Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Rafin · Apr 30, 2022

Glau said:
Wow. The thread really doesn't like elves, huh. Or perhaps better to say that it is so primed to see arrogance to be pushed back on that it lashes out at least provocation.

The elves basically offered to do most of the heavy lifting in terms of construction in exchange for just putting a maker's mark on it and a large minority of the thread is "how dare you!?!"

Sheesh.

I don't know about others, but my racist bias in this situation is not against Elves. It's against Cytharai. I couldn't care less about the arrogance, perceived or otherwise. If Tindomiel had asked for a Human developed battle magic spell from each College so "their kids have something new to play with" and also expected a fair amount of ass kissing from Mathilde I would still think it would me worth to try and make it work. Meanwhile I would also have less compunctions with making all the Waystones outright and unsubtle shrines to Hoeth.

On top of that is my natural suspicion of their offer. If someone says "I'll only do you this favor if you also allow me to do you this other specific favor. What's in it for me? Oh, you don't need to worry about that." then my alarm bells go off. I'd rather be confronted by a steep but above board price.

Sure, maybe I am prejudiced. But right now our knowledge on Cytharai is based on mostly negative stuff. "The world as it is" is just not pretty, especially in the magic department. So I am working with what I've got.

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
From what we've observed in quest, every single Taalite holy place we've visited is built on top of a waystone. If King Taal the Hunter, Lord of the Forest, isn't abusing the waystones through His sites of worship, then I don't see why Hekarti would do the same.

Taal has a track record of being more good than bad overall and if he is an Elven God then he is Kurnous, a Cadai. We don't know Hekarti enough to trust her like that.

Codex said:
I'm also a bit surprised that Hekarti has such an... inviting form.

It's fanart and fanart is often more... thirsty than it needs to be, especially if its Dark Elf related, but this is the first image that pops up if I google Hekarti.

Of note are the six items she holds, which are canon afaik.

TreP · Apr 30, 2022

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I don't even know how to respond to this one. It's not a question of authority. Hell, Mathilde currently does not have permission to build any waystones anywhere yet, regardless of their religious dedication. Mathilde is not forcing Kislev and Bretonnia to accept a foreign god, she's acknowledging that Tindomiel, as one of the primary craftspeople, have the right to decorate it as they wish. She's not making state level decisions on the behalf of a foreign nation.

Exactly my point. Mathilde doesn't have any permissions, yet is expected to make long-time commitment based on having those permissions. That sounds wrong.

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
The entire reason Boris sent two witches is to get the elves to build things, that's why they are here. To get secrets from the elves.

To get secrets they would not be able to use because Tindomiel will have right of refusal for indefinitely long time?

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Gold isn't the bottleneck here. Tindomiel do not have an infinite number of mages with an infinite number of AP. They can only build a certain number of waystones at once, and once they reach that cap we will have to seek expertise elsewhere.

True, they don't have an infinite number of mages. Nor they are forced to accept every Waystone construction task. Nothing stops them from picking only most prestigious ones.

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Gods, this fearmongering about how Mathilde doesn't have the right to make this decision is giving me a headache. Listening to some of the arguments, Tindomiel is either too naive and incompetent to realise Mathilde can't enforce their demands, or they are malicious zealots trying to antagonise everyone on the continent.

Tindomiel is a perfectly normal Elven house. Desire to get more glory and prestige for themselves and their Goddess is perfectly normal as well. That doesn't mean that it's convenient for anyone else. It's just a business. For me, it doesn't seem right to go all-in for long-time commitments, when we are not in urgent need. Especially, considering that we can always renegotiate for bigger involvement later. Is it fearmongering?

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Or maybe, just maybe, they are so keen for the waystone project to succeed

You mean, so keen that they waited for us to approach them, and then told us any contribution will be on their terms? That does not sounds very keen to me.

Prompt Critical · Apr 30, 2022

[X] Plan: Just the Heir

kfrar · Apr 30, 2022

Raydom said:
Mhm, welp that sound's bad. I would like to give the elves the benefit of the doubt that they'll try to adapt worship of Hekarti to human mass managable levels but they are super isolationists to the point those who could speak riekspiel are suddenly sweeped of the streets so that's like a nope from me even if they are well intentioned

Maybe if the heir proves convincing and worthy to us, maybe he tries to renegotiate with us and say's he researched understands the worry of humans worshipping elven god's as elve's do and will try to change how the priest manage such sites i'd consider allowing them to set up waystone shrines in the empire.

Even then he'd have to prove himself, and be super charasmatic like Belegar to get the chance from us at the very least.

Look, Tindomiel is offering all of their services up front in return for a check that we only need to cash if we win the lottery.

I understand being wary about going full Shrines to Hekarti for the Entire Old World, but like - come on. We're being offered a 100% chance of skilled labor now in return for a 90% chance of paying literally nothing and a 10% chance of paying some future political inconvenience while also winning the political lottery.

Future us can deal with our future first-world problems; for now, we should make sure we're taking Tindomiel for all we can.

Codex · Apr 30, 2022

Rafin said:
It's fanart and fanart is often more... thirsty than it needs to be, especially if its Dark Elf related, but this is the first image that pops up if I google Hekarti.

I have not perused the fanart for Warhammer, so I can't say much about it, but that fanart basically uses what I call "standard comicbook female body". The incredibly thin waist and curvy... assets coupled with the ridiculous flexibility making you think her spine/internal organs aren't alright immediately brings that to mind.

I can't say this is what I imagine Hekarti to look tbh.

picklepikkl · Apr 30, 2022

kfrar said:
Look, Tindomiel is offering all of their services up front in return for a check that we only need to cash if we win the lottery.

I understand being wary about going full Shrines to Hekarti for the Entire Old World, but like - come on. We're being offered a 100% chance of skilled labor now in return for a 90% chance of paying literally nothing and a 10% chance of paying some future political inconvenience while also winning the political lottery.

Future us can deal with our future first-world problems; for now, we should make sure we're taking Tindomiel for all we can.

This is a really important point which I think has been getting lost in the shuffle. Before about sixteen hours ago, we considered "making new Waystones" a crazy best-case stretch goal, and we should remember that. "Only pay us if that happens" is a hell of an offer.

thisisinsane · Apr 30, 2022

[X] Plan Discretion Is The Watchword
-[X] [SCOPE] Empire, Bretonnia, and Kislev (+3)
-[x] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
-[x] [FORM] Discreet (-1)

[x] [HOUSE] No
[x] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly

MiracleGrow · Apr 30, 2022

[x] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
[x] [HOUSE] Yes
[x] Plan: Just the Heir

TreP · Apr 30, 2022

picklepikkl said:
This is a really important point which I think has been getting lost in the shuffle. Before about sixteen hours ago, "making new Waystones" was a crazy best-case stretch goal, and we should remember that. "Only pay us if that happens" is a hell of an offer.

Most of their contribution - which is building Waystones - also happens only if Project is a success. I'm not against this deal on principle, I'm against commiting to it that early. We start slow, recruit an Heir, use Tindomiel political power (isn't that why we approached them in the first place?), deepen our relationship. And if everything is alright, Project shows success, then we get permissions from other contributors and renegotiate the deal with Tindomiel.

picklepikkl · Apr 30, 2022

TreP said:
Most of their contribution - which is building Waystones - also happens only if Project is a success.

If we get their magical theorist, that helps us with literally every step along the way. We only pay out if we hit the jackpot, but we benefit from their aid for such things as "laying the foundations," "improving lornalim efficiency," and "repairing broken/corrupted Waystones." This seems reasonable to me.

ReImagined · Apr 30, 2022

TreP said:
To get secrets they would not be able to use because Tindomiel will have right of refusal for indefinitely long time?

The right of first refusal doesn't prevent their usage, it does the opposite. It's specifically made so that it wouldn't bottleneck the project. If they can't build it within the constraints that Kislev wants them to, then that counts as Tindomiel refusing.

LadyLynn · Apr 30, 2022

Where in the world are people getting this idea that House Tindomiel is just gonna sit on their butts and barely contribute anything for the majority of the Project? This is the fearmongering over Hedgewise recruitment last turn all over again.

It's even sillier this time, too. They're offering the time of important people, including potentially the head of the House, and the only way they'll get a payoff is by ensuring the Project succeeds to a degree that we previously thought a pipe dream, meaning they will be highly invested in trying to ensure the Project is as successful as possible.

Judging from the terms, I'd say that House Tindomiel would probably be one of the most dedicated contributors when it comes to trying to make the Project succeed.

Swantree · Apr 30, 2022

Now I think Mathilde is too powerful to be able to even make those kinds of offer and the other side believing that she has the authority to back it up.

Also, iirc when we were dealing with the Light college ending up with a surplus in terms of favor that would earn us a lot of goodwill. Would doing the same for Tindomiel be worth it? I don't know what that would give us, not like Mathilde has much use for them outside of the project I think.

Also has anyone done a post on the numbers here? Link?

Manpower of House Tindomiel: Time taken to construct a (wall? statue?) of comparative size with similar tech: to pattern densities of (commstowers?) to whatever geology the empire is based on. I know the politics is Roman, but the language is Germanic.

Finally, what's the attached cost here? The deal is straightforward, but what does displeasing the land affected entail? It seems like it's really bad, but I can't think of something concrete, will someone high-up be pissed or will someone extort Mathilde for a lump sum? Hell, would it even displease them?

All in all I'm confused at combining both arguments, on the one hand they're masterwork craftsmen that works disproportionally from a utilitarian standpoint, on the other hand it's painted as a concession. This is working on the idea that we take either the no blatant Hekarti symbols or blatant but exclusively local, which looks highly likely to win.

HanChenYou · Apr 30, 2022

[x] [HOUSE] Yes
[x] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
- [x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
- [x] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
- [x] [FORM] Dedication (0)
[x] Plan Subtlety is for losers, but only at home
- [x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
- [x] [REP] Head (-3)
- [x] [FORM] Shrines (+1)

[x] Plan All in, but discreet

reignonyrparade · Apr 30, 2022

[x] [HOUSE] Yes
[X] Plan: Just the Heir

TreP · Apr 30, 2022

ReImagined said:
The right of first refusal doesn't prevent their usage, it does the opposite. It's specifically made so that it wouldn't bottleneck the project. If they can't build it within the constraints that Kislev wants them to, then that counts as Tindomiel refusing.

I'm a bit confused. Let's say Kislev wants Waystone built by Ice Witches and dedicated to the Widow. Both of these breach our agreement with Tindomiel. What will happen?
My concern is that there is no way out of this situation, without antagonizing one of two groups. Either Elves, by working with Witches, or Kislev, by sticking to agreement with Tindomiel.

LadyLynn said:
Where in the world are people getting this idea that House Tindomiel is just gonna sit on their butts and barely contribute anything for the majority of the Project? This is the fearmongering over Hedgewise recruitment last turn all over again.

There is a difference. For Hedgewise, we would only lost AP and waste (although not completely) a coin for this turn. All is Mathilde's personal resources. For Tindomiel, to get any meaningful contribution we need to promise something that affects many other inhabitants of the Old World.

jjffjhjf · Apr 30, 2022

Woltaire said:
I bet it will be a Transcendent Deed

I don't really think the Empire has an equivalent of Transcendent level deeds or the like. Mainly because I don't think the Empire is willing to go that far for things.

HanChenYou · Apr 30, 2022

LadyLynn said:
Where in the world are people getting this idea that House Tindomiel is just gonna sit on their butts and barely contribute anything for the majority of the Project? This is the fearmongering over Hedgewise recruitment last turn all over again.

It's even sillier this time, too. They're offering the time of important people, including potentially the head of the House, and the only way they'll get a payoff is by ensuring the Project succeeds to a degree that we previously thought a pipe dream, meaning they will be highly invested in trying to ensure the Project is as successful as possible.

Judging from the terms, I'd say that House Tindomiel would probably be one of the most dedicated contributors when it comes to trying to make the Project succeed.

I 100% agree, and think we should honestly be willing to go through a lot of suboptimality in other areas to get their major support here.

The Grey Lords are highly unlikely to go outside Laurelorn to work on anything let alone to build waystones.

These are our only enchanters who are willing to go out and actually make waystones.
None of the others in the project could even plausibly pretend to fulfill the role that was filled by the elves of Ulthuan.

Also, we are 100% not making the decision for Kislev and Brettonia. Instead, we are simply deciding what strings are attached to them getting new waystones. If they want our product, they must accept a contract for right of first refusal that we have negotiated. If they don't, then there is not an issue.

If you buy internet service and sign a 2-year contract as part of it, it is not evil, it is just one of the strings they attach to cover the cost of starting up service.

Woltaire · Apr 30, 2022

jjffjhjf said:
I don't really think the Empire has an equivalent of Transcendent level deeds or the like. Mainly because I don't think the Empire is willing to go that far for things.

if anything would qualify for it it be this and I bet they be willing to far on something like making new waystone

TreP · Apr 30, 2022

HanChenYou said:
If you buy internet service and sign a 2-year contract as part of it, it is not evil, it is just one of the strings they attach to cover the cost of starting up service.

Internet service is not a vital for your survival. Restoring Waystone network is.
And this

HanChenYou said:
If they want our product, they must accept a contract for right of first refusal that we have negotiated.

Just means "Accept our terms or deal with Chaos without Waystones". That's straight up evil.

HanChenYou · Apr 30, 2022

TreP said:
I'm a bit confused. Let's say Kislev wants Waystone built by Ice Witches and dedicated to the Widow. Both of these breach our agreement with Tindomiel. What will happen?
My concern is that there is no way out of this situation, without antagonizing one of two groups. Either Elves, by working with Witches, or Kislev, by sticking to agreement with Tindomiel.

Since the Ice witches are in on the project, if they can glean and gather what they need to create a waystone by themselves, then I am sure there will be no problem.

A right of first refusal obtained from Mathilde as the facilitator of this project should only be understood as applying to anything Mathilde has direct control over. Any waystones built by the project itself, or contracted out by the project would be covered.

Any waystones built by Kislev and the ice witches who have learned much from the project but are not acting in their capacity as members of the project would be in no way construed as being under Mathilde's control.

kfrar · Apr 30, 2022

[X] Plan If We Win We've Already Won: Politics/Prototyping
-[X] [SCOPE] Empire, Bretonnia, and Kislev (+3)
-[X] [REP] Enchanter (-2)
-[X] [REP] Heir (-1)
-[X] [FORM] Dedication (0)

[X] Plan If We Win We've Already Won: Influence/Investigation
-[X] [SCOPE] Empire, Bretonnia, and Kislev (+3)
-[X] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
-[X] [REP] Heir (-1)
-[X] [FORM] Dedication (0)

On second thought, I prefer something like this.

Again, Tindomiel is offering all of their services up front in return for a check that we only need to cash if we win the lottery.

I understand being wary about going full Shrines to Hekarti for the Entire Old World. For example, building outright temples to an Elven goddess in Dwarflands is brazen enough that we might not even be able to manage it, and it may cause problems long into the future.
But building politically inconvenient not-actually-places-of-worship in Kislev? It's not ideal, but if we can give Kislev Waystones, dealing with a few gang tags is the least of the monumental list of concessions we'd be able to wrangle from them, and the outlooks for the Empire and Brettonia aren't much less rosy.

If we can build new Waystones, we've already won. We can name our price, and Tindomiel's anemic demands will be more than covered by the goodwill from our accomplishment. And Tindomiel will be the ones on the hook to for production, even! This is not what we call a bad deal.

We're being offered a 100% chance of skilled labor now in return for a 90% chance of paying literally nothing and a 10% chance of paying some future political inconvenience while also winning the political lottery, and we should be riding that for all it's worth.

So what is it worth? We talked to Tindomiel because we wished for more political influence behind the project, so getting the heir on board is an easy win. And Tindomiel specializes in magic, so picking up one of their experts while we're at it is just good sense.

As for which expert to pick, I can go either way. The theorist is the obvious choice, of course - but we've already been investing in the theoretical side of things heavily, and I expect the Grey Lord to have a fair bit of expertise there. Would another theorist be somewhat redundant? Waystones are physical objects after all, and while Mathilde and Egrimm are a potent pair of enchanters, having a wind-agnostic enchanter on deck may be useful when it comes to performing actual physical tests for any theories we develop. But there is clearly some magical value to be had, so I think we should have it.

Thus, the above plans, which acknowledge that in the very unlikely event that we win beyond our wildest dreams we will need to cope with a few awkward conversations and slightly more reluctant headpats, and in return receives political influence and magical expertise both.

Jyn Ryvia · Apr 30, 2022

Woltaire said:
if anything would qualify for it it be this and I bet they be willing to far on something like making new waystone

If most of the empire understand how important the waystone are? then yes.

But most of the empire doesn't really get magic stuff, so I dought it.

A 'transcendent deed' needs to be something that's understandable by everyone involved.

e.g: duelling and defeating an everchosen in front of the gates of kislev, figuring out how to make more steamtanks, lifitng a city out of danger, creating a magical highway that everyone can use (some sort of 'weber-way'), kicking Nagah in his rotting balls etc etc.

Wiadi · Apr 30, 2022

TreP said:
Just means "Accept our terms or deal with Chaos without Waystones". That's straight up evil.

While it would obviously be ideal for the world as a whole if everyone in it selflessly and unconditionally acted for the greater good in all ways, I hardly think "evil" is a fair characterization of still acting to benefit the world but just attaching some strings to it.

HanChenYou · Apr 30, 2022

TreP said:
Just means "Accept our terms or deal with Chaos without Waystones". That's straight up evil.

I disagree, because it makes it significantly more likely for us to get Waystones in the first place.

Some waystones is way better than no waystones, even if they are not equitably distributed.

Also, a repeat or copycat of our experiment, if we succeed, becomes tremendously easier.

Furthermore:
The contract Tindomiel is asking for with us actually very typical for a guild-dominated time period. A guild promises to supply a group or government with what they need, and the government or group promises to only purchase it from them.

If anything, they are being extraordinarily generous by settling for right of first refusal. (And this, again, only if we've already "won the lottery")

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