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In cannon the widow was Vayla, it may be different here but since both her siblings are dead I am thinking it may be true here too.
I saw that claimed once in-thread, I do not recall if that was ever actually confirmed.

Also, what do you mean by "but since both her siblings are dead"?

(Also, if this is canon, it's from the End Times, which Boney is generally happy ignoring)
 
And this is why it's always a pain when I remember we have a way to know for sure, but can't use it.

Sigh, what's done is done, and what's burnt is burnt.

We might not be able to tear down curtain and expose the gods for what they are, but we've begun the journey to becoming close confidants of a small but powerful family, and whilst that means respecting Their secrets, it means in return that They can trust us, and that has value of its own.

Also we're significantly less likely to be burnt at the stake for heresy this way.

In cannon the widow was Vayla, it may be different here but since both her siblings are dead I am thinking it may be true here too.

That sounds like it might be an End Times thing because I don't think I've heard that before. Valya was married to Grungni and Grimmnir, and some dwarves (mostly those from warrior clans) still practice polyandry to this day.
 
I'll be perfectly honest with you, if Valaya was confirmed as the Widow in End Times, I don't know how they did it. Kislev is destroyed within the first section of the first book, End Times Nagash, and it happens offscreen. We don't even get to see Tzarina Katarin, she just sends a message to Karl Franz through a Boyar saying "We're lost, don't bother saving us. We'll buy as much time as we can". Valaya is later turned into a plot device that Thorek and Neferata fight over because there's a gate leading to her in the World's Edge Mountains close to Lahmia, and Thorek loses and dies. I know that Nagash later eats Valaya to recuperate his energies as part of his ascension.

There is nowhere in that series of events that I can see Widow=Valaya ever being revealed and making sense.
 
Vayla in the end times had spent a unknown amount of time gathering power to create a portal to take the dawi to a paradise world. Nagash kills her and takes the energy. While not confirmed she is the widow, I think it is likely. Vayla is the only widow god mention. There is a large nexus of waystones with power going to pragg for some reason. The widow complaint about her brothers dying. I wish we could confirm it but really we have no way to.
 
I'm not 100% on this, but my understanding is that the Cult of Ahalt was outlawed first, then became focused around sacrifice?

My understanding is that the Cult of Taal absolutely got other nature gods outlawed.
This is true in 2e, but not to my knowledge in quest, which I was referrring to.

I suspect it's a mix.

If you worship a minor forest god, you have two possibilities:

1) Proclaim that your god is an aspect of Taal. This retroactively authorizes any dancing-naked-in-the-woods stuff you've been doing, and puts one of the most influential institutions in the Empire formally on your side.

2) Do not proclaim that your god is an aspect of Taal. Now you're on your own. Taalite clergy may actively inform on you, because they know for sure your rites aren't their perfectly legitimate rights, so who knows what other creepy shit you might be doing in the forest? This may be a cynical political move on their part, or you may just be dealing with Taalite clergymen who are individually a bit crazy; it doesn't even matter, either way, you get investigated by Witch Hunters who may or may not decide to burn you at the stake.

Even if at no point in the process are the Taalites openly saying "convert or die," there is still a strong connection between Taal's ability to provide an outlet for Imperially authorized and orthodox nature-worship, and the Witch Hunter's broad license to persecute and destroy unauthorized, heterodox, 'suspicious' nature-worship.
Oh there's a ton of pressure and suspicion place on non-Taalite cults. All I was saying is that the Taalites aren't going "here's a non-Taalite nature god, call the witch hunters to kill them all and set up Taal instead". It's still not a very nice or clean process, and certainly does have that threat behind it, but it's not SOP.

It is also possible that the second goddess is older.

Basth is not a terrible guess.
Possible, but unlikely. The portrait presented them as being similar in age, and I doubt Ranald would decieve Mathilde about this.

Fantasy Flight went on to publish 3rd Edition, and I've only heard bad things about that Edition,
Not read 3rd edition, but to my knowledge people hated the mechanics, rather than the writing. 3e was very different, and more than a little cash-grabby.
 
We might not be able to tear down curtain and expose the gods for what they are, but we've begun the journey to becoming close confidants of a small but powerful family, and whilst that means respecting Their secrets, it means in return that They can trust us, and that has value of its own.
I still disagree, but for the sake of not rehashing yet another argument that'll leave everyone feeling salty, let's just agree that I'm more on the scientific side and you're more of a mystic.
 
Vayla in the end times had spent a unknown amount of time gathering power to create a portal to take the dawi to a paradise world. Nagash kills her and takes the energy. While not confirmed she is the widow, I think it is likely. Vayla is the only widow god mention. There is a large nexus of waystones with power going to pragg for some reason. The widow complaint about her brothers dying. I wish we could confirm it but really we have no way to.
Valaya isn't a widow though? Why are you saying she is? Valaya died in the End Times, but Grimnir and Grungni survived.
 
I haven't seen much discussion on the Hedgewise vote, but I'm worried that Discreetly would only endanger them further. Isn't the Cult of Haletha synonymous with the Nordlander hedgewise? Wouldn't that effectively draw unwanted scrutiny to them, especially if the Nordlander EC becomes aware of it?

If the many enemies of the Hedgewise become aware of it, wouldn't they have reason to interfere with thr Waystone Project?

Secretly would help cover their involvement under the Grey Order's aegis and keep things kosher from a PR standpoint. Plus it boosts the credibility of the colleges retaining Waystone lore.
 
Valaya isn't a widow though? Why are you saying she is? Valaya died in the End Times, but Grimnir and Grungni survived.
Do we know that Vayla is not the widow? A god with power and knowledge of waystones. Hates Chaos and other destroyer factions. We do not know and have no way of confirming or denying. Also Grimmnir was thought dead because of the third warp portal. Grungi is gone Or hiding. Than there is the nexus of waystones sending power to what is under pragg. Since the order gods do not exist either the fire spire had someway of changing the flow of power or some thing is gathering power.
 
Agh I keep wanting to develop the theory but I keep running into the brick wall that is Rhya-Isha-Shallya. Isha and Loec tricked Ellinilli into destroying his children, and Kislev has a similar story about Salyak and Ranald, and Deathfang claims that Rhya isn't Isha. But Isha is married to Kurnous, who might be Taal, and most people, including Cython, believe that Rhya and Isha are actually the same person. Either someone is wrong, or Rhya and Shallya are the same person, and if that's true then Halath and Dyrath are more than aspects, they are Rhya-Shallya's daughters, but how could Rhya and Shallya be the same person? Or maybe Shallya and Isha are the same person, and Rhya is trying to steal Isha-Shallya's territory? Claiming that various minor deities are actually aspects of Herself rather than separate gods, maybe?

What if there's a conflict between Isha and Kurnous, and Rhya and Taal, who claim the same domains but are all separate people? Does Isha have two husbands? Is she seeing Ranald behind Kuronus's back? Is Ranald Kuronus? Has Asuryan died for real and been replaced by Loec wearing His mask? I'm so confused.
Well, don't despair. Maybe it'll make more sense if someone makes a concept map or something to try to get it all straight. Or you could use us as a programming rubber ducky and continue saying out loud the things you don't understand, that can legitimately work sometimes.

Personally, I can't imagine Ranald is Kurnous, there's not much conceptual overlap beyond Isha-Shallya; Ranald is not a horned god of the wilds.
 
Do we know that Vayla is not the widow? A god with power and knowledge of waystones. Hates Chaos and other destroyer factions. We do not know and have no way of confirming or denying. Also Grimmnir was thought dead because of the third warp portal. Grungi is gone Or hiding. Than there is the nexus of waystones sending power to what is under pragg. Since the order gods do not exist either the fire spire had someway of changing the flow of power or some thing is gathering power.
What makes you think Valaya has knowledge of Waystones?

The Dwarf-Elf Waystone Collab happened hundreds of years after the Vortex went up and the Ancestor Gods disappeared.
 
What makes you think Valaya has knowledge of Waystones?

The Dwarf-Elf Waystone Collab happened hundreds of years after the Vortex went up and the Ancestor Gods disappeared.
The dawi were creations of the Old ones, who made the original network. I figure the gods made for their species would know. Or the the dawi gods were literally just the first dawi created who ended ascending to gods.
 
Isn't the Cult of Haletha synonymous with the Nordlander hedgewise?
That's not the impression I get?
She is often referred to as the Goddess of the Forest of Shadows, but specifically she is the one who protects people from the Forest of Shadows. While Taal and Rhya are those worshipped in the larger towns and cities, in the rest of Ostland many call on Halétha instead. Where Taal and Rhya is 'here's how to live in harmony with nature', Halétha is more 'there is no nature here, here's how to carve something you can live on from the darkness'.
It seems that she is widely worshiped by people who live near the Forest of Shadows as a general prophylactic "please protect me from your shit" sort of thing, not just by Hedgewise. Granted, I do think that people are more likely to suspect that he's secretly a Hedgewise if that's his cover identity, but I also think that, as people have mentioned, this is a potential route to legitimizing the Hedgewise as members of an approved Cult rather than as unsanctioned magic-users, so it seems like a wash to me: slightly more downside risk, slightly more upside potential.
 
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Presenting Aksel as a member of Cult is also a good middle ground between those who want Hedgewise to get some credit and those who don't want to have risk of openly accepting them.
We are not transporting the whole Hedgewise group to Laurelorn, just a single man, right?
 
That's not the impression I get?

It seems that she is widely worshiped by people who live near the Forest of Shadows as a general prophylactic "please protect me from your shit" sort of thing, not just by Hedgewise. Granted, I do think that people are more likely to suspect that he's secretly a Hedgewise if that's his cover identity, but I also think that, as people have mentioned, this is a potential route to legitimizing the Hedgewise as members of an approved Cult rather than as unsanctioned magic-users, so it seems like a wash to me: slightly more downside risk, slightly more upside potential.
Isn't the unsanctioned magic-user issue which the Hedgewise face because the Cult of Haletha doesn't provide enough legitimacy for them currently as is? Based on this snippet:
According to Shades of Empire Page 56:

"Were this the extent of their activities, the Hedgefolk would not attract so much attention from Witch Hunters and Magisters. Most Cunning Folk also sell an array of potions and talismans of a dubious kind, such as love philtres, lucky charms, protection pouches, and similar items, all of which are deemed to be the province of witchcraft by many overzealous Sigmarites. Worse, a minority—called the Blessed Few by the Hedgefolk— channel magic. Although they believe their powers to be granted by the Gods, Imperial Law does not agree. As far as the authorities are concerned, the Blessed Few are Witches, and when found guilty, they are burned."

So I'm not sure about that. All Hedgefolk are dedicated to some sort of divine entity, some of which we know, some of which we don't. They are not, in fact, a secular entity. Their magic mechanically holds different powers than Divine Magic, but that isn't to say that they're not Cult-ish.
 
"Rhya, too, has her sub-cults, such as Haleth in the north and Dyrath in the west, the latter symbolising her aspect as Lady of Fertility and Midwifery" Page 40

"Other popular deities are Dyrath, a regional name for Rhya whom the Reiklanders of Vorbergland honour as the patroness of fertility" Page 81

"Dyrath's spindle": Destiny or fate. (From the belief that the umbilical cord is spun by Dyrath and handed to Morr, so that he may pull people into his realm when it is their time.) (Sayings of Reikland) Page 81
These really do sound like a daughter of Ranald and Shallya, the fate or destiny aspect could easily be spun off from Ranalds luck aspects, and the rest, well midwifery likely comes under healing.

I'm convinced at this point.
 
...So the Hedgewise not only don't have any demands but also let us choose how they're presented in the project? Hm. That's a lot more powerful than I expected.

[X] [HOUSE] Yes
[X] Plan Discretion Is The Watchword
We did already spend an AP on this. May as well try to make the most of it.

[X] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
 
[x] [HOUSE] Yes
[x] [HEDGEWISE] Secretly
[x] Plan: Just the Heir
[x] Plan Discretion Is The Watchword
[x] Shrines for Heir
[x] Plan Political Leverage
[x] Plan Middle Ground
 
This is an astonishingly good find, well done. Your reasoning seems sound to me, and this has now catapulted over Haleth and the Lady for contenders for the second Daughter, the one who favors their Mother. It won't help us out on the Waystone project, but might still be handy in the future, and getting one assist (especially for a very secretive group) is pretty nice.

Boney, we have Minor Gods of the Empire (Extensive & Esoteric): does Mathilde have any information about Dyrath beyond what's been shared here, especially regarding the Haleth connection?

Fertility seems to be a theological grey area, and though the Gods involved are often claimed to be linked to Rhya, they never seem to take the usual next step of being subsumed as aspects or subservient spirits of Her. In contrast, Stirland has the fertility goddess Narvorga and farming goddess Albaulea, both of which are tentatively linked to Shallya instead of Rhya. One theory is that as Rhya is the Earth Mother and Shallya is the Maiden of Mercy, women who are sexually active but not yet mothers is something of a theological no woman's land that other independent Goddesses have arisen in. This is sometimes linked to Vylmar and Katya, sometimes rather tediously use this as grounds to denounce female sexuality in general, other times more positively as proof that this represents a sort of protected theological reef where forms of life can flourish where normally they'd be easy prey for larger predators.

It's rather similar to other points of tension between major Gods, such as River Gods caught between Rhya and Manann, or Trade Gods that are sometimes linked to either Ranald or Manann. The business in Sylvania brings to mind that there might also be terrain between Taal and Manann that Gods of wetlands are able to survive within.

Isn't the unsanctioned magic-user issue which the Hedgewise face because the Cult of Haletha doesn't provide enough legitimacy for them currently as is? Based on this snippet:

Hedgewise would have a lot better chance of making a claim that Hedgecraft is Divine Magic and therefore okay if they could agree which God they got it from. Existing answers include Haletha, Verena, Ranald, forest spirits, the seasons, and 'none of your business'.
 
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I guess it's just that Rhya and her cult are a lot less aggressive about subsuming gods with similar domains than Taal and his followers are.

And yeah, Hedge Magic does strike me as being closer to Arcane than Divine magic in a similar vein to Elementalism, that happens to have a particular resonance with Ulgu.
 
Are Hedgefolk only in the Reik basin, or are there known groups of them elsewhere in the Old World?
 
So the Hedgewise and Hag witches get along and respect each other. Realms of Sorcery

The Hags—Kislevite spirit Witches—share much in common with the Hedgefolk. Because of this, during times of persecution, the Hedgefolk may find a safe haven amongst the Ungo Hags, and vice versa. However, the Hags believe men are incapable of safely wielding magic without eventually succumbing to the temptations of the Ruinous Powers, so they never help male Hedgefolk who are of the Blessed Few. Fortunately, most of the Hedgefolk in Ostermark and Ostland share this belief, and female Blessed Few dominate the area, so this is rarely much of an issue.
 
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