I find the idea that some level 3-5 guys with fancy gear and template can stand up to several CR 15 creatures really weird.

Like, two to three hits bring down a Praetorian Initiate, the Golems have enough AB to hit for sure, that even without the Prismatic Surge adding a random chance to make a certain kill.

If these golems then then also have caster-support and someone with a reasonable skill in combat directing them this should be a totally one-sided slaughter in which barely a Praetorian even finds the chance to short his launcher at a Golem, nevermind at the mages standing back from the fight.
A nitpick: they're level 3 guys with a heavy-duty Template, so it's more like level 6. And they massively outnumber the foe, who are CR 15 but lack any kind of exotic ability to avoid dying to chip damage. This is the classic "high-level fighter dies gloriously fighting an orc horde" scenario, because in D&D AC doesn't scale that well so sufficiently motivated mooks can always kill pure martial PCs.
Yeah, I expect a large percentage of our Praetorians to be dead. On the other hand, this is a fight in a large room with multiple entrances, so as long as our guys kill the enemy casters first, they have a chance to win. Well, I say "they", but it's really "the lucky guys who'll still be alive when the Golems are killing one per full attack each turn".
In theory the Praetorians could use their numbers to win simply by cycling in and out and healing up in between turns on the frontline. In practice, the enemy has casters (presumably with decent wands to give cover and healing to the Golems), probably has pre-prepared traps or enchantments in the room itself, and can use tactics too (even just "have the Golems surround the Praetorians" would be a huge help here).
 
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For example, there is zero reason for the Praetori not to keep firing Liquid Ice at the golems, so they are permanently staggered. That alone is a massive debuff.
It takes an action to do so, preventing them from doing anything else useful that round.

While the Lannisters can probably just use Wands of Fireball to counter the effect and quicken the golems while also harming any nearby Praetorians.
Meanwhile the Praetorians need a natural 20 to even hit a Golem.

This is a killing field that was obviously planned by an enemy that knows what magic can do and what it can't, so I don't expect our guys to have the total tactical superiority needed to just move and shoot as they like while the enemies stand around and look stupid.
 
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A nitpick: they're level 3 guys with a heavy-duty Template, so it's more like level 6. And they massively outnumber the foe, who are CR 15 but lack any kind of exotic ability to avoid dying to chip damage. This is the classic "high-level fighter dies gloriously fighting an orc horde" scenario, because in D&D AC doesn't scale that well so sufficiently motivated mooks can always kill pure martial PCs.
Yeah, I expect a large percentage of our Praetorians to be dead. On the other hand, this is a fight in a large room with multiple entrances, so as long as our guys kill the enemy casters first, they have a chance to win. Well, I say "they", but it's really "the lucky guys who'll still be alive when the Golems are killing one per full attack each turn".
In theory the Praetorians could use their numbers to win simply by cycling in and out and healing up in between turns on the frontline. In practice, the enemy has casters (presumably with decent wands to give cover and healing to the Golems), probably has pre-prepared traps or enchantments in the room itself, and can use tactics too (even just "have the Golems surround the Praetorians" would be a huge help here).
That presumes that the Praetori are dumbasses and rush into melee with the Slowed golems while ignoring the casters.

The problem with the golems is that they too suffer from Big-Stompy-Monster-itis, which is a rather terminal diseases when facing a well prepared enemy that has versatile options to exploit weaknesses.
It takes an action to do so, preventing them from doing anything else useful that round.

While the Lannisters can probably just use Wands of Fireball to counter the effect and quicken the golems while also harming any nearby Praetorians.
Meanwhile the Praeorians need a natural 20 to even hit a Golem.

This is a killing field that was obviously planned by an enemy that knows what magic can do and what it can't, so I don't expect our guys to have the total tactical superiority needed to just move and shoot as they like while the enemies stand around and look stupid.
Again. You are for some reason assuming that the Praetori are idiots and focus solely on the golems instead of killing the casters with explosives.
And it is enough for one of the Praetori to hit a golem with Liquid Ice to slow it, not something everyone has to spend their actions on.

This is mass combat, not 1 vs 1 matches.
 
The Praetorians have many advantages, and if they start by killing the Golden Shields at range things could go well for them. On the other hand, I'd bet you anything that it won't be that easy to gank the mage (Abrupt Jaunt alone could serve, here!).
EDIT: @Azel, it sounds like the Golems had surprise, had a terrain advantage, and managed to force melee well enough. "Kill them from range and gank the caster first" is a good strategy, but it doesn't work so well when the seemingly inanimate statue erupts into melee (or just barges through the wall or something). Your proposed strategy is great, but it presumes that the GS fail to choose the field of engagement and actually got LoS on the mages.

But if we walk in and they've beaten three Gold Golems with magical support on prepared ground while taking low casualties, I'm going to start asking questions like "how the fuck does high magic warfare work" and "let's use our Praetorians to conquer the Plane of Water, because we've seen what their elite infantry looks like and it sure can't beat this".
 
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That presumes that the Praetori are dumbasses and rush into melee with the Slowed golems while ignoring the casters.

The problem with the golems is that they too suffer from Big-Stompy-Monster-itis, which is a rather terminal diseases when facing a well prepared enemy that has versatile options to exploit weaknesses.

Again. You are for some reason assuming that the Praetori are idiots and focus solely on the golems instead of killing the casters with explosives.
And it is enough for one of the Praetori to hit a golem with Liquid Ice to slow it, not something everyone has to spend their actions on.

This is mass combat, not 1 vs 1 matches.
And that's a assuming that the GOlden Shields haven't set up a basic spell like Wind Wall to protect them from physical projectiles (bombs still have to be thrown and launchers too use solid shot, not pure magic projectiles, right?)
 
Praetorians should have opened up with a salvo of Fungal Stun Vials and explosive Launcher munitions, along with a couple dozen Elementals just for a start.

Depending on RNG, some Confused Golden Shields mages could have turned their spells and wands on their own comrades.
 
The Praetorians have many advantages, and if they start by killing the Golden Shields at range things could go well for them. On the other hand, I'd bet you anything that it won't be that easy to gank the mage (Abrupt Jaunt alone could serve, here!).
But if we walk in and they've beaten three Gold Golems with magical support on prepared ground while taking low casualties, I'm going to start asking questions like "how the fuck does high magic warfare work" and "let's use our Praetorians to conquer the Plane of Water, because we've seen what their elite infantry looks like and it sure can't beat this".

Keep in mind that a lot of what makes a very high end Praetorian like what is about to fight in that throne room is gear, really expensive gear and some of that is even single use.
 
And that's a assuming that the GOlden Shields haven't set up a basic spell like Wind Wall to protect them from physical projectiles (bombs still have to be thrown and launchers too use solid shot, not pure magic projectiles, right?)
If they were preparing for enemies like the Praetorians, that would make sense, but they would be idiots to prepare for muggle projectiles when they're expecting Viserys to Kool-Aid man through the wall, probably in Dragon form.
 
The Praetorians have many advantages, and if they start by killing the Golden Shields at range things could go well for them. On the other hand, I'd bet you anything that it won't be that easy to gank the mage (Abrupt Jaunt alone could serve, here!).
EDIT: @Azel, it sounds like the Golems had surprise, had a terrain advantage, and managed to force melee well enough. "Kill them from range and gank the caster first" is a good strategy, but it doesn't work so well when the seemingly inanimate statue erupts into melee (or just barges through the wall or something). Your proposed strategy is great, but it presumes that the GS chose the field of engagement and actually got LoS on the mages.

But if we walk in and they've beaten three Gold Golems with magical support on prepared ground while taking low casualties, I'm going to start asking questions like "how the fuck does high magic warfare work" and "let's use our Praetorians to conquer the Plane of Water, because we've seen what their elite infantry looks like and it sure can't beat this".
Then you fall back and regroup. Or maneuver around. The throne room is huge, so it's not as if they are constrained by a narrow passage. They have all the space to move around and that makes numeric superiority extremely powerful.

They don't have any meaningful terrain advantage.
And that's a assuming that the GOlden Shields haven't set up a basic spell like Wind Wall to protect them from physical projectiles (bombs still have to be thrown and launchers too use solid shot, not pure magic projectiles, right?)
Wind Wall wouldn't do much against Launcher ammo, since we explicitly use siege-ammo sized projectiles. At best, they would have a 30% miss chance and redirecting explosives to the ceiling in a closed room means that you a) likely still are in the splash zone and b) might just have caused a few flagstones to fall on your head.

But this is largely a pointless argument. You don't want them to succeed, so nothing I say will ever satisfy you.
 
Praetorians should have opened up with a salvo of Fungal Stun Vials and explosive Launcher munitions, along with a couple dozen Elementals just for a start.

Depending on RNG, some Confused Golden Shields mages could have turned their spells and wands on their own comrades.
That's the best case scenario, which assumes that the GS are just standing there in the open (no wards, no Wind Wall, no being in smaller groups in side corridors...). The worst case scenario is "a statue erupts through the wall, already in melee, and starts murdering Praetorians. Meanwhile it's getting magical support from the other side of the hole".
 
That's the best case scenario, which assumes that the GS are just standing there in the open (no wards, no Wind Wall, no being in smaller groups in side corridors...). The worst case scenario is "a statue erupts through the wall, already in melee, and starts murdering Praetorians. Meanwhile it's getting magical support from the other side of the hole".
Breaking through castle walls takes much more strength then the golems have and again, they are explicitly fighting within the spacious throne room.
 
Then you fall back and regroup. Or maneuver around. The throne room is huge, so it's not as if they are constrained by a narrow passage. They have all the space to move around and that makes numeric superiority extremely powerful.
Of course. They're not stupid, they have summons to tarpit the things, and they'll probably notice that they can't beat it in melee after a round or two (or someone in the squad will make a Knowledge check). I expect the Praetorians to win here. But I don't expect them to cleanly wrap this up with only 3 casualties, or whatever.

Breaking through castle walls takes much more strength then the golems have and again, they are explicitly fighting within the spacious throne room.
Fair enough. Still, they're also explicitly fighting in a place where pillars collapse on top of you (which is where I got the "golems came in through the walls" idea in the first place). Although that could be our own heavy use of explosives going wrong, too.
 
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Of course. They're not stupid, they have summons to tarpit the things, and they'll probably notice that they can't beat it in melee after a round or two (or someone in the squad will make a Knowledge check). I expect the Praetorians to win here. But I don't expect them to cleanly wrap this up with only 3 casualties, or whatever.
Well, you make it sound more like you expect 70% losses or something, which would be ludicrous. If a battle went that badly, they would be better served to have someone do a suicide rush against the golem with a few bombs to collapse the roof on it or make it break through a hole in the floor.
 
a few bombs to collapse the roof on it or make it break through a hole in the floor
Ah, yes, the good old "beat a CR 15 foe using Grease" strategy. Works best with a pit trap, or something that can deal enough HP damage to the ground. For extra humiliation of the golem crafter, take a recording of the thing trying to get up without ranks in Balance!
 
Well, you make it sound more like you expect 70% losses or something, which would be ludicrous. If a battle went that badly, they would be better served to have someone do a suicide rush against the golem with a few bombs to collapse the roof on it or make it break through a hole in the floor.
I expect there will probably be at least a couple dozen losses, if not more, but most of those would probably come in the first few rounds of combat, before they work out a good strategy and can start whittling down the mage support.

If the Praetorians have some Dawnbloom Leshys with them, losses should be much less, though. I can't remember if any of those were assigned to take part in the assault on King's Landing or not.
 
But this is largely a pointless argument. You don't want them to succeed, so nothing I say will ever satisfy you
Well, yes.

Ultimatly I think that a good build and overpriced gear is unlikely to cover the gap between CR 5 and CR 15 creatures, even if it could, the fact that the enemy has real mages rather than just their equipment in the room gives them greater flexibility and more ways to counter any tricks that can be used to level the field.

At most the weaker but numerous force could win by attrition, but not before losses are so high that any sensible commander would retreat and wait for PCs to solve the issue.
 
Well, yes.

Ultimatly I think that a good build and overpriced gear is unlikely to cover the gap between CR 5 and CR 15 creatures, even if it could, the fact that the enemy has real mages rather than just their equipment in the room gives them greater flexibility and more ways to counter any tricks that can be used to level the field.

At most the weaker but numerous force could win by attrition, but not before losses are so high that any sensible commander would retreat and wait for PCs to solve the issue.
But... this is mechanically incorrect? You are making several base assumptions beyond what CR 15 creature was linked and citing that as an example of why the Praetorians, which we have all of the information on, are doomed to abject and ignoble failure, useless to do anything and a waste of the money spent on them.

How about we just watch how the encounter plays out, since this entire discussion is completely and totally played out?
 
Well, yes.

Ultimatly I think that a good build and overpriced gear is unlikely to cover the gap between CR 5 and CR 15 creatures, even if it could, the fact that the enemy has real mages rather than just their equipment in the room gives them greater flexibility and more ways to counter any tricks that can be used to level the field.

At most the weaker but numerous force could win by attrition, but not before losses are so high that any sensible commander would retreat and wait for PCs to solve the issue.
I'd agree in principle, but this is Tywin. He doesn't have real mages, he has level 5 mooks with wands. His tactical flexibility is shit, it's going to be all about who has the best-chosen gear.
Somehow, I think we'll win that fight.
Well, Golem excepted, those are an amazing purchase that could seriously maul our guys. Look at those stats! 30 AC, big bag of HP, high saves, high DR, both melee and ranged attacks which basically auto-hit and could instagib our guys each round if the dice are unkind. It's just that I expect our support to beat their support once they get LoS, and then we'll be repeatedly slamming the Golems with blast chip damage + Liquid Ice while we tarpit them with Elementals (and possibly sacrificial melee Praetorians if things get bad).

In principle, I'd say that CR 15 should beat a CR 5 horde. It's just that Golems have no healing, limited mobility, and our forces have a huge pile of blast weapons. So I expect large casualties at first, which will then taper off once our guys get a good rythm in. Especially as Golems are quite stupid once their handlers have died, and one of the best ways to kill mages is "throw lots of reflex saves at them to deplete their HP". Sure the GS will hide, but once they have to poke their heads out to buff the golems or do area control, I expect our guys to make them pay each time.
 
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Well, yes.

Ultimatly I think that a good build and overpriced gear is unlikely to cover the gap between CR 5 and CR 15 creatures, even if it could, the fact that the enemy has real mages rather than just their equipment in the room gives them greater flexibility and more ways to counter any tricks that can be used to level the field.

At most the weaker but numerous force could win by attrition, but not before losses are so high that any sensible commander would retreat and wait for PCs to solve the issue.
Praetorians all have minor Spell Resistance, which will mitigate almost all direct magical attacks against them, at least those coming from wands, along with very solid Fire Resistance, especially when they boost it using their Heart of Flame ability (Fireball being the most common wand-based AoE spell ever).

Of however many Praetorians there are in the throne room, I expect a large number of the 200 sent to the keep, every one of them has at least one Elemental Gem that will let them Summon a Large Elemental for 11 rounds. That's at a minimum a straight doubling of their numbers. Most of those won't be a huge hindrance to the Golems, though the Earth Elementals can certainly rank some hits and serve as meat(ish) shields, but they provide more targets for the dumb Golems and will force any mages to deal with, further distracting them at worst or outright killing them at best.

Anyway, there will be losses, perhaps even heavy losses, but they should succeed through the power of teamwork and a fuckton of gear.
 
If it wasn't for the fact that, as it was pointed out, this was a trap then I would love to take control of their constructs and turn them against the Lannister mages.
 
Praetorians all have minor Spell Resistance, which will mitigate almost all direct magical attacks against them, at least those coming from wands, along with very solid Fire Resistance, especially when they boost it using their Heart of Flame ability (Fireball being the most common wand-based AoE spell ever).
I don't expect the GS to directly attack them unless they've got nothing better to do. If they have any sense their biggest job should be wrecking our formations and LoS (Solid Fog?), healing the golems (Summon Clockwork Mender swarm? Repair Serious Damage?) and protecting themselves. If any of them are stupid enough to spend an action throwing a fireball, they deserves he incoming Launcher-based retaliatory explosives.
Although I might expect them to waste actions casting Dispel Magic on our leaders or whatever :rofl:
 
--[] Mage Killing Strategy:
---[] If they put up defensive spells that diver launcher ammunition to a degree that attack by it is unfeasible, use Fire and Air elementals summoned by gem to bog them down in melee while advancing on their position to engage them in melee.
---[] If not or if the protection can be bypassed by maneuvering, use Fungal Stund vials to stun them and if that has no effect, fire Explosive Packs at them before closing into melee.
--[] Golem Killing Strategy:
---[] After the golem is Slowed by Liquid Ice and preferably already damaged by Explosive Pack or Launcher Bolts, summon a Earth or Air elemental behind it to keep it occupied and to prepare flanking.
---[] A four person group made up ad-hoc from the more experienced squad leaders will charge the golem:
----[] A nearby Praetori not participating in the charge uses Encouraging Roar to grant them a +2 Morale Bonus on ATK and DMG.
----[] As a Swift Action, activate Brave Gambit, gaining a +3 Luck Bonus on the attack roll.
----[] As a Full-Round Action, activate Panthera on the Hunt for a +2 Circumstance Bonus for the attack and damage roll while ignoring threatened areas.
----[] Use the Primal Warrior stance to gain +1 Competence Bonus to ATK and DMG, and treat his weapon as 2 size categories larger.
----[] Use Power Attack and Shock Trooper to take a -6 to AC while boosting damage by +18.
----[] Due to Distracting Charge, every Praetori who resolves his attack after another charging Praetori has already hit the golem gets a stacking +2 Untyped bonus to his ATK for every Praetori that has already hit.
----[] Due to the elemental providing flanking, they get a +2 Flanking bonus to ATK.
----[] ATK: 6 (BAB) + 5 (STR) + 4 (Enhancement - Magic Army) + 2 (Charge) + 2 (Circumstance) + 3 (Luck) + 1 (Competence) + 2 (Morale) + 2 (Flanking) = 27
----[] DMG: 3d8 (Base with Primal Warrior) + 5 (STR) + 4 (Enhancement) + 18 (Power Attack) + 2 (Morale) + 2 (Circumstance) + 1 (Competence) = 3d8 + 32
---[] Once they are in melee, assuming the golem was not destroyed by the charge, they use their Dual Boost ability to initiate both Scarlet Eyes Perception and Regal Blade while dumping as much ATK by Power Attack as possible to maximize their damage while resolving their next attack against Touch AC.

Golem AC is 30 and they have 156 HP. The charge deals on average 44 HP of damage, so if all of them hit, the golem is toast right then and there.

Numbers are slightly worse for the rank and file, but those should better stick with the Launchers or assault the casters.
 
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