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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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[X] [HOUSE] No
[X] [HEDGEWISE] Secretly

that The House is trying to monopolize onto Waystones construction in opening negotiations does not bode well. And we should protect the Hedgewise as carefully as Ranald does his children. They can trust us, our trust of others is not... high.
 
So regardless of wheter I end up voting yes or no, here's my opinion on the various options:

[ ] [SCOPE] Laurelorn (0)
While this seems like the least fraught option politically, I actually see this as a snub towards Marrisith and the Council of Tor Lithanel. We don't have the right to give Tindomiel exclusive construction rights in a realm that we have no authority over.

[ ] [SCOPE] Northern Provinces (+1)
This seems already like a better option than the one above and it comes with a +1. On the other hand it includes Nordland, which will be a tougher nut to crack diplomatically than probably most other Provinces. So if we take this option there's not much difference than taking the one right below, which both gives an additional +1 and allows us to potentially negotiate just with the Emperor for permission instead of negotiating with a bunch of ECs separately.

[ ] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
I think this one is my favorite for now, for the reasons mentioned above.
@Boney The second and third SCOPE options don't mention Laurelorn and Laurelorn isn't technically part of the Empire (or the northern Provinces), especially according to Laurelorn law. Does that mean that if we take these options we can still claim that Laurelorn itself is not covered by the deal and thus not alienate any potential rivals of Tindomiel as much, due to not having usurped the authority of the Council and Queen?

[ ] [SCOPE] Empire, Bretonnia, and Kislev (+3)
Mathilde has no standing to decide this for foreign nations. If they happen to not like Hekarti I do not want to tell them to go suck it.

[ ] [SCOPE] The Old World (+4)
See above, except even more so and with Dwarves included. Just no.

[ ] [REP] Head (-3)
I don't like how into Hekarti he is. I definitely don't want someone who is likely to included a backdoor for her without our knowledge.

[ ] [REP] Enchanter (-2)
We don't know what Lord Hatalath's speciality is, so this might be worth it.
[ ] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
I'm a sucker for theory and Tindomiel might have some juicy bits we won't get from any other current participants.

[ ] [REP] Priest (-1)
Isthien's negotiation priorities have turned me off from involving Hekarti's religious side too much.

[ ] [REP] Heir (-1)
This could be anything. He could be useless and/or tightly controlled by his Head of House, or he could be flexible, radical and underestimated by his own people due to a massive Elven youth bias. If we end up with just +1 favor then this is who I would go for over the priest/ess.

[ ] [FORM] Shrines (+1)
I don't like it much, but metaphysicall speaking I don't expect it to make too much of a difference when it comes to directly channeling magic energy to Hekarti. If we need the +1 I'm tentatively okay with it, angry mobs notwithstanding.

[ ] [FORM] Dedication (0)
I'm worried about the metaphysical implications of this. Angry mobs should be less of a problem though.

[ ] [FORM] Discreet (-1)
I might vote for this out of pure curiosity of finding out who the Empire's god(dess) of magic turns out to be. Getting them worshipped as such in the Colleges might be of tangible value.

[ ] [FORM] Secular (-2)
The fact that they would still take this deal makes me more worried than not. My read is that they could still to some extend get what they want out of this, which I am sure would be more than just prestige and political clout. Given that we can only take this option if we choose a -1 representative and allow them three large nations worth of territory it might mean that a sufficient mass of Tindomiel Waystones still get a decent amount of power flowing to Hekarti even without any tangible dedication outside of whatever opaque "programming" they have in mind.
 
Rafin said:
@Boney The second and third SCOPE options don't mention Laurelorn and Laurelorn isn't technically part of the Empire (or the northern Provinces), especially according to Laurelorn law. Does that mean that if we take these options we can still claim that Laurelorn itself is not covered by the deal and thus not alienate any potential rivals of Tindomiel as much, due to not having usurped the authority of the Council and Queen?
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No.
 
K von Carstein said:
You do not care about all those things, others very much do. Personally i don't particularly care about the House ´s influence, but I don't fancy a Cytharai goddess getting a big power boost. That wouldn't be intangible, and the fact is that we have no idea if it will boost her and how much if it does is not something I'm willing to risk.
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Ok, thats not something I can argue against. I would take that as acceptable risk, but I would take that as acceptable outcome if it was guaranteed. I would invite the mortuary cult or maybe even nagash to build some temples if they came with fully functional waystones attached.

TreP said:
Imagine, you are a dwarf. Some kind of important one. You are aware of the Project, and you know that dwarfs participating too. Then, after some time, you hear that project was successful. You celebrate. And then you get news, that you can't order your dwarfly-built shiny new Waystones in your home, because Mathilde promised it to some Elves. Worse, they will depict it with symbols of one of their Goddes and will stuck it right on top of your mountain.

I'm oversimplifying this of course, but the point is that Elves demand something we have no right to give them. Not without major consequences.
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Well, considering the dwarves I like to imagine the elves to know better. If you think they as a single house of Laurelorn would piss of the whole Karaz Ankor for basically prestige then you can vote for basically any option that doesnt say the old world, which is the only one including the dwarves.
 
[X] [HOUSE] No
[X] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly

I would like to point out that even promising on behalf of Tindomiel preference in Laurelorn would be effectively a big political statement to the elves. I doubt the Grey Lords will overly care, but the Ward of Frost might, not to mention over Wards or Houses we might want to bring in in the future.

Tindomiel might well have lore to contribute, but we already have sufficient elven assistance that I'm doubtful it will be immediately crucial, and this could limit what elves we can induct in the future without extreme effort. I believe it would be better to hold off and accept what we have now, for hopefully more for less in the future.
 
K von Carstein said:
You do not care about all those things, others very much do. Personally i don't particularly care about the House ´s influence, but I don't fancy a Cytharai goddess getting a big power boost. That wouldn't be intangible, and the fact is that we have no idea if it will boost her and how much if it does is not something I'm willing to risk.
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If the issue is the fear that Hekarti could get some big power boost out of having her sigils stamped on some Waystones, which for the record I feel is a notion that requires more info on the nature of the Divine than than we have to conclusively speak on

I mean the Gods literally live in the Aethyr, how did Boney put the idea of sacrificing magic energy to them again? Oh yeah, water to a fish
Boney said:
Vitae is the substance of the realm of the Gods. Sacrificing it to Ranald is like sacrificing water to a fish.
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But anyway, if the fear is that Hekarti might somehow get some big powerboost out of even so much as having her runes stamped on the Waystones, then there does exist these two options right here
Boney said:
[ ] [FORM] Discreet (-1)
Tindomiel-built Waystones will have dedication to an accepted and legal God of the Old World Pantheon.
[ ] [FORM] Secular (-2)
Tindomiel-built Waystones will have no dedication to Hekarti whatsoever.
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Rafin said:
The fact that they would still take this deal makes me more worried than not. My read is that they could still to some extend get what they want out of this, which I am sure would be more than just prestige and political clout. Given that we can only take this option if we choose a -1 representative and allow them three large nations worth of territory it might mean that a sufficient mass of Tindomiel Waystones still get a decent amount of power flowing to Hekarti even without any tangible dedication outside of whatever opaque "programming" they have in mind.
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For me this falls somewhere between to paranoid and argueing from the conclusion backwards making the data fit. The to me far more plausible conclusion is that they something, that something here being prestige and from that standing.
The question to me is rather why do they want rep to their goddess as well. Could be they are just far more into the cult then most elves, could be it is some evil megalomaniacal scheme for their goddess to absorb all the waystone power. From what I took from Boneys commentsabout the importance of different gods to different elven communities, their respective standing and the respective importance of the houses following those gods there seems to me that there is a connection between how important a god is and how important the house that follows that god is. If the project pays off, how important would the then patron god of newly built waystones be? My guess is thats their angle, but I could be interpreting the elven culture completely wrong.
 
Though it pains me...

[X] [HOUSE] No

[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
-[x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
-[x] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
-[x] [FORM] Dedication (0)

[x] Plan Middle Ground
-[x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
-[x] [REP] Heir (-1)
-[x] [FORM] Discreet (-1)

[X] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly

Even if giving them just Laurelorn is okay with most Elven Houses and Wards, I expect that at least the Hoethians will be miffed. And snubbing them completely means that we will only ever have buy-in from a single Elven deity/cult.

Or, I guess there's still Vaul. But I also guess that they too won't be happy about crafting things that will never be dedicated to their god, who is literally about crafting things.

If "[House] Yes" wins anyway then we might as well promise them the whole Empire (as "representative" thereof). And the magical theorist is my favorite. I am also willing to gamble on the heir in exchange for learning Hekarti's Human "guise". Especially since the Elves might be wrong and said Human "guise" might actually get a cut of the power independently of Elven Hekarti.

Aksel as a religious representative seems like the best compromise between prestige and caution and my good faith choice. Secretly would be best for the Grey College and Mathilde personally, but for some reason I feel like taking the (to me) more moral option this time. Maybe I change my mind later.
 
Wow. The thread really doesn't like elves, huh. Or perhaps better to say that it is so primed to see arrogance to be pushed back on that it lashes out at least provocation.

The elves basically offered to do most of the heavy lifting in terms of construction in exchange for just putting a maker's mark on it and a large minority of the thread is "how dare you!?!"

Sheesh.

And yes, they are playing an angle: they are in favor of contact with the empire so they want to make Laurelorn indispensable to their neighbors. They can't offer trade so "we build you magical defenses against chaos" is a good offer to the provinces around them.

So my vote is to give it to them. Just the northern provinces, but shrines so it's obviously elfy and explicitly protecting everyone around it.

Think of it as an experiment in shifting a goddess by changing what she recieves worship for, if you want. Maybe she'll eventually cast out a fragment like Manathan did to stromfells.

And that buys us the theory and the political cover with the heir, which is optimal, I think...
Derpmind said:
Why should House Tindomiel be given such political leverage over the entirety of The Empire, when Waystones are so essential to its very existence?
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Because it gives the empire a reason to keep them alive that they've been otherwise struggling to find.

Boney said:
Presumably being that involved in that many Waystones going up over that wide an area would still give them a lot of influence, even if they aren't allowed to brand them.
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That's what they are aiming for: making friends and appearing helpful, because they want allies. This isn't sinister.

Tasoli said:
You know we do have an Great Deed. Perhaps we should think about creating a Knightly Order dedicated to Halêtha and charged to protect Forest of Shadows (waystones) and headquarted in the Brass Keep (when reclaimed). It would give them military arm that is polically protected by the Emperor so bastard sigmarites can't pull another asshole move later on.
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I love this and will 100% back you on it. Can we schedule it for after elfcation?

Codex said:
AN: Is this my best work? Perhaps not. I was going for something different, and let the writing take me where it may. I tried to be more organic in my Adventure Hooks as I experiment with something different, integrating quests into the narrative instead of phrasing it like a book inspiring the GM. I'm also not sure about the twist at the end. Timelines might not mesh, but maybe that doesn't matter. I had fun anyway.
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I liked it! The way it was a scene instead of a list really appealed to me.

picklepikkl said:
I don't believe this means "if we can't fill the entire order you have simultaneously, only part of it, you can go elsewhere". If it does (i.e. if it means that we can have Tindomiel working on as many Waystones as they can do at a time and other people working on others), I would be more sanguine about it.
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Please be more generous here- the elves are trying to make allies not piss off thier neighbors.
 
CrimsonOddball said:
If the issue is the fear that Hekarti could get some big power boost out of having her sigils stamped on some Waystones, which for the record I feel is a notion that requires more info on the nature of the Divine than than we have to conclusively speak on

I mean the Gods literally live in the Aethyr, how did Boney put the idea of sacrificing magic energy to them again? Oh yeah, water to a fish


But anyway, if the fear is that Hekarti might somehow get some big powerboost out of even so much as having her runes stamped on the Waystones, then there does exist these two options right here
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That's a fair argument. But not one I can evaluate now without ending up late for work. I might change my vote later. Or not.
 
[X] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
[X] Plan: Just the Heir
[X][HOUSE] Yes
[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?

I'm not risking an anti Hedgewise crackdown.

And I'm willing to sign the House into places we reasonably can decide such things for without mayor drama.

Remember that if some polity doesn't want the house to build the wind part, but the house wants to build it, then we are deadlocked and cant build in that region at all. I'd much rather just stick to areas that we know will be somewhat okay with it (Laurelorn is covered by the House suggesting this to begin with because they wouldn't start a fight with their neighbors, and the empire just wants Waystones and will be delighted to not have to tie down their handful of enchanters.)

picklepikkl said:
Unless I am missing something huge here, I think I have to vote No on House Tindomiel, because of one issue: pacing. We know how slowly the Elder Races take things that they think are important. Giving them the monopoly on Waystone construction anywhere outside their own territory is just asking for a culture clash writ very large, as we go "please hurry" and they go "we are hurrying."
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I see where you are coming from, but boney has elaborated that they would only be providing the wind expert part, so they will still have to contend with the pace the other builders are setting. Providing experts, not management.

Plus, the windpart I want built to Elven standards. I'd much rather delay the new waystones by a decade than have one in one hundred detonate into Dhar gysiers or whatever.


Jyn Ryvia said:
I'm surprised by the gut anger that the house wants something in return for their Labour: all the house are going to be the same.

Like, they really are the only ones with the raw numbers of magical Labours to do Waystones all over the old world. (Or at least the empire)

If we don't get them on board at least for the forest, we will likely have to slink back to them later for a even worse deal.
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It's not gut anger, it's practicality. It's a millstone around our necks in the actual waystone building part of the project if we ever get there due to diplomatic repercussions.

CrimsonOddball said:
People seem to be regarding Tindomiel's asking price as unreasonable, and that actually comes across as rather odd to me
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Not unreasonable, just still expensive.

K von Carstein said:
No EC would let that slide, because it would set the precedent that a LM can threaten them without consequences. The Colleges would throw us to the wolves.
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They would throw our head to the wolves given that they'd also be duty bound to kill us.

IronFist said:
Could Secretly be interpreted as a successful half step towards joining the colleges?
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If it could, then they wouldn't be offering. Legal pretenses aside, they don't seem to actually want to join.
 
CrimsonOddball said:
If the issue is the fear that Hekarti could get some big power boost out of having her sigils stamped on some Waystones, which for the record I feel is a notion that requires more info on the nature of the Divine than than we have to conclusively speak on
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That's my point exactly. I don't want to Waystones to have anything with Gods, until we know how they interact with each other (if they do at all).
CrimsonOddball said:
But anyway, if the fear is that Hekarti might somehow get some big powerboost out of even so much as having her runes stamped on the Waystones, then there does exist these two options right here
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The problem is, we can't pick Secular, reasonable amount of territory and get at least Theorist at the same time. We either allow open worship, allow more territory or settle with an Heir. And if we choose Heir, it's easier to pick Laurelorn + Shrine.
 
[X] [HOUSE] Yes

[X] Plan: Local Security
-[x] [SCOPE] Northern Provinces (+1)
-[x] [FORM] Shrines (+1)
-[x] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)

[X] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly

In sum, I'm confident that a house with long access to the Tower of Mourning and a specialion in how winds interact with eachother has more to offer than even the all the colleges put together.

I want to give the local empire a reason to stay peaceful, but I don't want to extend that set of politics further.

And I want the hedgewise to have a plausible path to both legitimacy and getting back into the shadows after this. It's not our call on that.

[X] Plan Subtlety is for losers, but only at home
[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
 
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Thomasfoolery said:
I think the issue is (Beyond it giving other cults a reason to take a whack at the Haletha pinata for secrets) is that it gives him a thread to tug, and we don't know how much background information he has to tug with. Worst case scenario for example could be Nordland has known for ages that Halethan hedgewise are around, but never had any reason to bother with them since they kept to themselves.

Is it worth the risk of opening this possible vector of exposure to parties that have a very vested interest against them, in exchange for quite possibly no payoff for them? And is it our place to decide to have them run that risk when we really know very little about their desired endgame, and whether any payoff, even if it does come out. Might not even be something they're interested in? Especially since if we are successful they could either be revealed in the future, or given rewards that don't require publicity depending on what they're interested in and how the landscape looks at that point.
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You seem to be arguing that this will automatically increase the pressure on the Hedgewise. It could do, but it would first require investigating. Yes, the priest of a minor goddess being brought in to a project like this would be odd and might get people looking for why, but I would suspect that priests of Ranald's daughter would have no real problem with this use of them as a cover (after all, Mathilde can be trusted), so if asked will probably just reply "cult secrets". I doubt that the other cults would welcome an Elector Count prying into the secrets of any legal cult, as who knows when that would be them being looked into? There is risk, certainly, but there is also risk in pretending to be Grey as the other wizards might be able to tell he isn't using Ulgu, which could be trouble for the Grey College if anybody wants to tug on that thread. To me, if you are worried about exposing the Hedgewise, not bringing them in full stop is the best choice.
 
LancyIain said:
There is risk, certainly, but there is also risk in pretending to be Grey as the other wizards might be able to tell he isn't using Ulgu, which could be trouble for the Grey College if anybody wants to tug on that thread. To me, if you are worried about exposing the Hedgewise, not bringing them in full stop is the best choice.
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He is a perpetual. He isn't casting Ulgu because he's crap at using Ulgu, and if you really want you can have him cast some cantrips which I believe most casters - including those that aren't College trained wizards - can use.

Having Aksel pose as a Grey Wizard is the best way to protect the Hedgewise. I wouldn't say it's zero risk, but it's not nearly as risky as working with them openly, and it's probably safer than working with him as a Haléthan, and I don't think it's resonable to say "well if you're worried about the riskiest option you shouldn't take any risk at all and just give up".
 
LancyIain said:
You seem to be arguing that this will automatically increase the pressure on the Hedgewise. It could do, but it would first require investigating. Yes, the priest of a minor goddess being brought in to a project like this would be odd and might get people looking for why, but I would suspect that priests of Ranald's daughter would have no real problem with this use of them as a cover (after all, Mathilde can be trusted), so if asked will probably just reply "cult secrets". I doubt that the other cults would welcome an Elector Count prying into the secrets of any legal cult, as who knows when that would be them being looked into? There is risk, certainly, but there is also risk in pretending to be Grey as the other wizards might be able to tell he isn't using Ulgu, which could be trouble for the Grey College if anybody wants to tug on that thread. To me, if you are worried about exposing the Hedgewise, not bringing them in full stop is the best choice.
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In the very post you quote I pretty clearly do not argue that. I say it will increase their potential exposure, which I feel is pretty clearcut that it will.

The argument that Discreet and Secret are equally at risk of exposure though is not one I agree with at all. There is much less notice in regards to a grey perpetual, when it is the Grey College heading things up, and whose access to other participants could be controlled if necessary, as opposed to a full fledged separate political entity joining up.
 
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K von Carstein said:
Yeah, it hates elves do much it choose to do the Project in Laurelorn :V
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I'll note you dodged the actual argument:

Glau said:
The elves basically offered to do most of the heavy lifting in terms of construction in exchange for just putting a maker's mark on it and a large minority of the thread is "how dare you!?!"
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It's assuming the worst of thier intentions while also assuming the least of what they have to offer.
 
[X] [HOUSE] Yes

[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
-[x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
-[x] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
-[x] [FORM] Dedication (0)

[X] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
 
[x] [HEDGEWISE] Secretly
[x] [HOUSE] Yes

[X] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
-[X] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
-[X] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
-[X] [FORM] Dedication (0)

[X] Plan Discretion Is The Watchword
-[X] [SCOPE] Empire, Bretonnia, and Kislev (+3)
-[X] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
-[X] [FORM] Discreet (-1)

[x] Plan All in, but discreet
- [x] [SCOPE] The Old World (+4)
- [x] [REP] Head (-3)
- [x] [FORM] Discreet (-1)
 
K von Carstein said:
Personally i don't particularly care about the House ´s influence, but I don't fancy a Cytharai goddess getting a big power boost.
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Rafin said:
Mathilde has no standing to decide this for foreign nations. If they happen to not like Hekarti I do not want to tell them to go suck it.
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If the concern is mostly about Tindomiel setting up Hekarti worship everywhere, then why not go all in on being secular?
[] Plan No Altars, No Problem
- [] [SCOPE] The Old World (+4)
- [] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
- [] [FORM] Secular (-2)
 
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Tempted to go the discreet route as having them go the priest route to be potentially accepted into the empire like the damsels or ice witches but doing so when Nordland's loosing half of their territory and the Nordlander's on that side presumed dead is making me hesitate to have the group publicly acknowledged as priests of Haletha considering they can be pressured by the Nordlander EC.

Going for secretive as if we ever claw back the waystone nexus at the brass keep of the forest it's self, perhaps we can set up some foggy middle ground between the grey college and the hedgewise of Nordland on the thing considering one of the excuses for the colleges lack of oversight of the hedgewise is their stretched in manpower, best case scenerio they become a sort of web - mat of the grey college or something while they try to pry themselves as official priestly organization of Halthea when Nordland wound is so fresh.

[X] [HEDGEWISE] Secretly

Also going for getting more out of the elves to build waystones across the empire if we ever succeed. The colleges are stretched for wizards so getting em to work in the empire would be cool, really weird take but I don't really consider the elves a threat to the empire as first of all the empire shouldn't be trying to conquer a non - chaos polity is my take considering all the chaos territory in the empire they should be reclaiming back and that over 75% of the empire is literately forest hell full of gribblies, That and the eonir I believe don't have a sustainable birth rate to survive a catastrophic war with the empire even if it is a phyrithic win as they gotta deal with all the gribbles in the forest.

[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
[X] Plan Subtlety is for losers, but only at home
 
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