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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Codex said:
The point is, getting informants into Middenland and Nordland is not going to be much of a viable option unless the EIC expands trade northwards, and that isn't part of Wilhelmina's plans for the moment because she's focused on the canal. Expanding northwards would get us involved in the Ostermark/Talabecland trade conflict.
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Middenland is relatively accessible by river from Altdorf, so it's not a huge stretch. Would still probably need some sort of incentive to make it worth the diversion though. Something like Mathilde getting the inside line on some promising trade good coming down from Laurelorn for instance would probably do it. Nordland though is a good ways further and through harsher competition on all the potential routes up, so yeah doesn't seem likely to be happening within the foreseeable future.
 
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Thomasfoolery said:
Middenland is relatively accessible by river from Altdorf, so it's not a huge stretch. Would still probably need some sort of incentive to make it worth the diversion though. Something like Mathilde getting the inside line on some promising trade good coming down from Laurelorn for instance would probably do it. Nordland though is a good ways further and through harsher competition on all the potential routes up, so yeah doesn't seem likely to be happening within the foreseeable future.
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It is accessible, but look at how far that route is from most of the EIC's operations. The reason Altdorf only has a small EIC presence despite being arguably the best trade location in the Empire (Nuln is a competitor and it depends on if you count Marienburg as "Empire") is that the EIC has to either go through the River Aver into Nuln then go up a significant distance into Altdorf or move through the Nuln road into Blutdorf and ride the River Reik all the way up to Altdorf. Aver route involves taxation from Nuln and both routes involve taxation from Kemperbad, and the Road route is probably slower than the double taxation route through River.

The EIC isn't involved enough in Northern trade to establish a large enough presence in Altdorf to justify making the long trek from Altdorf to Middenheim (I'm using Middenheim here because accessing Middenland through the Talabec is easy, accessing Middenheim is much harder, you have to go a long route by road). Whatever Middenland informant presence we have would be quite weak.
 
Middenheim itself doesn't have river access, but about 75 miles down the Old Dwarf Road (though it's called the Old Forest Road in that part of the Empire) is Grimminhagen, which is on the Taub, which flows into the Talabec. About half of the towns in Middenland are on rivers that flow into the Talabec or the Reik.

In contrast Nordland's towns are almost all built on rivers, but all of those rivers flow into the Sea of Claws. This is probably a factor in the long-term rivalry between the two, because despite their proximity they have next to no economic connections. There's only one road that links the two and it's usually known as the 'Middenheim-Erengrad road'.

Also, the headwaters of all three of Nordland's major rivers are in lands claimed by Laurelorn. The Schaukel flows from the Tarn of Tears, the Demst from the Schadensumpf, and the Salz from the Silver Hills.
 
BoneyM said:
Middenheim itself doesn't have river access, but about 75 miles down the Old Dwarf Road (though it's called the Old Forest Road in that part of the Empire) is Grimminhagen, which is on the Taub, which flows into the Talabec. About half of the towns in Middenland are on rivers that flow into the Talabec or the Reik.

In contrast Nordland's towns are almost all built on rivers, but all of those rivers flow into the Sea of Claws. This is probably a factor in the long-term rivalry between the two, because despite their proximity they have next to no economic connections. There's only one road that links the two and it's usually known as the 'Middenheim-Erengrad road'.

Also, the headwaters of all three of Nordland's major rivers are in lands claimed by Laurelorn. The Schaukel flows from the Tarn of Tears, the Demst from the Schadensumpf, and the Salz from the Silver Hills.
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I spent so much time looking at general maps, Stirland maps, Talabecland maps, Ostermark maps and Nordland maps I forgot to pay attention to Middenland's river routes. I was too focused on why they had so many forests and swamps. I thought that province was barren plains and cold mountains.

EDIT: Although a good chunk of that territory used to be the Drakwald and not originally Middenland, so makes sense. That place was all forest.
 
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Codex said:
I spent so much time looking at general maps, Stirland maps, Talabecland maps, Ostermark maps and Nordland maps I forgot to pay attention to Middenland's river routes. I was too focused on why they had so many forests and swamps. I thought that province was barren plains and cold mountains.

EDIT: Although a good chunk of that territory used to be the Drakwald and not originally Middenland, so makes sense. That place was all forest.
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Barrener, colder, and more mountainous, certainly. Compared to places like Reikland and Talabecland it probably seems very hostile, but a Kislevite would probably scoff at it.
 
Honestly, the fact that only about 50% of the towns are on a river is unusual, because a river is the medival equivalent of a railway/highway. If you're not near a river, you're backwater, probably doing subsistence farming and generally producing all your own stuff, because you won't get more than local peddlers.

Middenheim gets away with it because it's a religious site first, a (religious) fortress second, and only third a city. As for the rest, the half not on a river probably consider 'forced to make all your own stuff' a bonus, because it does line up well with Ulric's tenants of self-sufficency.
Thomasfoolery said:
Middenland is relatively accessible by river from Altdorf, so it's not a huge stretch. Would still probably need some sort of incentive to make it worth the diversion though. Something like Mathilde getting the inside line on some promising trade good coming down from Laurelorn for instance would probably do it. Nordland though is a good ways further and through harsher competition on all the potential routes up, so yeah doesn't seem likely to be happening within the foreseeable future.
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...that is totally something Mathilde would do by accident. Because having a tight hold on two Huge Things In Trade isn't enough, and elf trade goods would be just the thing for a third.

And it fits the pattern of accidentally fucking over Marienburg.
 
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BurnNote said:
Honestly, the fact that only about 50% of the towns are on a river is unusual, because a river is the medival equivalent of a railway/highway. If you're not near a river, you're backwater, probably doing subsitence farming and generally producing all your own stuff, because you won't get more than local peddlers.

Middenheim gets away with it because it's a religious site first, a (religious) fortress second, and only third a city. As for the rest, the half not on a river probably consider 'forced to make all your own stuff' a bonus, because it does line up well with Ulric's tenants of self-sufficency.

...that is totally something Mathilde would do by accident. Because having a tight hold on two Huge Things In Trade isn't enough, and elf trade goods would be just the thing for a third.

And it fits the pattern of accidentally fucking over Marienburg.
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Middenheim isn't built on a river, but it is built over four roads leading to Marienburg, Altdorf, Talabheim and Kislev. Road trade might not be as good as river, but it's something.

EDIT: To clarify, the Great Northern Road, which was part of the Old Dwarf Road leading from Karaz a Karak to Sith Rionnisac (currently Marienburg) leads from Middenheim to Marienburg. The road Boney mentioned above, known as the Middenheim-Erengrad road leads to one of the three major Kislev cities (Erengrad). The road leading down to Grimminhagen, into the Taub into Talabec leads into Talabheim, and you can go down the Middenheim road down to Altdorf. Lots of roads coming out of Middenheim.
 
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I noticed how utterly small Nordland actually is when you don't count Laurelorn. I'm not going to measure the difference, but I assume that's smaller than even Hochland! No wonder they're so insecure.

Wait a minute, there's an incredibly long stretch of road over Laurelorn territory. I assume that's part of the Old Dwarf Road, but I have a feeling humans never use it unless they want to die.
 
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Codex said:
Wait a minute, there's an incredibly long stretch of road over Laurelorn territory. I assume that's part of the Old Dwarf Road, but I have a feeling humans never use it unless they want to die.
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They're Elven paths linking Tor Lithanel to the capitals of the other three Wards. The Old Dwarf Road is visible in the bottom-left, labelled the Great North Road.
 
Codex said:
I noticed how utterly small Nordland actually is when you don't count Laurelorn. I'm not going to measure the difference, but I assume that's smaller than even Hochland! No wonder they're so insecure.

Wait a minute, there's an incredibly long stretch of road over Laurelorn territory. I assume that's part of the Old Dwarf Road, but I have a feeling humans never use it unless they want to die.
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Not only that but it isolates two pieces of the province to the northwest and southwest. Like those pieces may as well not belong to Norland anywhere but on paper since you can't get to them without in one case braving the sea of claws and in the other case passing through rival Middenland.
 
BoneyM said:
They're Elven paths linking Tor Lithanel to the capitals of the other three Wards. The Old Dwarf Road is visible in the bottom-left, labelled the Great North Road.
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It says something about the Eonir that at least two of their Ward capitals (Pass of Stone, Kor Immamor) are ruins, and considering what we saw of the Pass of Stone, I doubt they reconstruct those ruins.

I wonder if they keep them as a reminder.
 
Resonant said:
So does Hargendorf, Dietershafen, Neues emskrank exist as human settlements within Laurelorn territory, going by that map?
Are the settlements marked X meaning they were forcibly razed recently?
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My reading of the also-red Oldenlitz means it seems likely X marks settlements also being, ah, returned to the Forest.
BoneyM said:
"I," she says, her gaze turning to you, "am Vicereine Cadaeth of what you may know as Oldenlitz, Ambassador to Middenheim on behalf of the Eonir and of Laurelorn."
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BoneyM said:
It's not immediately obvious when you reach Oldenlitz, as only a drop in the quality of the road and a thinning of the canopy overhead are immediately obvious. Closer examination finds a great deal of rubble half-buried in the leaf litter and flagstones shattered so that a sapling can rise defiantly through what was once a stone floor. And the saplings themselves prove of interest, as you can feel a faint tug upon the pool of Ulgu within you as you approach, and a wisp of magical energy you release is drawn into the wood and sinks downwards and out of sight.
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I imagine moving aggressively on those (probably) long-established, full-blown coastal towns like Dietershafen would provoke the fast extinction by war Cadaeth mentioned, Middenland backing or no.
 
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BoneyM said:

*extremely concerned Elector Count of Nordland noises*
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Wow, no wonder Nordland was furious. They lost 1/4 to 1/3 of h their territory, including a good chunk of the coastline. On the other hand, fuck them. That's what happens when you break treatises and steal other people's land. Sure, all the people who broke the treaty are already dead, but no one in Nordland seemed keen on making reparations.
 
Well to be fair it does explain why the electors were so bad about keeping those treaties. That is a crippling amount of land they do not get. It is like the beastmen problem most of the empire has but worse, I think that might make Norland the weakest or second weakest of the Elector Counts and they are the ones right next to the Sea of Claws

It still does not make their actions moral though. At the end of the day the elves were here first and they negotiated those treaties fair and square... not to mention you know Waytrees dying bringing the world that much closer to its end. Hard to argue with the morality of guarding those no matter what you think of land claims.
 
K von Carstein said:
Wow, no wonder Nordland was furious. They lost 1/4 to 1/3 of h their territory, including a good chunk of the coastline. On the other hand, fuck them. That's what happens when you break treatises and steal other people's land. Sure, all the people who broke the treaty are already dead, but no one in Nordland seemed keen on making reparations.
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They're not dead. 10,000 people left Nordland to join the K8P expedition along 8000 Middenland exiles and 2000+ Winter Wolves. Guess where all of them came from.

The Eonir might have wanted them dead, but if they noticed such a large collection of people moving out, they aren't saying anything about it.
 
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Codex said:
They're not dead. 10,000 people left Nordland to join the K8P expedition along 8000 Middenland exiles and 2000+ Winter Wolves. Guess where all of them came from.
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A good portion of them are still dead. It would be unreasonable to expect that the wolves managed to get the whole of the population out in time. In fact many of those people would have refused to leave their homes. It takes a measure of stubbornness to be a peasant not just in the empire but in Norland.
 
Codex said:
They're not dead. 10,000 people left Nordland to join the K8P expedition along 8000 Middenland exiles and 2000+ Winter Wolves. Guess where all of them came from.
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By « people who broke the treaty », I mean the first Elector Count that decided that part of Laurelorn would be conquered by humans, and maybe the colonists. Not their descendants, who were expelled/killed recently.
 
DragonParadox said:
A good portion of them are still dead. It would be unreasonable to expect that the wolves managed to get the whole of the population out in time. In fact many of those people would have refused to leave their homes. It takes a measure of stubbornness to be a peasant not just in the empire but in Norland.
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From that map, it looks like 5 towns got razed. Assuming an average population of 2500 per Town (It's a value I'm acquiring from Google Medieval town population so YMMV), then that means a total population of around 12,500. This of course assumes all 5 settlements were towns and not Villages, which have a smaller population. I would give an upper estimate of perhaps 2,500 dying and 10k making it out, but it's possibly lower.

The majority still survived, which is a far better scenario than the alternative.
 
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