaranteeing that the obscene Bray-Shamans have dominion over them unopposed. The Hedgewise thus must be watched carefully, but permitted as even the great priesthoods of Sigmar, Taal, Rhya and Ulric cannot be everywhere at once in all things. Set the Greys, Jades and Ambers to watch them as they are the secular force best suited to ensure no darkness clouds them, while their greatest leaders are to be summoned before the Grand Conclave to report of the comings and goings of the little spirits.
Well, this is the tack I'd be pushing for if we'd chosen the 'High Priest Of Ranald' route.
- Location
- Finland
Pretty sure discreet means she is wearing the mustache.
Dedication is still to Hekarthi, just obscure enough that most people won't recognice them.
- Location
- Canada
Dedications are not Shrines
Dedication just means that Tindomiel will stamp their Waystones with some non obvious runes and carvings for Hekarti
It's specifically only recognizable as a dedication to her by someone already very familiar with Elven Gods
There is no material present for random peasants to start picking up Hekarti worship, all they'll see is another obelisk or henge
The only way Hekarti worship is going to spread into the Empire via this is if somebody actively tries
It's not out of the question that if and when these Waystones start getting built that one group or another will start digging deep enough into the matter to learn about Hekarti and her dedications, and maybe some of them might kick up a bit of fuss about it
But
- It's way off in the future, so there'll be opportunity to adjust and address as it comes, if it ever does
- Hekarti is not a forbidden god, Hekarti simply has no legal status in the Empire period, since she's not worshipped there. And this isn't setting up a new cult in the Empire, it's just elves stamping her runes onto the Waystones that they personally help make. Burning elves for worshipping elven gods is a bit much even for hardline Sigmarites. If there's any friction an escalation into burnings is highly unlikely
- Not every Waystone is going to be made by Tindomiel anyway
- Pronouns
- They
No, dedication is still hekarti without a mustache because the description says the markings can be discovered by those well-versed in Elven Gods.
Discretion is Hekarti in a mustache by having Tindomiel pick one of the recognized Old World Gods to dedicate to. This has been clarified by Boney:
I mean Boney has said in the worst case scenario, Witch hunters will be called in to persecute any hint of Hekarti Worship.
Putting markings of Elven Gods on Waystones built in the Empire is still going to trigger the overzealous Cult of Sigmar and other local caretakers who see it as unnecessary infringement though?
Witch Hunters will be able to recognize the markings as they're supposed to root out things like cults of Elf Gods (Khaine, etc).
Hekarti isn't forbidden but she's not going to be recognized legally when there's no basis for her worship/domain in the Empire, she's the Goddess of Wild Magic and there's a very strong prejudice against magic in the empire.
The problem is not persecution of Elven worship, but that detractors in the Empire would block and hamper efforts to build Waystones if it comes with Hekarti symbols attached. Avoiding this potential controversy through Discretion seems like a no-brainer pick, since Tindomiel is fine with choosing a legally recognized Old world God to dedicate anyway.
Last edited:
The same style of clothes the artist depicted Ranald and Shallya wearing.
- Location
- Canada
Slight correction
Hekarti isn't exactly illegal per say, because Hekarti has no legal status at all in the Empire currently
Discreet means that Tindomiel will pick a legal, local god of any given region that they believe is Hekarti in a mustache, or close enough
Whether they are actually right about that is a whole theological discussion that Cython might be interested in, depending
You need to read that quote more carefully
It's not Hekarti worship in and of itself that's the problem there, it's the fact that only Magisters can legally do magic in the Empire that's the issue
Since she's the Mistress of Magic and it's near inseparably tied to her worship if somebody who isn't a legal Wizard starts worshipping her then they're close enough to running afoul of the Articles for it to be dangerous for their health
But a Magister would be hypothetically fine
An Elven God, like say Khaine, isn't banned from the Empire simply because they're Elven, they're banned if and when they prove dangerously problematic
In Khaine's case this would be because of all the murder, but even then they treat Khaine's human cult and his Elven one as distinct, seperate entities
Last edited:
I don't like current winning plan for 2 reasons.
1. I would like to contain Elven politics/religion to Laurelorn. Let Elves deal with each other. There is no need to add potential tensions to the Project.
2. We are not getting an heir, when originally we planned to get House Tindomiel for political influence and legitimacy. We have many researchers and no one to help us with Elven intricacies.
Well, at least we are resonable enough to not promise anything outside of Empire.
neutronium95
Mad Rocketeer
- Location
- The test site
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Plan: Just the Heir
-[X] [SCOPE] Laurelorn (0)
-[x] [REP] Heir (-1)
-[X] [FORM] Shrines (+1)
-[X] [SCOPE] Laurelorn (0)
-[x] [REP] Heir (-1)
-[X] [FORM] Shrines (+1)
Wait, farming? Isn't farming very firmly in Rhya's ballpark? On what basis do the Sitrlanders connect Albaulea to Shallya? Is there anything in our Bretonnian books or in Mathilde's general knowledge of Shallya that connects Shallya to farming?
Also, I know I've asked about Haleth before but I think considering the circumstances both Mathilde and the thread have cause to take more interest in Her, so just to make sure: what are Haleth's domains, exactly? Hunting and fertility, and that's it? And is it fertility soley related to human reproduction or do people pray to Her for bountiful harvests or something?
Huh, I was picturing Ranald as the Doomsayer art from Hearthstone and the two children wearing little Greek togas. No Shallya but there is a tree in the background.
[X] Plan: Just the Heir
-[X] [SCOPE] Laurelorn (0)
-[x] [REP] Heir (-1)
-[X] [FORM] Shrines (+1)
[X] [HOUSE] No
[X] [HEDGEWISE] Secretly
Albaulea's general vibe is nurturing the plants so they in turn will nourish you, aligning her in the minds of some with Shallya's compassion rather than Rhya's bounty of nature and the turning of seasons. The Old Gods in general tend to be less prominent in the southern provinces.
Haleth isn't worshipped as Goddess of Hunting and Fertility, she's worshipped in northern provinces as the Lady of the Hunt and in Middenland as Goddess of Fertility, with only a little bit of geographical overlap between the two in northern Middenland. And there's no strict definitive list of requests that people are restricted to praying to Her for, people who worship Her pray to Her for anything they think She can help with. Usually that's for having children, but it's a short hop from there to hoping that the lambing goes well.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
If they had, say, a measly 900 year age difference with one being around 4300 years old and the other just 3400, how should their portrait look?
Wasn't Taal the river god? That's what I remember having been said in the thread before in this context at least.
Boney confirmed that Hekarti isn't illegal in the Empire (yet). Also, Elven holy symbols on a bunch of stones don't on their own establish a problematic religion that Humans can't handle in a healthy way. It's just Elf stuff on Elf stones. If anything it's right and proper for Elves to not keep such an important endeavor secular.
What's this notoriously bad track record by the way? To my knowledge the only one that Humans worship without a name change is Khaine. That went notoriously bad because he is a notoriously bad god. But a single example does not make a track record and while Hekarti is also Cytharai and has her issues, she's no Khaine.