Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

TotallyNotEvil · Aug 5, 2021

[X] Plan Redshirt v2 with Divine AV

Smartphone · Aug 5, 2021

[X] Plan Redshirt v2 with Divine AV

Rafin · Aug 5, 2021

BoneyM said:
snip

Woah, cool. Did you just have that all laying around?

BoneyM said:
At this time Bretonnia is only a few centuries old and the Empire is in the early stages of the Time of Three Emperors, and both look up from their internal conflicts to send forces to defend the southern realms and then to retaliate.

Why though? Was Jaffar's Dhar influence obvious enough for him to seem like a threat worth unifying against?

BoneyM said:
Every one of our people that ventures beyond their home carries a wayshard to find their way, and so they can be found if they fall."

Ooh. Nice adaptation of the incompatible new canon.

BoneyM said:
Ward of Frost since it was destroyed by the Dwarves. They were some of the loudest voices against contact with outsiders, and had two votes on the High Council - one for Vicarius, one for being a Major House. For centuries the vote had been fifteen to ten against, or sixteen to nine when the Stormwitch was Triumvir. And his family were influential amongst those that especially venerate Asuryan, so were able to keep the Champion Triumvirs swayed. But now, with House Elwyn extinct, your Graf proving himself to me, House Ellemakil being swayed by the Queen, and a Forestborn Warden of Frost in favour of contact, the politics have shifted. Thirteen to eleven for when the Warden of the Sun is Triumvir, twelve to twelve the rest of the time, and the Vicarius Triumvir is one of the Vicarii in favour of contact and the Champion no longer has House Elwyn's whispers in their ear, so the Triumvirate rules in favour of contact."

I'm already excited for the politics quagmire. A triumvirate, a monarch, a champion with political power, a non-Elven vicereine, a 24 vote council (with less than 24 Houses) that used to be 25 and Wardens of weather phenomena that get that title separately from being a Great House. Oh what fun there is to be.

BoneyM said:
"And who is the Triumvirate?"

"Me, the Queen, and this year the Warden of the Sun, Lady Delynna."

You put that together with what Prince Galenstra said. So, the High Council is the legislative body, and it has twenty-four members: twenty-one Major Houses, plus the three Wardens - the Vicarii, some of whom are also Princes for reasons you're not yet sure of - that aren't part of the Triumvirate that year. The Triumvirate is the Queen, the Champion, and one of the Vicarii, and of them the Queen is the only permanent member. And it sounds like the Triumvirate acts as tiebreaker for the High Council. "It must be a lot of work."

Oh. That was fast. Didn't know that Vicarius and Warden were synonyms in this context.

BoneyM said:
but unlike House Thyriolan they do look down upon humanity.

I'm super curious how the Queen (or her secretary) decided to phrase "is racist" in flowery Elven innuendos.

BoneyM said:
[ ] Explore one of the Wards of Laurelorn (specify which: Storm, Rain, Frost)

What about the Sun Ward?

BoneyM said:
[ ] Spend time assisting or ingratiating yourself with someone else: specify who and how.
[ ] Spend time investigating a character without their knowledge: specify who.

Is there some option in between these two that would represent getting to know a potential recruit without yet commiting to recruiting them? I'm specifically thinking about Elven Houses/Wards.

Codex · Aug 5, 2021

Rafin said:
What about the Sun Ward?

Exploring Tor Lithanel and the cultures of the Forest and city born cover that option. Tor Lithanel and its surrounds are included in the Sun Ward, so it would be overkill to have 4 options dedicated to a single area.

Drofgnal · Aug 5, 2021

[X] Plan Redshirt v2 with Divine AV

Redshirt Army · Aug 5, 2021

Organization	Ease of Recruitment	Value Added
Runesmiths Guild	4/5 - Mathilde Weber, Dawizhufokri	5/5 - Unique and irreplaceable input.
Amber College	4/5 - Dragomas has an interest in the project.	5/5 - Shamans have relevant info, Supreme Patriarch
Jade College	3/5 - They guard these secrets closely, but PanPan.	5/5 - Greatest Waystone info among the Colleges.
Gold College	4/5 - Good working relationship, Johann and Max.	2/5 - Unlikely to have much relevant info, have material backing
Light College	4/5 - Worked with Mira on a coup, Horstmann. (Only once Alric is out.)	4/5 - Excellent library, suspected of having some relevant info.
Bright College	3/5 - Nothing pushing for or against.	3/5 - Best enchanters among the Colleges.
Cult of Ulric	4/5 - Ar Ulric has a political imperative to work with Laurelorn.	3/5 (?)- Ancient pre-empire cult, potentially have Waystone info
Cult of Taal and Ryha	3/5 - Worked with them previously, Esbern and Seija	4/5 (?) - Inheritors of Belthani teachings, likely have Waystone info
Middenland Hedgewise	3/5 - Ranaldian, but have a beef with Ulric, cancels out.	3/5 (?) - Mathilde suspects they have some Waystone info
Nordland Hedgewise	3/5 - Haléthans, nothing special for or against.	3/5 (?) - Mathilde suspects they have some Waystone info
Ice Witches	2/5 - Worked with them previously, duty to preserve waystones	5/5 - Maintain Kislev's Waystones, definitely have Waystone insight
Damsels of the Lady	1/5 - No previous ties, issues with Ranald	4/5 - Some Belthani insight, active and interventionist goddess

picklepikkl · Aug 5, 2021

@Redshirt Army add the Lights.

Briefvoice said:
What do we think the likelihood/possibility is that the Gold Order is sitting on a trove of knowledge about Waystones?

BoneyM said:
Unlikely. Jades probably, Ambers maybe, Lights possibly, Golds no.

seekingflame said:
Is it confirmed that there are waystones in or near enough to Altdorf?

BoneyM said:
Yes, a lot. That's part of why it was chosen to host the Colleges. The Jade College is built around a massive one, and the ones that control the six leylines that the Light College is built on the intersection of become visible once or twice a decade as they shimmer back into reality on street corners and in gardens.

However, difficulty is likely to be high because we just poached Alric's best boy.

Mopman43 · Aug 5, 2021

Codex said:
No this is from DL:

Only real question is "Melkhior or Zacharias?"

Zacharias only defeated Melkhior post-2500 according to the dates I've seen given.

Could always be another necromancer of course, but I don't have any data there.

Codex · Aug 5, 2021

Redshirt Army said:
Organization
Ease of Recruitment Value Added
Runesmiths Guild 4/5 - Mathilde Weber, Dawizhufokri 5/5 - Unique and irreplaceable input.
Amber College 4/5 - Dragomas has an interest in the project. 5/5 - Shamans have relevant info, Supreme Patriarch
Jade College 3/5 - They guard these secrets closely, but PanPan. 5/5 - Greatest Waystone info among the Colleges.
Gold College 4/5 - Good working relationship, Johann and Max. 2/5 - Unlikely to have much relevant info, have material backing
Bright College 3/5 - Nothing pushing for or against. 3/5 - Best enchanters among the Colleges.
Cult of Ulric 4/5 - Ar Ulric has a political imperative to work with Laurelorn. 3/5 (?)- Ancient pre-empire cult, potentially have Waystone info
Cult of Taal and Ryha 3/5 - Worked with them previously, Esbern and Seija 4/5 (?) - Inheritors of Scythian teachings, likely have Waystone info
Middenland Hedgewise 3/5 - Ranaldian, but have a beef with Ulric, cancels out. 3/5 (?) - Mathilde suspects they have some Waystone info
Nordland Hedgewise 3/5 - Haléthans, nothing special for or against. 3/5 (?) - Mathilde suspects they have some Waystone info
Ice Witches 2/5 - Worked with them previously, duty to preserve waystones 5/5 - Maintain Kislev's Waystones, definitely have Waystone insight
Damsels of the Lady 1/5 - No previous ties, issues with Ranald 3/5 - Probably no special insight, active and interventionist goddess.

Just a few notes, the Cults of Taal and Rhya are speculated to have inherited their beliefs from the Belthani, same as the Amber and Jade Orders. The "inheritors of the Scythians" are the Kurgan, Gospodar and Roppsmen, all of who claim to be so. Mathilde also speculates that the Damsels might have some connection to the Belthani as well.

Ulric was also part of the Cult of Ishernos, which is the predecessor of the Cults of Ulric, Rhya and Taal back when it was one god split into multiple aspects based on seasons. Ishernos is also coincidentally Isha+Kurnous. Not that subtle.

No7sHere · Aug 5, 2021

[X] Plan Redshirt v2 with Divine AV with nice living space

Jreengus · Aug 5, 2021

picklepikkl said:
However, difficulty is likely to be high because we just poached Alric's best boy.

Are we expecting Alric to still be in charge by the end of the turn? I thought after that abysmal showing in the duels he'd be out and Matriarch Mira would be in.

Codex · Aug 5, 2021

Jreengus said:
Are we expecting Alric to still be in charge by the end of the turn? I thought after that abysmal showing in the duels he'd be and Matriarch Mira would be in.

I also think Mira is likely take his seat. I doubt he'll stay in his position for long after he was dunked on by a Moderately Complicated spell.

Chopak · Aug 5, 2021

~~[] Plan Redshirt v2 with Divine AV with nice living space~~

Wait, "nice" living space is the worse living space.

[X] Plan Redshirt v2 with Divine AV

Ganurath · Aug 5, 2021

[X] Plan Redshirt v2

This seems more likely to be useful for the Waystone Project than Divine AV.

Alratan · Aug 5, 2021

Jreengus said:
So I have a question that has been kinda bugging me for while but it may actually be relevant for the future if we try to recruit the hedge wizards. Has any reason ever been given for why Teclis didn't fold the hedgewizards into the grey order the same way he did for other existing magical traditions and other orders? Either in cannon on quest cannon.

In the RPG depiction of Hedgefolk, he offered, and they said no. It's also mentioned that Teclis didn't try to recruit priests of the legal gods as they were already using their abilities productively, so the ones that identified as divine casters may have been on his list of candidates.

Codex said:
Just a few notes, the Cults of Taal and Rhya are speculated to have inherited their beliefs from the Belthani, same as the Amber and Jade Orders. The "inheritors of the Scythians" are the Kurgan, Gospodar and Roppsmen, all of who claim to be so. Mathilde also speculates that the Damsels might have some connection to the Belthani as well.

Ulric was also part of the Cult of Ishernos, which is the predecessor of the Cults of Ulric, Rhya and Taal back when it was one god split into multiple aspects based on seasons. Ishernos is also coincidentally Isha+Kurnous. Not that subtle.

I think we're told that about Rhya, but not Taal. The history we have of Taal is that he was a patron tribal god of one of the imperial tribes that crossed the mountains whose cult was very successful at defeating the cults of other nature gods over time and assimilating their portfolios until he became the King of Nature.

That also makes that history of Ishernos very unlikely.

kingreaper · Aug 5, 2021

[x] Plan Windherding: Crawl now, Run next turn
-[x] JOHANN: Have Johann spend time getting to know Kadoh, who has expressed an interest in meeting the 'fist metal-Mage'.
-[x] EGRIMM: Work with him using windherding to combine Dazzle and Bewilder in a spell combo.
-[x] WEB-MAT: Attempt to recruit someone to WEB-MAT (Bright Magister Hugo Bann)
-[x] Attempt to bring a Karak's Runesmiths into the Waystone Project (Karak Azul)
--[x] COIN: The Gambler
-[x] Furnish the living spaces of the Waystone Project HQ (600gc)
-[x] Immerse yourself in the culture of the 'Cityborn' Toriour inhabitants of Tor Lithanel
-[x] Investigate how the Vitae reacts with Divine Magic.
-[x] EIC: Have a blackpowder factory built in Wurtbad.
-[x] SERENITY: Observations of Karag Dum and its unusual guardian

[X] Plan Putting Down Roots
-[X] WEB-MAT (2 AP + 1 free)
--[X] JOHANN: Have Johann spend time getting to know Kadoh, who has expressed an interest in meeting the 'fist metal-Mage'.
--[X] EGRIMM: EGRIMM: Study an artefact: Golden Arm
--[X] WEB-MAT: Attempt to recruit someone to WEB-MAT (Bright Magister Hugo Bann)
-[X] normal (3 AP + 1 overwork)
--[X] Furnish the living spaces of the Waystone Project HQ (300gc for nice)
--[X] Attempt to bring a Karak's Runesmiths into the Waystone Project (Karak Azul)
---[X] COIN: The Gambler
--[X] Immerse yourself in the culture of the 'Cityborn' Toriour inhabitants of Tor Lithanel
--[X] Immerse yourself in the culture of the 'Forestborn' Faniour inhabitants of the woods surrounding Tor Lithanel
-[X] free
--[X] SERENITY: Observations of Karag Dum and its unusual guardian
--[X] EIC: Have a blackpowder factory built in Wurtbad.

Codex · Aug 5, 2021

Alratan said:
In the RPG depiction of Hedgefolk, he offered, and they said no. It's also mentioned that Teclis didn't try to recruit priests of the legal gods as they were already using their abilities productively, so the ones that identified as divine casters may have been on his list of candidates.

I think we're told that about Rhya, but not Taal. The history we have of Taal is that he was a patron tribal god of one of the imperial tribes that crossed the mountains whose cult was very successful at defeating the cults of other nature gods over time and assimilating their portfolios until he became the King of Nature.

That also makes that history of Ishernos very unlikely.

There are multiple theories and conflicting histories over Ishernos, Taal, Rhya and Ulric. They're very old gods during a time in which tribal war was very common and literacy and accurate information was not prized

BoneyM said:
Another theory is that Taal and Rhya came pre-packaged as Ishernos and only split into separate gods later, possibly as a result of mankind learning to farm. Another is that Ulric was originally part of Ishernos, and the triskele motif often found on Runestones is a reference to this triad. This theory goes along well with the idea that kingship passes back and forth depending on the season, or that Ulric rules in times of war and the other two in times of peace.

Unless you can get Boney M to release a statement on the definitive history of the cults and their origin, the chances of Ulric having been a part of Ishernos is just as likely as the idea that Taal was an independent being. Ishernos isn't part of the mainstream cult, but the Jade Order worships Ishernos still:

BoneyM said:
Ishernos, a nature god often worshipped by the Jade College, is genderfluid and changes from male to female and back again with the seasons.

There is no definitive history of the gods in the Old World. It's a confusing mess.

flogoyog · Aug 5, 2021

[X] Plan Redshirt v2

Tomcost · Aug 5, 2021

[x] Plan Redshirt v2 with Divine AV

Alratan · Aug 5, 2021

Codex said:
There are multiple theories and conflicting histories over Ishernos, Taal, Rhya and Ulric. They're very old gods during a time in which tribal war was very common and literacy and accurate information was not prized

Unless you can get Boney M to release a statement on the definitive history of the cults and their origin, the chances of Ulric having been a part of Ishernos is just as likely as the idea that Taal was an independent being. Ishernos isn't part of the mainstream cult, but the Jade Order worships Ishernos still:

There is no definitive history of the gods in the Old World. It's a confusing mess.

The history of the gods may be unknowable, the history of the origin of the modern cult seems much open to investigation, as described in the bit of BoneyM's post you didn't quote:

BoneyM said:
One stumbling point is that despite the generally agreed upon idea that the humans that the Northern and Southern pantheons formed separately and only mingled after the human tribes entered the Reik basin and started trading and communicating with the humans that were already living in Tilea and Estalia, there's a lot of myths that appear to be older than this and yet refer to gods from both pantheons, describing them as one court or family, with things like Dark Morr advising King Taal, and Ulric and Ranald being brothers. The easy answer is that these were later inventions, and there's no carbon dating to answer the question one way or the other.

Even if there was Belthani worship of a god that can be idetified with Taal, that may not matter. If the modern Cult is descended from the Taleutens as described in Tome of Salvation, after the role of priest split off from the role of king (page 12) then there may be no continuity between Belthani worship of that entity and the current Imperial cult. The way the text is written in such an over the top way strongly implies that the 'Tilean' theory that the institution/role of priest was something that the proto-Imperial tribes picked up from the southern tribes is true.

Generally, this section of Tome of Salvation, is, I think, some of the best Warhammer material and is well worth a read if you have access to it. An interesting bit I just read is this:

Tome of Salvation page 12 said:
As the Tilean traders spread word of their Gods, they, in turn, were influenced by our ancestors, and returned to their homelands with new myths and legends, some of which were incorporated into their existing traditions. Thus, many of the earliest surviving Tilean texts have tales including the northern names for the Gods, rather than the original Tilean names. For, although Morr was a name that originated in the south (the northern names for the God of Death have been lost to time), the Tileans used different names for Manann, Taal and Rhya (Mathann, Karnos and Ishea), and had no equivalent for Ulric at all (although some brave theists have dared to draw comparisons between Ulric and Khaine). The extant texts of the time have many myths of one God meeting another, typically a Classical God meeting an Elder God, mirroring the contact between the Old World tribes. If the Tileans are to be believed, which I suggest they should not be, another important export from the south was the priest. Where the northern tribes relied upon temporal leaders—their chiefs and kings—to guard their spiritual welfare, Tileans like to believe the southern tribes had temporal and spiritual leaders. Whatever the truth, at a similar time to the arrival of the southerners and their Classical Gods, it is generally accepted that priests soon spread throughout the north.

You can see why Cython thinks that some of the human gods are the same as the elven ones with those early names!

WhiteNights · Aug 5, 2021

[X] Plan Redshirt v2 with Divine AV
[X] Plan Redshirt v2

Boney · Aug 5, 2021

Rafin said:
Woah, cool. Did you just have that all laying around?

No.

Rafin said:
Why though? Was Jaffar's Dhar influence obvious enough for him to seem like a threat worth unifying against?

You don't need to know their leader is touching the bad magic to not want a foreign expansionist power to gobble up a neighbour with cultural, religious, and economic ties to you.

Rafin said:
Is there some option in between these two that would represent getting to know a potential recruit without yet commiting to recruiting them? I'm specifically thinking about Elven Houses/Wards.

What do you mean, in between? Befriending them without their knowledge? Openly prying into their secrets?

WorldSlayer · Aug 5, 2021

[] Plan Redshirt v2 with Divine AV
[X] Plan Redshirt v2 with Divine AV with nice living space
[X] Plan Putting Down Roots
[X] Plan WEB-MAT & Culture

This looks good. Learning about the local place before we really get started is a smart move. Besides we have plenty of time since there's no deadline and it's important to get things done right.

Also by taking our time we should likely have some interesting elves approach us looking to get in on the action. There seem to be a number of interested parties involved after all, enough to even offer access to their unique resources and knowledge.

Redshirt Army · Aug 5, 2021

BoneyM said:
Befriending them without their knowledge?

Just use the Protector to create a secret vigilante persona with which to befriend them, easy. :thonk:

MiracleGrow · Aug 5, 2021

[X] Plan Redshirt v2 with Divine AV with nice living space.

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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