[x] Plan Steal His Credit, Take His Wizards
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
You only get disrupted when a unit with 2 or more ranks charges you in the flank or rear. And you remain disrupted until that unit either ceases to have 2 ranks or you succeed in reforming to face them. Also, because the Strength in Numbers bonus is tied to rank bonus, it caps at a max of +3, which means that Skaven outside of the General's Inspiring Presence bubble tend to have pretty crap Leadership anyway. Also, it's worth remembering that rank bonus is for every rank after the first. So a unit of 15 Stormvermin 5 wide only get a +2 bonus, not a +3.
Strength in Numbers helps mitigate the Skaven's crap leadership, but it certainly doesn't stop it being a problem.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
I think it's more like finding an alien power source that needs electricity (magic, maybe rituals and/or enchanting) to be put online, but whose fundamental mechanism that creates the effects (taking the Winds and Dhar to break it into something different and send it to the Vortex/Throne of Power) are based on a completely different paradigm than electricity (regular magic like the College and most elves practice). We don't need a regular electrician (that ritualist guy), we need the person with the obscure knowledge of physics (the LM cleared for almost everything the Light Order knows) that could know a piece of the puzzle. We can always hire an electrician (ritualist) later, but the elves probably have much better ones, and for all Winds.
Last edited:
- Location
- Internet
[X] Plan Measured Support
- Location
- South Africa
I think that ritual will probably offer alot of value in the long term. However, due to who we are i.e. not elves or dwarfs, right now we need short term value - which is what Elrisse brings. If we brought in the light college later after having established initial research then Steven would be more useful.
Personally I hope that later, when we have some measure of initial results, we will be able to a second round of recruitment - this time being very targeted. In this round we would certainly look at Steven, or someone similar.
To provide a balanced argument, while the elves probably have better ritualists if we manage to create a wholesale solution, if we only manage to create a patch job solution, then a human wizard who is happy to mutilate him/herself might well be better at implementing the patch job.
Last edited:
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
True, but if just after beginning to figure out how waystones work we urgently need ritualists for whatever reason, there will be elves ready for the task. But I agree that chisel-hands could be better for certain things, we just don't know what. And the ideal end goal would be for humans to be able to do it by themselves.
- Location
- South Africa
After the above discussion and looking through the available plans (as well as remembering that Boney said we would vote on the nature of the sabotage) I am happy to vote for
[x] Plan Steal His Credit, Take His Wizards
[x] Plan Steal His Credit, Take His Wizards
- Location
- Earth
If I did not think Egrimm trustworthy I would not have wanted him on the project. But Mat is already doing something for him, in supporting Mira and giving Egrimm a chance to shine on the Project and as Part of WEBMAT. I do not want to get into a political shit-fight with Alric and Mira.
That said, investigating other Wizards is pretty much the modus operandy of the Greys, and looking into another Lord Magister is certainly a job for a Lady Magister. So we investigate, hell we were almost doing that anyway, now we have official backing for it from the current Matriarch of the Light Order. So now we can take a direct look at Alric.
So here's to a reasonable plan. Because here's the thing: We Don't Know Shit About What's Going On Inside The Light Order.
We've never looked into it ourselves or talked to the rest of the Grey's, the people we actually trust on this issue about it.
So I am not going to let some Light hussy and an ancient Patriarch play games with the youngest Grey Lady Magister. Minimum engagement, inside well thread lines. Don't overplay your fucking hand at internal politics, that's how they fuck us up.
[X] Plan Safe and Sane - Young Lady Magister Edition
-[X] Investigate Alric (2 Favours)
-[X] Lady Magister Elrisse (2 Favours)
As for not giving Egrimm access to internal secrets, secrets stay secrets by not spreading them around. There is literally no reason for a paranoid Grey to tell him if we take someone else in who does know them. He can learn them with his promotion after the project success. I'm not going to bend over backwards for Egrimm on account of liking him. Sharing secrets on that basis is a terrible policy.
As for Elrisse, they have a Waystone Right There. Get the Woman with the most access. We'll hire a choir if we need one at the end. Not to mention what having another woman who is beyond reproach in terms of loyalty to the Empire will do to recruitment of other Empire aligned Wizards.
That said, investigating other Wizards is pretty much the modus operandy of the Greys, and looking into another Lord Magister is certainly a job for a Lady Magister. So we investigate, hell we were almost doing that anyway, now we have official backing for it from the current Matriarch of the Light Order. So now we can take a direct look at Alric.
So here's to a reasonable plan. Because here's the thing: We Don't Know Shit About What's Going On Inside The Light Order.
We've never looked into it ourselves or talked to the rest of the Grey's, the people we actually trust on this issue about it.
So I am not going to let some Light hussy and an ancient Patriarch play games with the youngest Grey Lady Magister. Minimum engagement, inside well thread lines. Don't overplay your fucking hand at internal politics, that's how they fuck us up.
[X] Plan Safe and Sane - Young Lady Magister Edition
-[X] Investigate Alric (2 Favours)
-[X] Lady Magister Elrisse (2 Favours)
As for not giving Egrimm access to internal secrets, secrets stay secrets by not spreading them around. There is literally no reason for a paranoid Grey to tell him if we take someone else in who does know them. He can learn them with his promotion after the project success. I'm not going to bend over backwards for Egrimm on account of liking him. Sharing secrets on that basis is a terrible policy.
As for Elrisse, they have a Waystone Right There. Get the Woman with the most access. We'll hire a choir if we need one at the end. Not to mention what having another woman who is beyond reproach in terms of loyalty to the Empire will do to recruitment of other Empire aligned Wizards.
Last edited:
What are you anticipating as the actual negative consequences of the 'political shit fight'?
Night_stalker
Slava Ukraini!
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Plan Measured Support
Sinsystems
Patron Librarian
[X] Plan Measured Support
consequences
Not A Nice Person At All
- Location
- Jerkville
[X] Plan Measured Support
We can always choose to spike Alric's wheels when we have more information.
We can always choose to spike Alric's wheels when we have more information.
Burned_Cookie
Very tired girl.
- Location
- Plato´s cave.
- Pronouns
- She/Her/It/Its
Why not the introduction option? That one only has upsides.
Hell, I'd be totally willing to do it for free, but don't tell her that.
- Location
- Earth
I don't know. That's the problem.
I can't anticipate them because Mat has not spend any part of her Carrier so far on internal Empire politics. Inter Stirland stuff, yes. Stuff between provinces or Colledges has been either picked up along the way, played in established routes like favor trading where someone else is doing the actual work, or not really participated in.
The Politics of the Empire are a massive, deep Ocean and Mat is a dilettante at them. She's excellent at Stirland and Dwarves, good at leading inter-colledge forces beneath her, but actual political struggles with equals aren't so good. Remember that it took someone above us in the Grey Order to point out the Magister that was supposedly under us, was hiding he was a Magister from Mat.
Mat does not have experience with dealing with this kind of stuff, and I don't want to jump into it head first. Not without looking first. And we decided to approach the Light Order as a starting action, not investigate and gather intel on them First, so we're kind of blind here.
I'm not comfortable with out level of understanding of the situation. I wasn't comfortable with the Runelords alliance, but at least there Mat was litterally one of the best experts in the Empire to make that decision. The rank of this decision is similar, and our understanding of it and the consequences isn't.
Like, say we introduce Mira and the Light Order to the Order of the Guardians: What does that mean? What can they do with it? Why do they want it? What are the risks and advantages? Why do they need an introduction, when the Light Order has exsissted for centuries with the Dwarves around? Why have they failed to earn the regard of the Order of the Guardians in all that time, that they need Mat's stamp of approval for it? Are there any unresolved Grudges about any Light Wizards? And so on.
And that's just one option.
I don't know. And I know I don't know. So I'm not comfortable diving into the deep end. Investigating a Wizard, even a Lord Magister, particularly done at the request of his own current Matriarch is clean. The rest are murky. I understand that one and I'm ok with doing it. I don't see a way of it blowing up on us in a bad way, if we don't fuck it up. So I'm ok with it. Not so much with the rest.
Because it's only 1 point. I'd need to add Permanent access to KAU and I'm not comfortable with deals like that this early in the effort.
Last edited:
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
They were also fighting in a network of tunnels without clear front lines. Rushed food breaks after individual skirmishes might actually be something even a skilled commander would direct disciplined Skaven forces to do.
You really think that Stephen's skill in rituals is just due to his abilities in rote learning, endurance and choir herding? That "foremost ritualist in the Light Order" doesn't include things like ritual creation and novel ritual recognition? That everything he knows about his fields of specialty can be understood by any other LM with access to the books?
Were there ever times where you were momentarily stumped with disbelief by the decision of the voters, even if coming up with ideas and writing them was not the issue?
That's a good point.
I think that people that favor Elrisse aren't even thinking of the exploratory phase, but of the one before that. They want Humans to look as competent and knowledgeable as possible during the part where everyone brings their secrets to the table.
Clearance is not the same as knowledge. That said...
Something I've noticed that I myself have been doing (and others too) is treating Choirmaster Stephen as an expert Wizard with potentially deep insights into his multiple fields of specialty while treating Lady Magister Elrisse like little more than a keyholder to the Light's double plus special secret library section. But presumably she didn't become Lady Magister and Porter (equivalent) without some magical excellence of her own.
@Boney How famous and for what is Elrisse famous for? Does Mathilde know of any noteworthy magical achievements or knowledge contributions by LM Elrisse off the top of her head?
- Location
- Poland
[X] Plan Measured Support
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
@primemountain You actually make good sense. But to be honest, when it comes to introducing the Light Order to the Order of Guardians the potential for serious self-sabotage is small enough that it is overshadowed by the potential of entertainment and shakeup of the status quo both.
As for why the Light Order hasn't managed on their own yet, the Order of Guardians seems even more tight lipped and unapproachable than usual if Gunnars is anything to judge by.
As for why the Light Order hasn't managed on their own yet, the Order of Guardians seems even more tight lipped and unapproachable than usual if Gunnars is anything to judge by.
Not really. By the time a vote is tallied, I've read all the discussion and debate that led to that result.
She's in charge of the internal security of the Light Order. Any time she might have had to do something impressive, it would have been because of a situation that the Light Order would very much like to keep quiet.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Nothing from her time before she was Porter?
At that point she would have been one Magister among hundreds. Mathilde has not memorized the deeds of every Wizard in the Colleges.
- Location
- Denial
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Elrisse isn't going to be any better there than Stephen though, since the vast majority of the additional knowledge she has access to is unrelated to waystones so not particularly relevant immediately. Assuming there is "porter" level waystone information even LM Egrimm wouldn't be given then she wouldn't be able to share it directly so it would only pay off once the project gets going and she can start laundering insights found using it without revealing the info itself.
Last edited:
- Location
- Earth
From the flavor text:
The Light Order, an Imperial anti-Chaos organization, hopes to gain access to institutional knowledge from dwarven witch hunters. The Order of Guardians get whatever favors that the Lights are willing to offer in exchange, and a new ally with a shared cause against the dark forces of the world.
The main risk is someone does something grudgeworthy.
They need an introduction because no dwarven institution will just just give out secrets to anybody who asks, and on top of that you're asking a group of dwarven clerics to trust a bunch of Zhuf-wielders, something that would've been a large ask before Mathilde happened.
Presumably any existing grudges would be part of any negotiations that occur between the two parties.
I think it's important to remember that Mathilde is a strong proponent of increased cooperation between the Karaz Ankor and the Empire, and this potential relation would be another avenue to explore that.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I think that his intuitive leaps regarding his own personal relationship with Hysh are unhelpful to an effort explicitly attempting to de-mystify the Waystones in a way that other people can understand, the same way that any human wizard's intuitive leaps are unhelpful to other wizards who don't have exactly the same relationship.
And even if I'm wrong, even if having a skilled ritualist early on is helpful, and somehow every other person involved lacks ritual knowledge... Elrisse's lore is more likely to contain relevant secrets, and specifically secrets we can't get by, say, hiring a Grey Wizard rituals expert.