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A dragonbone staff might be a bit much to send to a Junior apprentice, but I think a dwarf made grounding rod would not go amiss just in case . We can buy those for money now.
This was assuming we were already claiming her as our own. Which if she's making use of our facilities and direct lessons, I would most certainly hope we're invested enough to make her a staff.

But yeah, that's probably not happening until she's at least a normal apprentice.
 
Here's a good faith argument in favor of the Gold Order.

Other than being the Order least likely to interfere with her and most likely to teach mundane skills useful for her "day job", there's also a chance that we can convince Max or Anton to take her on as an apprentice. After that, major interference would be uncouth, but it would allow us to keep an eye on things and to be personally close and supportive to Eike.

Honestly, I just don't think that the Vow of Poverty is that much of a paper tiger. And I also don't want to have Eike holding over 50% of the EIC as an end goal. So the Gold Order seems like the closest to a good and clean compromise to me.
 
Here's a good faith argument in favor of the Gold Order.

Other than being the Order least likely to interfere with her and most likely to teach mundane skills useful for her "day job", there's also a chance that we can convince Max or Anton to take her on as an apprentice. After that, major interference would be uncouth, but it would allow us to keep an eye on things and to be personally close and supportive to Eike.

Honestly, I just don't think that the Vow of Poverty is that much of a paper tiger. And I also don't want to have Eike holding over 50% of the EIC as an end goal. So the Gold Order seems like the closest to a good and clean compromise to me.

We are living breathing proof of how you can get around the Vow in this instance, this is not any random inheritance, it is one that already requires a Grey Order watcher. Also we are a lord magister, what issues may arise we have the clout to smooth over.

Lastly Johan would be a terrible master, he cannot cast half the spell list. It is Max or bust if you want to go Gold.
 
If a suitably thorough lecture was all it took, Magickers wouldn't exist.
If scaring Eike away from magic is the goal, I'm sure that Mathilde would have better ideas than a lecture.
We are living breathing proof of how you can get around the Vow in this instance, this is not any random inheritance, it is one that already requires a Grey Order watcher. Also we are a lord magister, what issues may arise we have the clout to smooth over.

Lastly Johan would be a terrible master, he cannot cast half the spell list. It is Max or bust if you want to go Gold.
I might be partially arguing on the base of PC exceptionalism here, but Mathilde is not quite the norm. It's one thing to be a wildly successful and heroic Grey Magister that has a lot of legitimate excuses of how those fishes jumped on board all on their own in order to obfuscate her embezzling and other money making schemes. It's another to there being an apprentice that is apparently being raised along the lines of "Poverty Schmovery" by both her family and her Master before Grey Order indoctrination can even take hold.

I'm not saying that there's no chance of getting everything to go as we want here. Just that it might create worries or even enemies within the Grey College. Because it could legitimately be seen as creating what might become a dynasty of EIC Wizards with inborn Divided Loyalties™ if not for some timely intervention (be it by laying claim to the EIC as an Order or by trying to put a wedge between Mathilde and Eike or by just accidentalling the latter) and it wouldn't even be a baseless worry. If Mathilde's patronage makes Eike a powerful Lady Magister in turn and Eike's loyalty is just a bit more self-oriented than Mathilde's and she too manages to take on an apprentice then the EIC could easily become one of the scariest institutions in the Empire in a fee generations and be considered as the base of a bonafide faction within the Grey Order, worthy of being mentioned in the BoneyM version of the Realms of Sorcery splatbook.


I agree with you on Johann though. I thought about putting his name in parentheses. Still, while quite a worse choice than Max, he wouldn't be outright terrible. Students can surpass their masters and I'd be surprised if Eike ends up with the same limitations. Also, there's no reason that Eike should end up with a full spell book anyway. It's quite rare for anyone to do so.
 
Still an exercise of playing Devil's Advocate here. Let's get to it:

Yeah... messing with Mathilde like that was possible when she was still a little babby journeywoman forced into playing spymaster. A Lady Magister who murders armies, tears down castles, rips mountains out of the warp, and has not one but two dwarf holds in basically eternal debt to her is not the sort of person you play silly buggers with. Well, not unless you're particularly suicidal and just want to go out with a very loud bang.
Also close personal friend of the empress who is very much loved by the emperor, and has given birth to a male heir.
And is a known associate of Asalnir the Dragon Lord.

There's stupid ideas, there's slitting your own throat, and then there's this.
I think you've misunderstood the point. Yes, it is absolutely silly buggers and stupid to do so. Unless you are in the same category. The nail that sticks out gets hammered the hardest.

So stuff like Handmaidens of the Lahmian Queen, or Dark Elf Generals. Or the personal attention of Marienburg. Hell, if Mat is a way to reach both a Dwarven King and the Imperial heir, Malekith or Lahmia herself including her as a stepping stone to some wider plan is possible. At which point, we're the ones playing silly buggers. Mat might be able to match a Handmaiden or a Dark Elf Hero unit in intrigue, but she is not yet ready to take on either the plots of the Queen of the Silver Pentacle, or Malekiths schemes. And all that is not counting what the Plotter of the Four might be up to.

Or the Council of Thirteen, if the Civil war is over. We know the Rats have reason to be pissed with us. We just don't know if they know that.

@primemountain the concern with us expanding our influence is only relevant if the Grey Order do not trust us. If they did not trust us we would be dead or on the run. The power and influence we already have is far and away greater than anything the EIC could give us. As for Wilhelmina Eike is not going to become any less her granddaughter just because we take her as an apprentice. That is how dynasties work.

Finally I think we have given enough sign that we care about our friends to any enemies who are watching. I mean that is the base assumption and we have done nothing to dissuade anyone of it.
Sure. But making moves that look like we're abusing our influence is how you erode that trust. So Mat needs to have good Diplo to present some kind of reasoning for why she wants to turn the EIC from a trading concern that also gathers rumors for her, into a pure instrument of the Grey Order.

The difference between the Director being a regular person/normal noble and a Grey Wizard matters. Mat gets away with what she does with the EIC because she's not the one running it. She's the one keeping it in check, while someone else runs it. The whole point of the EIC changes if a Grey Wizard is in charge of day to day operations.

That is the problem, from a dynastic standpoint. She already denied the inheritance to her sons, as unsuitable. The EIC and Eike are her legacy. But if Eike is going to be a Grey Wizard, then she needs to be a Wizard first. Not a merchant.

Now maybe Wilhelmina is fine with that. That would be great. But if she isn't, if she doesn't want the EIC to be run by a Wizard, even her own blood, then that's a problem. Because the thing with Wizards is, they don't have kids that often, comparatively, and their kids are at higher risk of being Wizards themselves.

So if the line ends with Eike, what then? How does she secure her legacy? Or does she trust a new Wizard Eike to figure that out when the time comes? Those are questions she needs to answer.

Like, no matter how tolerant of Wizards Wilhelmina is, she isn't one herself. It's not like Anton who had family with the curse/gift and had to face that already. Wilhelmina is going to be facing some inner turmoil over the matter. Saying :"Well surely she'll be reasonable and accommodating in this matter" isn't a done deal. It's likely, from what we know of her character, but not an assumed fact, like some here seem to suggest.

Magic is scary for the un-initiated, even when they are friends and understanding about it.

Like, think of the reputation hit, for her personally. If it gets out that Eike has magic, the regular, peasant Stirlander will start thinking that her line is tainted with magic, and some nobles will play up that angle as well. Especially if she keeps Eike as heir, instead of doing the culturally acceptable thing, and keeping distance, if not outright disinheriting her. This is Stirland remember. Mat might have moved the needle a touch on wizards, but they are still in general frowned upon.

Grey Magisters typically recruit people without many entanglements so that they avoid divided loyalties outside the Order. There's not going to be any framework of avoiding preferential treatment inside an organisation based on apprenticeships - any apprentice Mathilde picks will automatically have a massive head start because she's got twice the Magic score of the average Magister and probably about two hundred times the political pull.

Taking over the EIC is entirely untroubling compared to Mathilde's state of 'one good duel from becoming head of the Colleges' or 'one message and then having an army of very unamused Dawi'.
It's only not causing trouble if what follows is a definitive change in how the EIC is run, and what it's goals are.

If mostly owned and run by Grey Wizards, they cannot, cannot, have the profit motive be their primary drive. Right now, with Wilhelmina in charge, it is. If profit is not the driving force of the organization anymore, then are they really primarily a merchant concern still, or is that a side business? It can be done, but if you want to do it without impacting the very trust that allows for it to happen, significant changes to the EIC have to be made. Changes which aren't going to be easy, or necessarily successful.
 
Here's a good faith argument in favor of the Gold Order.

Other than being the Order least likely to interfere with her and most likely to teach mundane skills useful for her "day job", there's also a chance that we can convince Max or Anton to take her on as an apprentice. After that, major interference would be uncouth, but it would allow us to keep an eye on things and to be personally close and supportive to Eike.

Honestly, I just don't think that the Vow of Poverty is that much of a paper tiger. And I also don't want to have Eike holding over 50% of the EIC as an end goal. So the Gold Order seems like the closest to a good and clean compromise to me.
So we let the order inherit our shares, Eike inherits her grandmother, and Eike's children (if any) inherit her while Grey Order remains silent partner, or if Eike has no kids the shares go to Grey Order.
There is no issue with vow of poverty, she just needs to jump through some hoops and keep pouring all her profits back into the enterprise, or some useful purpose.
 
If scaring Eike away from magic is the goal, I'm sure that Mathilde would have better ideas than a lecture.

I might be partially arguing on the base of PC exceptionalism here, but Mathilde is not quite the norm. It's one thing to be a wildly successful and heroic Grey Magister that has a lot of legitimate excuses of how those fishes jumped on board all on their own in order to obfuscate her embezzling and other money making schemes. It's another to there being an apprentice that is apparently being raised along the lines of "Poverty Schmovery" by both her family and her Master before Grey Order indoctrination can even take hold.

I'm not saying that there's no chance of getting everything to go as we want here. Just that it might create worries or even enemies within the Grey College. Because it could legitimately be seen as creating what might become a dynasty of EIC Wizards with inborn Divided Loyalties™ if not for some timely intervention (be it by laying claim to the EIC as an Order or by trying to put a wedge between Mathilde and Eike or by just accidentalling the latter) and it wouldn't even be a baseless worry. If Mathilde's patronage makes Eike a powerful Lady Magister in turn and Eike's loyalty is just a bit more self-oriented than Mathilde's and she too manages to take on an apprentice then the EIC could easily become one of the scariest institutions in the Empire in a fee generations and be considered as the base of a bonafide faction within the Grey Order, worthy of being mentioned in the BoneyM version of the Realms of Sorcery splatbook.


I agree with you on Johann though. I thought about putting his name in parentheses. Still, while quite a worse choice than Max, he wouldn't be outright terrible. Students can surpass their masters and I'd be surprised if Eike ends up with the same limitations. Also, there's no reason that Eike should end up with a full spell book anyway. It's quite rare for anyone to do so.

I'll he honest here, I do not think enemies within the Grey College exist, like as a general concept, if you have made enemies within the order that is supposed to be the loyal secret police than the only real reason for it is because you think the other Magister of disloyal in which case you should report them not play political games. If you are playing political games for some other reason than it is you who have failed in upholding your vows
 
Honestly, I do not really want to put her on the greys. I do not think it fits her . We are doing this solely out of desire for an apprentice. I'll vote ...

[x] Wizard
-[X] No specific Order
-[X] Let Eike decide
[X] Clergy
 
I think you've misunderstood the point. Yes, it is absolutely silly buggers and stupid to do so. Unless you are in the same category. The nail that sticks out gets hammered the hardest.

So stuff like Handmaidens of the Lahmian Queen, or Dark Elf Generals. Or the personal attention of Marienburg. Hell, if Mat is a way to reach both a Dwarven King and the Imperial heir, Malekith or Lahmia herself including her as a stepping stone to some wider plan is possible. At which point, we're the ones playing silly buggers. Mat might be able to match a Handmaiden or a Dark Elf Hero unit in intrigue, but she is not yet ready to take on either the plots of the Queen of the Silver Pentacle, or Malekiths schemes. And all that is not counting what the Plotter of the Four might be up to.

Or the Council of Thirteen, if the Civil war is over. We know the Rats have reason to be pissed with us. We just don't know if they know that.
If we have someone on that level gunning for us, there are far larger things to worry about than some of our old friends being targeted. And as you say, we're not nearly there yet.
 
If we have someone on that level gunning for us, there are far larger things to worry about than some of our old friends being targeted. And as you say, we're not nearly there yet.

More to the point the answer to the question 'what do we do if intrigue heroes target our friends' cannot be 'pretend not to have friends', since the same skills that make them good assassins also make them good spies.
 
I'll he honest here, I do not think enemies within the Grey College exist, like as a general concept, if you have made enemies within the order that is supposed to be the loyal secret police than the only real reason for it is because you think the other Magister of disloyal in which case you should report them not play political games. If you are playing political games for some other reason than it is you who have failed in upholding your vows
That all sounds pretty, but Mathilde is a Lady Magister who apparently has the ear and confidence of the Grey Patriarch. I'm pretty sure that there's plenty of Magisters and maybe even a couple of Lord Magisters who don't think that Kurtis Kramovitch should still be around, but he is. The idea that the Grey Order, made up of humans and near humans with a predisposition to secrecy, confusion and paranoia, is some kind of always perfectly aligned and Incorruptible monolith seems a bit optimistic to me. Especially in a Quest called "Divided Loyalties".
 
That all sounds pretty, but Mathilde is a Lady Magister who apparently has the ear and confidence of the Grey Patriarch. I'm pretty sure that there's plenty of Magisters and maybe even a couple of Lord Magisters who don't think that Kurtis Kramovitch should still be around, but he is. The idea that the Grey Order, made up of humans and near humans with a predisposition to secrecy, confusion and paranoia, is some kind of always perfectly aligned and Incorruptible monolith seems a bit optimistic to me. Especially in a Quest called "Divided Loyalties".

I'm not saying they all march in lockstep, I'm saying they would not be inclined to resort to murder against each other and their interests, precisely because if that was the case they could never trust each other and the order would dissolve. There has to be baseline level of trust for the Grey Order to function.
 
For people suggesting that Grey does not fit Eike, I'd like to point out that the purpose of the Grey collage (diplomats, stewards and spies) neatly dovetails with the purpose of the EIC (foreign relations, economic improvement, and information gathering).

The only other order that comes close, in my opinion, is the Golds, because while their focus is material science, you actually have to do something with those materials once you've made them. The focus on logic and maths would also be useful, but it's been pointed a few times in-quest that it's unusual for Golds to have good interpersonal relationship skills, and it's possible that the influence of the gold wind could influence Eike negatively in that manner.

The influence of the Grey wind, however, could make her a shrewd and cunning negotiator, which would be very useful in her line of work.

Hmm... it sounds a bit callous to talk about how the wind is going to shape Eike's thoughts, and picking one for the role she was born into, but the fact of the matter is that she is going to be influenced by one of the winds no matter what, and it might as well as be the one that compliments both her upbringing and her inheritance, rather than one that fights against it.

Or it could just be that Eike hates trade and diplomacy, and wants nothing more than to rip off her clothes and run into the wilderness, abandoning civilisation in favour of the Amber wind. Who knows? That's why Eike making her choice is important, but based on what we know of her at this moment, it feels like Grey is the best option for her, both in terms of personality and her future. I don't want to force Eike into a wind she doesn't like, but I'm not convinced she won't like Ulgu, and I think by advocating this we do have her best interests in mind. We're not just forcing her into the Grey collage because it befits us. I am excited for the possibility that we can bring her in as our apprentice, but if I felt she would be happier as a bright or something, I'd push that instead.
 
If we're talking about the influences of the Winds on her thought processes, it's worth remembering the conversation Mathilde and Panoramia had about Ulgu actually making mystics and showmen more than spies and assassins. Not sure if that's better or worse here, but it's a thought.
 
If we're talking about the influences of the Winds on her thought processes, it's worth remembering the conversation Mathilde and Panoramia had about Ulgu actually making mystics and showmen more than spies and assassins. Not sure if that's better or worse here, but it's a thought.

Ulgu makes both I think, the Grey Order likes to show the latter over the former.
 
Ulgu makes both I think, the Grey Order likes to show the latter over the former.
Eh, sort of? If I remember the conversation correctly, Mathilde was saying that you can make Ulgu into a tool for the latter, but the former is more of its natural state. The College just puts the work in because spies and assassins are a lot more useful.
 
Ulgu makes both I think, the Grey Order likes to show the latter over the former.
I'm not actually sure how much the Grey Wind on its own makes people follow the thought patterns of diplomats, spies and assassins vs how much it's just the role the Imperial institution of the Grey Order has chosen for itself.

It's one of several reasons for why I'd really like to meet one or more Kurgan Shamans of Ulgu.
 
I'm not actually sure how much the Grey Wind on its own makes people follow the thought patterns of diplomats, spies and assassins vs how much it's just the role the Imperial institution of the Grey Order has chosen for itself.

It's one of several reasons for why I'd really like to meet one or more Kurgan Shamans of Ulgu.
Or an Ulgu dragon. That would be cool.
 
I can't find anything about Ulgu dragons (Shadow dragons? Mist dragon? Mystery dragon!). Would be real neat if they are around, but the nature of their winds makes them practically undetectable.
As far as I know there's nothing in canon about them, but everything about the way dragons have been presented both in and out of quest suggests they're not impossible, and probably have at least a few hiding somewhere.
 
Sure. But making moves that look like we're abusing our influence is how you erode that trust. So Mat needs to have good Diplo to present some kind of reasoning for why she wants to turn the EIC from a trading concern that also gathers rumors for her, into a pure instrument of the Grey Order.

The difference between the Director being a regular person/normal noble and a Grey Wizard matters. Mat gets away with what she does with the EIC because she's not the one running it. She's the one keeping it in check, while someone else runs it. The whole point of the EIC changes if a Grey Wizard is in charge of day to day operations.

That is the problem, from a dynastic standpoint. She already denied the inheritance to her sons, as unsuitable. The EIC and Eike are her legacy. But if Eike is going to be a Grey Wizard, then she needs to be a Wizard first. Not a merchant.

Now maybe Wilhelmina is fine with that. That would be great. But if she isn't, if she doesn't want the EIC to be run by a Wizard, even her own blood, then that's a problem. Because the thing with Wizards is, they don't have kids that often, comparatively, and their kids are at higher risk of being Wizards themselves.

So if the line ends with Eike, what then? How does she secure her legacy? Or does she trust a new Wizard Eike to figure that out when the time comes? Those are questions she needs to answer.

Like, no matter how tolerant of Wizards Wilhelmina is, she isn't one herself. It's not like Anton who had family with the curse/gift and had to face that already. Wilhelmina is going to be facing some inner turmoil over the matter. Saying :"Well surely she'll be reasonable and accommodating in this matter" isn't a done deal. It's likely, from what we know of her character, but not an assumed fact, like some here seem to suggest.

Magic is scary for the un-initiated, even when they are friends and understanding about it.

Like, think of the reputation hit, for her personally. If it gets out that Eike has magic, the regular, peasant Stirlander will start thinking that her line is tainted with magic, and some nobles will play up that angle as well. Especially if she keeps Eike as heir, instead of doing the culturally acceptable thing, and keeping distance, if not outright disinheriting her. This is Stirland remember. Mat might have moved the needle a touch on wizards, but they are still in general frowned upon.


It's only not causing trouble if what follows is a definitive change in how the EIC is run, and what it's goals are.

If mostly owned and run by Grey Wizards, they cannot, cannot, have the profit motive be their primary drive. Right now, with Wilhelmina in charge, it is. If profit is not the driving force of the organization anymore, then are they really primarily a merchant concern still, or is that a side business? It can be done, but if you want to do it without impacting the very trust that allows for it to happen, significant changes to the EIC have to be made. Changes which aren't going to be easy, or necessarily successful.

Wow that is a very long list of potential worries when these are the thoughts of Lord Magister Mathilde Weber on the matter. Notice the distinct lack of thinking 'I must justify my choice before my peers' or 'Wilhelmina might secretly hate and fear wizards somehow and not want to share influence over her niece':

Nudging Eike down the path of the Grey Order might, from a certain point of view, be best for the Order and the EIC. The Vow of Poverty would not necessarily prevent Eike from inheriting, but it will mean that she will be required to make the EIC 'of direct and practical use to her cause'. You take a moment to smile at the thought - perhaps instead of becoming Wilhelmina's heir, she would be Wilhelmine's.

Or... perhaps your own. You'd given thought in the past to taking on an Apprentice, even though you never went through with it. But if a Grey Wizard is going to be trained to be the future handler of the EIC, you would be the natural fit to do the training. An interesting thought, but not one you have to wrestle with just now - she'd need to have the basics taught to her before she took on a Master, and that's a process of several years.


Regular Stirlander peasants are not the customers of the EIC and their opinions do not matter one whit. Wilhelmina has never given us any indication of being even wary of magic and we have never been called to justify our business actions by our peers, nor have we called them for like cause. Look at our master and his inns. It feels very much like building a mountain out of a molehill particularly as not all the decisions are ours.

Say for instance that Wilhelmina really does not want to share influence over her niece, she can still just pick another college, we are not forcing her.

Say one of our peers have an issue with the direction we have taken the EIC in, they can just talk to us, no need to jump right to ordering assassinations.
 
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