Orc Quest; or, A Critical Examination of Agency Through in Interactive Fiction (Warcraft)

Ok, then why do demons loose? I mean that's kind of their defining feature, they are loosers.

Arguably the biggest reason the demons are constantly being driven back is plot. While people like escapist fantasy about fighting things that are functionally Evil, a much smaller group enjoys seeing them win.

But past that, it tends to be the same issues that people always bring up for more destructive/selfish/dark side factions. Either groups cannot work together without oversight from someone they are both afraid of, or have little initiative of their own. For example, see the Scourge biting the hand that made it immediatally upon being able too. Giving people powerups that also corrupt them is great for getting quick power, but bad for long term stability of your people.

On the broader topic, I think I'm going to let myself be won over by my Devil's advocate side.

[X] Take the Fel

It was pointed out that the Shaman who trained Thrall dabbled in Warlockery at some point, but was able to use other aspects. Most issues with the Fel that do not wrap up in the general moralism tales come from the fact that it does not build or protect. So people who embrace it for nothing but power end up with nothing but power. And that isn't great when you need to fight skillfully.

I think we could keep our feet in multiple places, and its fun to learn how to bind demons. Maybe that can help with future elemental things too. Usurping power is a thing done here, never a better time to do it then in the formative stages of a culture.

On a more personal note, my three WoW characters way back when were a shaman, mage, and a warlock. So its always been fun to dabble in magics, and I do enjoy exploring the malleability of this form of story telling. Blizzard cant mingle because they need to make a game. But why not explore what a mingled multi-source magical tradition can do?

While we are not operating in the Universes where the Horde won the First or Second Wars, theorectially they are out there. Warcraft games let you win after all, but our being humans the Human victories are Canon. So while I have no desire to fall into the darker impulses or do demon worshippy things, I want to use the lore at our disposal to get better/help. Besides, dealing with the Darker impulses of power is all about what Honor is supposed to be about. Wielding a Big Stick Justly. So while taking it would make whatever bad impulses worse (see neeru's paranoia), by not pursing a solo fel strategy we can mitigate it.

To finalize, I have also been playing a bit of the Crusader King 2 Warcraft mod and enjoying the way they handle the "Fel " faiths. Basically, there are out and out Sargaras worshipers, so the Legion. The original Horde is Fel-tainted, as in a basic wallowing in the Fel without any real structure. These tend to become Sargarite over time, because when you have no structure you sink to the lowest point. But there is one faith that really only the player can take, or rarely pops up in generated Warlocks. And Illidan of course, because its an attempt to actually sum up his ideas of using the Fel to protect Azeroth.

But I don't want Illidan baggage, so I will just say that I enjoy taking risks when it comes to using power sources safely and for Good (whatever that may be at the time). We can manage the Fel both by channeling into our Blademaster skills, and see what warlocking is like. We can also pursue Arcane, Elemental, Druidic powers in the future to find further balance.
 
Of course, it amplifies the traits most in line with it's own chaotic and destructive nature preferentially to the ones that would keep such character flaws in check. It increase bloodlust more than will power, ambition more than vision, and potency over prudence.

Fel strengthens you but it strengthens parts of you that are problematic more than the parts that keep those problematic parts in check. To use fel safely would require awareness of one's flaws and a willingness to wrestle with them constantly.
 
but was able to use other aspects.
Not exactly a great example seeing as Drek'thar doesn't use them now. Arguably the blademaster we had talking too us right now is a better example, but he's likely using burning blade dark shamanism, especially combined with the link to the elements being emotional on tour end.

And that isn't great when you need to fight skillfully.
Fel does not preclude skill, it precludes being anything but fighting and destroying.

and its fun to learn how to bind demons
Yeah, but that's not what this is, this is fel steroids not warlock 101. Maybe it'd open it up, but this option does not currently lead to what you are after my man.

Furthermore we want to make a multi tradition thing. Its something Fractious has even linked fanfiction to us for to show what that stuff could do, the thing is I want to try any other type of magic before the fel in that case, because it is the worst magic.

Honor is supposed to be about.
Incorrect, honor is about holding something in high esteem or doing something that is morally right, but since when was starting unprovoked war multiple times the honourable thing? Well ask any orc and they'd say it 100% is.

What makes Grok reasonably good is that he's got a working sense of empathy wider than a puddle and a general feeling that murdering children is a bad thing unlike say

1. Orgrim doomhammer
2. Blackhand
3. Grommash Hellscream

You know 99% of the greatest orc heroes.

But honour is exactly the sort of thing that the fel is very good at twisting back on itself.

We can also pursue Arcane, Elemental, Druidic powers in the future to find further balance.
But that's the thing, the fel actively destroys those attempts at balance and taking the fel is the exactly the kind of thing that makes learning those things harder!

Its almost like people see a fel using warlock and think "may I should not teach them my magical secrets when their mere presence corrupts the air I'm breathing" especially when they're not exaggerating they're right.

This isn't devil's advocacy this is not reading the option.

[X] Refuse the Fel

The only potential benefit to taking fel steroids at this point is that we currently lack our connection to the elements due to our disrupted emotions, but injecting anger juice into our veins is the exact ****ing opposite of fixing that problem!

We need Grok to get back his emotional balance and I'm relatively confident that fel dad would deliberatly sabotage that due to his dislike of the elements.
 
The March of Forneus 11
The March of Forneus 11

[x] Refuse the Fel

You refuse the Fel. You speak nothing of it to your father and he doesn't bring it up either, though you see him speaking with Sesk and Ishi over the next few days.

You consider the two blademasters' words and wonder if you've made the right choice, but are swiftly distracted from such thoughts by the arrival of visitors.

While your father's given orders than none by permitted to enter the Cleft without his approval, from your position you can see the entrance and a small party gathered outside. You make a sign and the guards permit them to enter.

"You got into a battle without me, little brother!"

Vark is first among them, the massive grinning orc striding toward you, hesitating slightly as he sees your injuries and decides not to pull you into an embrace.

The others are all familiar faces, Kartha of the Shattered Hand, Sorek of the Blackrock, the Darkspear Vok'fon and finally Scorn the Outcast.

You smile as you renew your acquaintance with each, calling for food to be brought to you as they sit down beside you.

While at first the conversation is light, there's a tension in those who didn't stand at Dreadmist with you and eventually you find yourself recounting the story of the battle, Kartha or Scorn pitching in occasionally.

Vark and Vok'fon say little apparently surprised at the scale of devastation you describe, Vok'fon in particular being shocked, perhaps due to his greater awareness of spiritual matters given his father's position.

Sorek however has a dark look on his face.

"We know of Jubei'thos." he remarks, "He led out people in Alterac, resisting the Alliance for many years while others had been captured. He had dealings with demons they say and didn't heed Thrall's call to sail across the sea."

"I've spoken with a few of the other blademasters." you say, "They say he served with the Blackrock for a long time, even going back to Draenor."

It wasn't uncommon for orcs of some clans to effectively join others, while some clans kept to themselves and their own traditions, the bonds between others were strong in kin and otherwise. The chiefs of the Thunderlords and Frostwolves had once been brothers as one example, and of course there was the close association between the Blackrock and your own clan, both favouring discipline and being more technologically advanced than other clans.

"And Akinos identified him? Even though he wore a human's face?"

You nod, "Jubei'thos didn't deny it either, he recognised Akinos as well."

"That is evil indeed." Sorek replies to general agreement.

The Blackrock expresses a strong desire to avenge Akinos, one apparently shared by many of the other aspirants who trained under the blademaster. "And besides this," he continues, "clearly much has happened in Alterac since the Horde left that we know little of."

"It had crossed my mind…" you remark, "But what are the rest of you up to?"

Vark describes his journeys and battles among the Warsong, opposing the tribes of Quillboar in the southern Barrens, hinting at a reconnaissance in force against the Centaur of Desolace that had apparently been planned.

Vok'fon claims he's also going to go into a sort of exile, either a mission to the Zandalari trolls or to the jungles of Stranglethorn. Apparently while his politics had been acceptable on his return to Sen'jin previously, now the village is stronger again some of the old tensions have cropped up and he's resolved to head off again to avoid weakening his people.

Kartha just shrugs, "I'll go where I'm sent.", though she also describes tensions on the Merchant Coast to the south which her clan have apparently been watching.

Scorn just huffs and gestures with one hand toward you.

You talk a little more before they all depart again, promising to inform them once you've decided where you're going to go.

Your next encounter is less comfortable, though your rank and clear standing in the clan make it less unpleasant then it might be.

"My son, tell them of Jubi'thos specifically."

Your father has gathered a small conference in the privacy of your tent, composing himself and a few of the warlocks of the clan known for their particular experience and expertise. Sitting listening to your story is Drek the Firecaller, the pyremaster and priest of fire, Keldran the Necrolyte, the clan's expert on Gul'dan's death magic, as well as Ureda, one of the only female warlocks and one trained in the human tradition of arcane magic.

"What was the manner of this disintegration?" asks Keldran, and in turn you describe how Jubei'thos seemed to flicker and weaken as you fought, then grow stronger, motes of him fluttering away and black ichor dripping from his mouth.

"A warding perhaps? Some sustaining enchantment?" Ureda murmurs, considering your words.

But Keldran shakes his head, "A binding, the form fades but the binding gives it power, or so I guess."

Drek makes his own observations and over time the three experts and your father puzzle out the mystery, trying to draw together the various clues to find out exactly how Jubei'thos, a blademaster associated with the demon-worshipping portions of the Blackrock clan, had come to inhabit a human's body as some sort of shadow creature. They seem particularly confused regarding the nature of the shadow magic the former blademaster wielded, comparing it with several sources you're not familiar with.

"We know that the Scourge were active in the area once we left." points out Keldran, "But it almost sounds like this is another Gorefiend."

This ignites another debate. "I watched Gorefiend being made." your father strikes back, "Jubei'thos wielded a blade of shadow not a jewelled truncheon."

"I said 'almost'." Keldran notes, his tone slightly less respectful than one should use toward a clan chief, and he averts his eyes after a brief glare from your father, "Besides the Scourge raised human knights and paladins, not transferred the souls of orc warlocks into humans. I'm fully aware the two are different."

And the conversation continued.

You followed it quite well given your relatively little knowledge on the subject. You were aware of many of the aspects of demons and the Burning Legion than might be necessary to summon or slay such creatures, but the undead you knew less of.

It started out, as far as you know, with the Shadowmoon clan. Gul'dan had joined them and learnt their magics, and in turn he'd used the necrolytes, an order of auxiliary spellcasters, to strengthen the Horde's invasion of Azeroth. The necrolytes had used the magics of shadow and death to set curses on their foes from afar and raise the dead, but in general they'd proved less powerful than the warlocks. Then Orgrim Doomhammer had become Warchief and slaughtered the Shadow Council and Gul'dan had only managed to save himself by pointing out that without warlocks the Horde lacked magical support against the human magic users.

Gul'dan had taken the souls of the dead warlocks and bound them in the bodies of fallen human knights, equipping each with a crystal that bound them to their bodies which many mounted in staves as you father had pointed out. These had been the first Death Knights and Teron Gorefiend had been their chief, serving the Horde loyally through the wars.

That had, as far as you were aware, been the first use of death magic on Azeroth, but in time the Scourge had risen, sometimes quite literally from the grave.

As you'd heard it told, the Burning Legion had adopted a new strategy after the failure of the Horde to conquer Azeroth. They'd turned to subversion again, this time promising eternal life and great power to various human wizards and nobles, chief among them the crown prince of Lordaeron, the most powerful of the human kingdoms. Arthas Menethil had cut his way through his kingdom, raising those that fell before him into undeath, an unthinking, ever faithful army that couldn't betray the Legion like your people had.

However as the conversation touched on these issues Keldran once again noted that Arthas had raised his peers, knights and lords, to stand at his side in a sort of unholy nobility of Death Knights, the second generation of their foul kind. To raise an Orc seemed an inversion of such a tradition.

Eventually though they depart, though you realise after they leave that you forgot something.

"I didn't ask them about why Jubei'thos seemed to weaken as he got closer to me but could defeat Akinos." you remark, sharing an evening meal with you father.

He frowns, "I assumed it was the Bloodstone."

"The what?"

He jabs a spoon at you, indicating the amulet you wear, perhaps the only possession of yours to survive the Battle of Dreadmist.

You reach down, fingering the dark stone, "What do you mean?"

Your father's eyebrows raise. "You mean you've been wearing it all this time without knowing what it was?"

Your cheeks flush, "What indication did I give otherwise?"

Your father's eyebrows rise further, his expression of disbelief rather out of place consider his tusks and the demonic glow in his eyes, he puts down his spoon and holds up both hands, giving an exaggerated look at the ceiling, "May the Spirits spare me from impetuous children." Then he looks down, "You arrived here having read the Tome, apparently independently prepared and consumed two Saptas, bound one Elemental and managed to break an artefact of our clan and captured a separate Elemental. I assumed you weren't wearing Bloodstone simply because it was shiny."

Your blush only darkens, "I took it off Baneshadow but it didn't seem to do anything!"

You go to sleep that night rather embarrassed, but more knowledgeable about Bloodstone, a substance apparently favoured by warlocks which had various properties, among them the absorption of magic for various purposes.

The next day you rise, sitting on your bed as you consider your next steps. Your father has given some indications of what sort of activity might be going on and you've investigated a few things, but you've yet to indicate a firm preference.

You consider several matters when thinking on the subject, firstly, you've rather strayed from the path you set yourself when you set out from the Valley of Trials. You'd intended to set yourself against the Burning Legion and fight for Azeroth, rising above the petty squabbles among polities and taking battle to the true threat to the world, yet you'd still gotten embroiled in the internal politicking of the Horde.

Secondly, despite your father's protestations, it seemed clear to you that you were being pursued, hunted… Even if you disagreed with some of what Sesk and Ishi had said, you knew they were right in one thing, if Jubei'thos met you again you would die, and likely die quickly. While you might find safety in numbers, it isn't in your character to use others as shields. The way to secure yourself and others seemed to be to get far away from Jubei'thos, far enough that he couldn't reach you easily.

Thirdly, regardless of your father's scornful nature, you were an exile, or shortly to be one. Such a judgement is inherently subjective, but you know Thrall will likely try to enforce it, especially against your clan if they aid you openly. You must get away from the Horde and anyone who might recognise a small Orc with a burning sword.

Wherever you go you'll likely have companions. You suspect from the amount Sesk and Ishi have been hanging about you recently that they might be dispatched to look after you, but in any case you suspect your father will probably send a small force with you of warriors and you know that Scorn at least still intends to hold you to the bargain you struck with him, service for status. Kartha was sent to spy on you at the Peak and Vark needs little excuse for a fight so perhaps they might accompany you.

There seems one obvious choice, many matters seem to come together and push you toward Lordaeron. The remnants of that once mighty kingdom had sallied forth to retake their lands from the undead and you have it in mind to join them in battle against this worthy foe. You've bloodied your blade against less deserving targets, now you could head across the sea to offer your sword to this Crusade. Additionally, Alterac isn't far from Lordaeron and visiting that wrecked kingdom will allow you to learn more about Jubei'thos and perhaps find any secrets of your clan he kept before his death, or rather undeath. You recall Akinos once noting that Jubei'thos was one of the few who knew how to forge new blades rather than merely work with ones already made. Sorek has noted his desire to journey on such a mission and perhaps he and the other aspirants will join you. Additionally they say the warriors of Lordaeron follow a figure with a fiery sword, could this be an omen?

You could of course continue as you have been in the clan, involving yourself in the various events and politics of your father and the warlocks. You're certainly less inclined toward this option, and you'll have to move with more subtly, but your father has indicated that he'd be happy to keep you, or perhaps send you east toward the other stronghold of your clan in Desolace, or even send you to join the blademasters he's assembled in whatever war they've been given.

Lastly, you could join one of the others who'd spoken earlier such as Vok'fon on his expeditions among the trolls.

After considering the matter carefully, you decide to devote yourself to the following mission:

[ ] The Scarlet Crusade
Journey to oppose the Scourge, investigate Jubei'thos, and perhaps even conduct some diplomacy with the humans in the same manner as your mentor Akinos had once done.

[ ] Go East
Set out for Desolace and the other stronghold of your clan in Kalimdor. You've heard evil whispers about Thunder Axe Fortress, what might you find there? Might you aid the Warsong expedition Vark mentioned?

[ ] The Bloody Thorns
The Blademasters are gathering for some assault on the Quilboar of the southern Barrens. You'll be far away from most Horde settlements and you want to learn more of their art. Having said that, you also realise this will be a bloody affair and can you accept such a use for your sword after your experiences at Dreadmist?

[ ] The Merchant Coast
Journey south toward Theramore, the Kul Tiran settlement on the coast of Kalimdor. Once again you consider whether you might continue Akinos' work in diplomacy with the humans of the city-state, or perhaps the settlements of the Merchant Coast. Then again what would you say if some bedraggled outcast wandered up to you and asked for hospitality? What can you expect from the humans? Furthermore, if you decide to accompany Kartha might the Shattered Hand have something less than honourable planned for the region?

[ ] The Golden City
Vok'fon intends to take adventure among the other troll tribes of the world. First he's mentioned he intends to go to Dazar'alor, the capital of the Zandalari, the most powerful of the troll peoples. After that he's mentioned perhaps going on to Stranglethorn Vale.

[ ] The Broken Isles
You once considered that the Stormreavers, the old clan of Gul'dan, might somehow be salvageable and persuaded to serve the Horde again. Journey toward the Broken Isles, a place of great mystery and danger and seek them out.

[Write in] The Wide World
You decide to journey to some other place. Write ins must broadly follow the conditions set out above in Grok's thoughts of 1, altruistic action against evil forces, 2, stuff away from Jubei'thos, 3, stuff away from the Horde.


Right so we're at the end of the arc now, here are your choices for the next arc, and possibly after that. If you're unsure or want more information on any of these ask me. Assume that Grok has gone about asking people stuff and therefore has a decent general knowledge, but obviously hasn't read the wiki. You can ask me stuff and I'll give an indication of your IC knowledge.

Assume that you actually get to these places, not that you get blown off course and land in Northrend or something. Also assume that you'll be staying in the broad area of these locations for a reasonable time. For example, in this previous arc we were in the Durotar/Barrens area, with an extended patch of time at Dreadmist. These are arc locations, not stepping stones, though if you want you could travel somewhere after the arc, or possibly during it if relevant.

If you want anyone in particular to come with you note that, Scorn is the only guaranteed companion, however others are either interested in particular places or might be sent for various reasons. For example, Sorek+aspirants+Keldran the Necrolyte would all be interested or ordered to the Lordaeron mission. Kartha and Vark might come too for their own reasons, Vok'fon might even be interested if you noted the Amani were around in that area, the visiting of which would fall under the general 'troll stuff' motivation Vok'fon has.

Also consider what sort of amenities might be found in these various locations and missions. The Scarlet option wouldn't have many opportunities to learn shaman stuff because there wouldn't be many shaman about, but there would be paladins and mages guaranteed.

No moratorium on voting, but discussion highly encouraged.

For this vote you may vote for more than option and express an interest in multiple options if you want. I don't know how the SV counter will count this but I'll just do it manually if necessary. Voting will be open for a couple of days.
 
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Oh and it hasn't opened the voting properly on this one. Hm.

Oh well I'll just answer stuff standby

And it turns out I'm actually only quoting one person so hey there @Doomed Wombat :D

I think you maybe misremembering things slightly.
Must admit, I've only read the wiki page, that seemed to imply it was 2 on 1, but oh well.
Frankly I'm astounded the fel is being treated so casually,
But honour is exactly the sort of thing that the fel is very good at twisting back on itself.
we currently lack our connection to the elements due to our disrupted emotions
So you've basically answered yourself here. I do indeed thing Grok would refuse it, and I'm not surprised that's the way the vote went, but I think there's been enough interest previously and Feldad is of course lurking about pushing it that there should at least be a choice here. I'm not pushing it as the author, but I'm definitely presenting particular characters as pushing it. Sesk and Ishi are especially unreliable sources for example.

As for treating it casually, the orcs in general are a remarkably flexible people. They treat honour with great flexibility and adapt it to whatever murderous leader they've got on any given day and that goes to other things as well. Grok has grown up among demonologists so he's more open than he would normally be, just as if you'd picked Shadowmoon you'd be more open to void magic which people generally go away from.


On the broader topic, I think I'm going to let myself be won over by my Devil's advocate side.
A nice cogent argument there so good job. Also didn't know there was a CK2 mod. I imagine that's a wild ride.
 
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[x] The Merchant Coast

I want to have Grok go and expand his horizons a bit more. So far, he's only known the Horde and some not so friendly Kul Tirans. Getting to visit Theramore would be a good experience for him to make some friends on the Alliance side, plus maybe make some good contacts for an eventual journey to the eastern kingdoms.
 
Slightly altered the merchant coast action to imply shattered hand skullduggery which was my intention but something I'd forgotten to mention properly
 
Yu-huuu, time to decide the campaign for the 2nd chapter! Gotta review the options...
It reminds me a bit of Star Wars' Knights of the Old Republic 2, when you can travel to Onderon/Dxun, Nar Shaddaa, Korriban etc. With the difference that we do not have to visit *all* the locations in question and the plot is more flexible
 
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Grumbles.

I wish we could be in more than one place at once :p

Anyway, broadly speaking we are an exile so I think things like go east are non-viable. I'll see if I can think of anything, but for now Scarlet Crusade and the merchant's coast are my preferences.

I am curious about companions, @FractiousDay to check can we try to convince people to come with us, as that's the impression I'm getting from the options.

As for Amenities

[ ] The Scarlet Crusade
Holy light, mages, paladins, priests, necromancy oh my.

Shamanism, warlockery, drudaism?

[ ] The Bloody Thorns
Blademastering, but yeesh.

[ ] The Merchant Coast
Well it is the Merchant coast, so potentially a whole lot of stuff. Its also where Jania lives as well as Aggewyn (theoretically) and she brought quite a few members of the silver hand with her as well.

Debatably its where we can get access to the largest range of things.

That said I am worried at the implication that the Shattered Hand is being sent there...please let it just be for friendly neighbourhood spying that everyone does.

Loa, shamanism? Blood Magic?? I do like Bowansamdi.

[ ] The Broken Isles
Oh boy. Mystery box option I hadn't considered at all, but fel to the max, potentially a ton of arcane too if you can speak really old night elf.
 
[X] The Broken Isles

Start with a vote, and then write up denser thoughts in a later post.

But yeah, pretty happy with how things are turning out. Its nice that we do have a plot in for Stranglethorn, though I do not really want to risk being sucked into Zandalari politics. That way seems madness, and while Loa are cool I am not sure thats an arc I want.

So The Broken Isles for More Orcish nonsense, exploring magic, fighting naga. Coming back to Orgrimmar to drop off a clan then leaving back into "exile" would be hilarious too.

"Hey Thrall, sorry man, just dropping the kids off. I'll be right out, but you know how it is. Turn around once and they are off starting wars."

[see several small bands of glowering grunts]

"Please just leave" says Thrall, rubbing his temples.
 
[Write in] The Wide World
Idea

Quel'Thalas: The once mighty high elves were devestated by the scourge and were renowned as some of the most knowlegeable wizards in the world. They have withdrawn from the world following the scourge's attack, but the rumours you have heard are grim. Go see to them and render what aid you can as one with a mutual hatred of the scourge.

Coming back to Orgrimmar to drop off a clan then leaving back into "exile" would be hilarious too.
IMO if we wanna do that go big with the black rock clan :p

Anyway, I for one wish to get away from orks for a bit, they are a silly frustrating people. I wish to be frustrated by other people for a bit :D
 
And now to continue navel gazing about the metaphysics of magical energies.

Of course, it amplifies the traits most in line with it's own chaotic and destructive nature preferentially to the ones that would keep such character flaws in check. It increase bloodlust more than will power, ambition more than vision, and potency over prudence.

Fel strengthens you but it strengthens parts of you that are problematic more than the parts that keep those problematic parts in check. To use fel safely would require awareness of one's flaws and a willingness to wrestle with them constantly.

As far as the way Blizzard seems to structure their universe, Fel seems to be more of the entropy side to balance with Arcane's pure mentally driven energy. I would call it Order, but its really not. The mana mutants and things speak to that.

So yeah, I also think a full dose of Fel energy mostly strengthens the more immediately energetic and ambitious options. Its how organisms tend to wield entropy after all. They use it to carve big systems into smaller systems they can more easily take advantage of.

So Fel is a blade, and a muscle strengthener. But theres alot of situations when that is not the right tool for the job.

Also sup Wombat, hope you don't mind that I break this into a few parts to respond.

Not exactly a great example seeing as Drek'thar doesn't use them now. Arguably the blademaster we had talking too us right now is a better example, but he's likely using burning blade dark shamanism, especially combined with the link to the elements being emotional on tour end.


Fel does not preclude skill, it precludes being anything but fighting and destroying.

Drek'thar is a practicing Shaman, the one who taught Thrall to be a shaman, and apparently "currently" in modern WoW a decently powerful Shaman/boss for Alteric Valley/the Frostwolves. So I do not think that taking in Fel energy or even being a Warlock precludes other magical traditions from being used. Though I will cede your later point on it being harder to get people to trust you when you have less then stellar magic vibes coming off you. But most traditions are insular, and I always figured our best bet in was making a good solid connection with one or two practitioners rather then seek patronage from a larger organization.

And to reference the bit about entropy from earlier in my post, Fel does a decent chunk of things that are not fighting or destroying. It just tends to more short sighted about that. If it is a force can grant immortality, as seen by most demons, it has to be capable of sustaining/strengthening in some way. Even if it is not the best use for it, nor the best force from the job.

Yeah, but that's not what this is, this is fel steroids not warlock 101. Maybe it'd open it up, but this option does not currently lead to what you are after my man.

Furthermore we want to make a multi tradition thing. Its something Fractious has even linked fanfiction to us for to show what that stuff could do, the thing is I want to try any other type of magic before the fel in that case, because it is the worst magic.

Arguably that would be a more true experience to Grok's version of orcish heritage though. Some shamanism, but with alot of trauma/the universe throwing Fel on them. I am also aware that the Kiss required to be a Warlock as explained by Neeru is different then the raw power of Fel being pumped through. However, Grok is a magically talented individual as far as these things are concerned, so it would be interesting to see what insight could be gleaned. As well, while obviously we all would prefer to have a full enlightened approach to dealing with the Magic radiation in its Fel form, I don't think it's quite as poisoned a chalice as it feels. At least not if later actions are taken to mitigate it, and in that way it acts as a decent plot driver.

On a more Meta Level, FractiousDay has proven a pretty great QM for taking into account conversation/growing organically. So I think that the Quest of finding other ways to deal with Fel corruption and grounding it is just as compelling as finding other pillars and later turning to dabble in Fel using their strength. They are different stories of course, but interesting in their own way.

Incorrect, honor is about holding something in high esteem or doing something that is morally right, but since when was starting unprovoked war multiple times the honourable thing? Well ask any orc and they'd say it 100% is.

What makes Grok reasonably good is that he's got a working sense of empathy wider than a puddle and a general feeling that murdering children is a bad thing unlike say

1. Orgrim doomhammer
2. Blackhand
3. Grommash Hellscream

You know 99% of the greatest orc heroes.

But honour is exactly the sort of thing that the fel is very good at twisting back on itself.

I think we might have had a miscommunication here, as Honor as a platonic ideal, and as a Verb or general Cultural Watchword are different things. At least the way I interpreted the character traits, its Honor as an ideal meaning to hold oneself to pursuing the best course of action regardless of costs. Personal Honor starts from that seed, but when people have to act on it things tend to get muddy from all the other moving parts.

As shown by the Orcish Heros, their heroism was also part and parcel to the time they lived. Aka, the homeworld of the orcs rejecting them, and the only solution that appeared being multiple rounds of bloody invasion and conquest. So naturally, their leaders are people who succeeed at that conquest and war, but also were able to still hold to some interpretations of orcish norms. Doomhammer I'll call out specifically, as his shadow just interacted with FelDad.

He was a grand figure during a pivotal moment. He considered Honor important, and acted on his own sense of it/the grander Horde's sense of it. Whatever that honor was, it was important to him. He also was not as Fel corrupted as Blackhand, so as to show that people not fully blood addled also make alot of seeming dumb/short sighted calls.

Fel can totally turn parts back on eachother. For instance, its influence both helped break Stormwind in the First War, but kept them from settling with their victories. In that case, more moving pieces. Honor in itself is nothing I agree. But I think Grok's particular form of honor, with its more cosmopolitan/all of Azeroth nature is better able to resist the bad bits. Fel makes it easier to murder out groups, Honor can help ensure that your view of the outgroup always remains the same. Good when it is all of thinking sentients, bad if its just orcs.


But that's the thing, the fel actively destroys those attempts at balance and taking the fel is the exactly the kind of thing that makes learning those things harder!

Its almost like people see a fel using warlock and think "may I should not teach them my magical secrets when their mere presence corrupts the air I'm breathing" especially when they're not exaggerating they're right.

This isn't devil's advocacy this is not reading the option.

[X] Refuse the Fel

The only potential benefit to taking fel steroids at this point is that we currently lack our connection to the elements due to our disrupted emotions, but injecting anger juice into our veins is the exact ****ing opposite of fixing that problem!

We need Grok to get back his emotional balance and I'm relatively confident that fel dad would deliberatly sabotage that due to his dislike of the elements.

I don't think Neeru has any issue with the elements at all outside the general anger at someone who's been let down by an outside authority. If we can show we can wield whatever stick is around, I think he would be pretty cool with it. But again, that is an assumption. As is the fact that we would be able to mix with outsiders even with a bit of Fel corruption, but I don't think that is a wild assumption. All it takes is one person to actually not be bigoted, while we are probably working to prove ourselves, to help get past our baggage. We are already the scion of demon clan after all.

As for the balance thing, one big way to train it is to test it. Throwing a force at something will always give rise to a counter force.

Which was my bigger point with the Devil's advocate part. I know my vote wouldn't count, but it starts conversation. Yay democracy :)
 
I am interested in The Broken Isles and in The Golden City as options. I would like to secure Vok'fon as a long term companion to double down on our Troll ties (in the future, if all goes well, we might be able to leverage a Darkspear connection to subvert Thrall's exile without revoking it as some "honored guest of the Darkspear").

This is less of a current matter and more of a long term thought, but loa magic is something I think would be very complimentary to Grok and could provide a replacement for fel empowerment. It's far away, but becoming a Blademaster-Shadow Hunter mix figure could be a thematically fitting build.

Go East and The Merchant Coast are okay options, but I don't know if we want to tie ourselves to those regions for an extended period of time. They're definitely above The Scarlet Crusade option though imo, which looks like the path of most resistance. For the sake of Grok's mental health and the restoration of his elemental connections, I'd really like to avoid The Plaguelands.
 
Drek'thar is a practicing Shaman, the one who taught Thrall to be a shaman, and apparently "currently" in modern WoW a decently powerful Shaman/boss for Alteric Valley/the Frostwolves. So I do not think that taking in Fel energy or even being a Warlock precludes other magical traditions from being used. Though I will cede your later point on it being harder to get people to trust you when you have less then stellar magic vibes coming off you. But most traditions are insular, and I always figured our best bet in was making a good solid connection with one or two practitioners rather then seek patronage from a larger organization.

And to reference the bit about entropy from earlier in my post, Fel does a decent chunk of things that are not fighting or destroying. It just tends to more short sighted about that. If it is a force can grant immortality, as seen by most demons, it has to be capable of sustaining/strengthening in some way. Even if it is not the best use for it, nor the best force from the job.
I didn't say it precluded it, just that Drek'thar wasn't a practising warlock now so wasn't the best example when we've a fel blade master showing off his elemental magic in this very chapter.* I very deliberately did not say that it precluded any other magical traditions by virtue of the fel cept probably the light, if I did I would be wrong by virtue of the Scourge (a force of shadow/decay magic) being a thing created by Kil'jaden.

*On another level Drek'thar was them in sequence rather than simultaneously, going from Shamanism-->Warlock-->Shamanism.

Some traditions are insular, arcane magic for example is not. Theoretically, we could out right pay for a tutor in it and things like the holy light are more than happy to butt into peoples lives whether they like it or not. Druidism is an insular tradition by comparison, but it is one of the traditions most objectively hostile to fel magic.

Then shamanism also grants immortality, since elemental "immortality" and daemon "immortality" follow the exact same rules. Even then its not the best use for it or force for the job no kidding, most of the time stuff like that involves living sacrifices.

Side note, the force that is entropy in the setting is...well decay. I'd argue the fel is corruption, but I think that technically belongs to void magic (which is the Old God's wheel house) which fel does dip into, so I'd say its the mid point of decay and void magic, ending up as a new flavour of bad. I'd support this as the other magics which fel most easily manipulates are both of these, again pointing to the Lich King.

Given that the end goal of 99.9% of its users (just due to sheer size of the burning legion) is the obliteration of all life in the galaxy, I'd say destruction fits, the difference between it and entropic decay being that entropy is a passive force that is, destruction in this case is an active decision directed by a party.

Arguably that would be a more true experience to Grok's version of orcish heritage though. Some shamanism, but with alot of trauma/the universe throwing Fel on them. I am also aware that the Kiss required to be a Warlock as explained by Neeru is different then the raw power of Fel being pumped through. However, Grok is a magically talented individual as far as these things are concerned, so it would be interesting to see what insight could be gleaned. As well, while obviously we all would prefer to have a full enlightened approach to dealing with the Magic radiation in its Fel form, I don't think it's quite as poisoned a chalice as it feels. At least not if later actions are taken to mitigate it, and in that way it acts as a decent plot driver.

On a more Meta Level, FractiousDay has proven a pretty great QM for taking into account conversation/growing organically. So I think that the Quest of finding other ways to deal with Fel corruption and grounding it is just as compelling as finding other pillars and later turning to dabble in Fel using their strength. They are different stories of course, but interesting in their own way.
But that's a thing we're already dealing with, the shamanism vs fel etc. is very much part of Grok's life and always has been.

Magically talented, but I doubt that equates to "I can do fel magic from watching it getting pumped into me."

The problem there is that it alters the personality and I don't know if Grok has a good enough hold on himself to recognise what parts get changed. Like fel does give literal power highs, for a reason.

I agree they are, but when given the option of risking fel corruption vs not I know which one I prefer. Had it been a thing from quest start which we had to deal with then that's another thing.

I think we might have had a miscommunication here, as Honor as a platonic ideal, and as a Verb or general Cultural Watchword are different things. At least the way I interpreted the character traits, its Honor as an ideal meaning to hold oneself to pursuing the best course of action regardless of costs. Personal Honor starts from that seed, but when people have to act on it things tend to get muddy from all the other moving parts.

As shown by the Orcish Heros, their heroism was also part and parcel to the time they lived. Aka, the homeworld of the orcs rejecting them, and the only solution that appeared being multiple rounds of bloody invasion and conquest. So naturally, their leaders are people who succeeed at that conquest and war, but also were able to still hold to some interpretations of orcish norms. Doomhammer I'll call out specifically, as his shadow just interacted with FelDad.

He was a grand figure during a pivotal moment. He considered Honor important, and acted on his own sense of it/the grander Horde's sense of it. Whatever that honor was, it was important to him. He also was not as Fel corrupted as Blackhand, so as to show that people not fully blood addled also make alot of seeming dumb/short sighted calls.

Fel can totally turn parts back on eachother. For instance, its influence both helped break Stormwind in the First War, but kept them from settling with their victories. In that case, more moving pieces. Honor in itself is nothing I agree. But I think Grok's particular form of honor, with its more cosmopolitan/all of Azeroth nature is better able to resist the bad bits. Fel makes it easier to murder out groups, Honor can help ensure that your view of the outgroup always remains the same. Good when it is all of thinking sentients, bad if its just orcs.
Oh yes they fit very well into the Greek mold of heroism, genocides included.

However, I would argue against saying that this came entirely out of their homeworld rejecting them. Ner'zul was the first Shaman to loose his powers, but it only started in earnest after they drank the blood of Manaroth and launched their "path of glory" against the Draeni something they were already preparing to do long before Gul'dan offered the blood. That was when the world flat out rejected them.

Anyway as for Grok's cosmopolitan honour, I fear the same could be said of Illidan. Grok does mirror young Illidan in some ways, talented, power hungry in persuit of a goal, and wanting to save the world/people, but hell's paving stones and all that.

I don't think Neeru has any issue with the elements at all outside the general anger at someone who's been let down by an outside authority. If we can show we can wield whatever stick is around, I think he would be pretty cool with it. But again, that is an assumption. As is the fact that we would be able to mix with outsiders even with a bit of Fel corruption, but I don't think that is a wild assumption. All it takes is one person to actually not be bigoted, while we are probably working to prove ourselves, to help get past our baggage. We are already the scion of demon clan after all.

As for the balance thing, one big way to train it is to test it. Throwing a force at something will always give rise to a counter force.

Which was my bigger point with the Devil's advocate part. I know my vote wouldn't count, but it starts conversation. Yay democracy :)
So far he's seemed pretty scornful of them at most everyturn, the one exception being very recent when he seems to be trying to go out of his way to get back into our good graces. I think he certainly wouldn't be distraught if we use it, but his biases have been on full display from the start and while his are understandable, they're not the best.

Thing is most people even within the horde likely won't know that at least not until very recently. Burning blade's never been a big or out there clan for numerous reasons. I'd assume that outside of the horde, and even within the horde (the non orcs in it like the Tauren) most could name the big clans, so Warsong, Blackrock and Frostwolves, but get onto the smaller ones and not so much. However, I imagine most magic users can detect the fel. Ironically with almost all adult orcs having fel in them to some extent an orc who lacks it may actually have more chances with say humans who remember the first and second wars.* Huh.

*Side note I just remember Grok's meant to be fifeteen, so yeah. Doing ok so far I guess.

I'd say your vote did count and yeah fair nuff you did succeed :)
 
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I am curious about companions, @FractiousDay to check can we try to convince people to come with us, as that's the impression I'm getting from the options.
yes you can, some are guaranteed, others less so. Vok'fon isn't interested in stuff that doesn't include trolls, Vark isn't nice interested in stuff that doesn't include battles or glory. Sorek will happily come to Lordaeron but wouldn't be interested in going to do troll stuff. Additionally you might get people sent with you, such as Feldad dispatching certain people as experts or Kartha coming along to sort of spy on you for the SH
Well it is the Merchant coast
keep in mind you don't have loads of money because the orcs don't use that much, as such you might be forced into mercenary work or similar, or maybe helping out those nice shattered hand people!
I'll say no to this, for the same reason you can't just go to Stormwind. However, if you want you can go to play with the Scarlets and then go to visit the elves during that.
They're definitely above The Scarlet Crusade option though imo, which looks like the path of most resistance. For the sake of Grok's mental health and the restoration of his elemental connections, I'd really like to avoid The Plaguelands.
Really? How come?
Given that the end goal of 99.9% of its users (just due to sheer size of the burning legion) is the obliteration of all life in the galaxy,
I find it amusing that they're the most evil faction but they have their whole 'vs old gods' stuff which is quite altruistic
 
yes you can, some are guaranteed, others less so. Vok'fon isn't interested in stuff that doesn't include trolls, Vark isn't nice interested in stuff that doesn't include battles or glory. Sorek will happily come to Lordaeron but wouldn't be interested in going to do troll stuff. Additionally you might get people sent with you, such as Feldad dispatching certain people as experts or Kartha coming along to sort of spy on you for the SH
mmm... if I were to make an argument to bring everyone along then I'd probably go for Scarlet Crusade.

Vark, gets to fight the undead.

Sorek would go to Lorderan already.

Vok'fon could be interested in the Amani Trolls. (mmm is the night elf-troll connection known ATM? MMM.)

Kartha's already well...

Though speaking of companions I am surprised that Scorn is sticking with us despite all this.

keep in mind you don't have loads of money because the orcs don't use that much, as such you might be forced into mercenary work or similar, or maybe helping out those nice shattered hand people!
Alternatively, we could always try some spelunking :p who knows what you might find in a cave...like say the lair of a dragon who currently is not home.

Anyway yeah more theoretically we can find most things in that, practically is another matter.

I find it amusing that they're the most evil faction but they have their whole 'vs old gods' stuff which is quite altruistic
Eh cool motive still omnicide.

I'll say no to this, for the same reason you can't just go to Stormwind. However, if you want you can go to play with the Scarlets and then go to visit the elves during that.
Fair. The ballsy play would be Northrend then.

Also a point timeline wise, is "has the scarlet crusade just started or no?"

The answer to that question has some very interesting implications. Alexandros is one of the original paladins of the silver hand and a veteran of the first and second wars, as well as his personality not being fleshed out, so he could well not want an orc around, or he might be practical. If he's dead then we're liable to need to find Tirion, or to try and find proof of treachery to merk Balnazar ASAP. We do that quickly then we could potentially salvage the crusades members like Whitemane.
 
I for one wish to get away from orks for a bit, they are a silly frustrating people. I wish to be frustrated by other people for a bit :D
Seconded^^
loa magic is something I think would be very complimentary to Grok and could provide a replacement for fel empowerment. It's far away, but becoming a Blademaster-Shadow Hunter mix figure could be a thematically fitting build.
The Trolls know both shamanism and stealth, interesting directions. Might as well learn from the best? I don't see any other compelling element, though.

1) The Merchant Coast means being mired in the local Game of Thrones. Maybe the Shattered Hand wants to cause a civil war, to weaken a threatening entity? The idea of going to Theramore, and inadvertently breaking all the delicate vases set up by local schemers and the Shattered Hand both, is... intriguing. Training opportunities: diplomacy, scholarship, and any passing mage. An agency conflict may be found here, the Shattered Hand and the (arguable) good of the Horde vs. the good of the region.

2) The Scarlet Crusade: apparently there are humans in a grim setting, fighting to take back their land against the Undead. And a mystery: what happened in Alterac? Making an expedition there with Sorek to investigate Jubei'thos is interesting. It probably carries the greatest chance of meeting him, but isn't this part of the fun?

3) The Golden City means going to live with the Zandalari Trolls. I have no idea what their issues are, or why we should care. The training opportunities should be very good though: shamanism in the great swamp jungle, stealth and hunting. Time for elemental philosophy and hunting shadowcats, I guess.

4) The Broken Isles: mystery upon mysteries. More orcs though, as said above I have seen enough internal clan politics for now, and would rather interact with someone else

I'm undecided for now, as usual, between 1 and 2.
 
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1) The Merchant Coast means being mired in the local Game of Thrones. Maybe the Shattered Hand wants to cause a civil war, to weaken a threatening entity? The idea of going to Theramore, and inadvertently breaking all the delicate vases set up by local schemers and the Shattered Hand both, is... intriguing. Training opportunities: diplomacy, scholarship, and any passing mage. An agency conflict may be found here, the Shattered Hand and the (arguable) good of the Horde vs. the good of the region.
We may also get embroiled in other things, see Onyxia's lair being located there, Aegywynn and potentially Varien (assuming again he's not dead.)

I'd also be concerned if Thrall is sending people to undermine Jania...

I have no idea what their issues are, or why we should care.
Ancient Trollish empire, very hierarchical, very troll supremacist, but also very strong. Closing in on a civil war.

4) The Broken Isles: mystery upon mysteries. More orcs though, as said above I have seen enough internal clan politics for now, and would rather interact with someone else
Tomb of Sargaras is also there, so bare that in mind.
 
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