--[] Mage Killing Strategy:
---[] If they put up defensive spells that diver launcher ammunition to a degree that attack by it is unfeasible, use Fire and Air elementals summoned by gem to bog them down in melee while advancing on their position to engage them in melee.
---[] If not or if the protection can be bypassed by maneuvering, use Fungal Stund vials to stun them and if that has no effect, fire Explosive Packs at them before closing into melee.
--[] Golem Killing Strategy:
---[] After the golem is Slowed by Liquid Ice and preferably already damaged by Explosive Pack or Launcher Bolts, summon a Earth or Air elemental behind it to keep it occupied and to prepare flanking.
---[] A four person group made up ad-hoc from the more experienced squad leaders will charge the golem:
----[] A nearby Praetori not participating in the charge uses Encouraging Roar to grant them a +2 Morale Bonus on ATK and DMG.
----[] As a Swift Action, activate Brave Gambit, gaining a +3 Luck Bonus on the attack roll.
----[] As a Full-Round Action, activate Panthera on the Hunt for a +2 Circumstance Bonus for the attack and damage roll while ignoring threatened areas.
----[] Use the Primal Warrior stance to gain +1 Competence Bonus to ATK and DMG, and treat his weapon as 2 size categories larger.
----[] Use Power Attack and Shock Trooper to take a -6 to AC while boosting damage by +18.
----[] Due to Distracting Charge, every Praetori who resolves his attack after another charging Praetori has already hit the golem gets a stacking +2 Untyped bonus to his ATK for every Praetori that has already hit.
----[] Due to the elemental providing flanking, they get a +2 Flanking bonus to ATK.
----[] ATK: 6 (BAB) + 5 (STR) + 4 (Enhancement - Magic Army) + 2 (Charge) + 2 (Circumstance) + 3 (Luck) + 1 (Competence) + 2 (Morale) + 2 (Flanking) = 27
----[] DMG: 3d8 (Base with Primal Warrior) + 5 (STR) + 4 (Enhancement) + 18 (Power Attack) + 2 (Morale) + 2 (Circumstance) + 1 (Competence) = 3d8 + 32
---[] Once they are in melee, assuming the golem was not destroyed by the charge, they use their Dual Boost ability to initiate both Scarlet Eyes Perception and Regal Blade while dumping as much ATK by Power Attack as possible to maximize their damage while resolving their next attack against Touch AC.

Golem AC is 30 and they have 156 HP. The charge deals on average 44 HP of damage, so if all of them hit, the golem is toast right then and there.

Numbers are slightly worse for the rank and file, but those should better stick with the Launchers or assault the casters.
Fungal Stun Vials don't just Stun their victims, they can also Confuse them. The Confuse AoE is actually much larger than the Stun AoE, so far more likely to catch enemies in the effect.
Fungal Stun Vial: When broken, a fungal stun vial releases a flash of bright blue light in a 10-foot radius and dim light in a 20-foot radius. All creatures within the flash area must make a Will save (DC 20). Creatures that fail are stunned for 1d2 rounds if they're in the area of bright light, or are confused for 1 round if in the area of dim light.
A Confused mage with a wand could do anything, up to mistakenly attacking their own allies. They could even order a Golem to do something stupid.

The Praetorians also have Tanglefoot Bags as part of their regular kit. The Liquid Ice munitions can Entangle the Golems, too, but Tanglefoot Bags can fully immobilize them for a short time.
Tanglefoot Bag
A tanglefoot bag is a small sack filled with tar, resin, and other sticky substances. When you throw a tanglefoot bag at a creature (as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet), the bag comes apart and goo bursts out, entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient upon exposure to air. An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor, unable to move. Even on a successful save, it can move only at half speed. Huge or larger creatures are unaffected by a tanglefoot bag. A flying creature is not stuck to the floor, but it must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be unable to fly (assuming it uses its wings to fly) and fall to the ground. A tanglefoot bag does not function underwater.

A creature that is glued to the floor (or unable to fly) can break free by making a DC 17 Strength check or by dealing 15 points of damage to the goo with a slashing weapon. A creature trying to scrape goo off itself, or another creature assisting, does not need to make an attack roll; hitting the goo is automatic, after which the creature that hit makes a damage roll to see how much of the goo was scraped off. Once free, the creature can move (including flying) at half speed. If the entangled creature attempts to cast a spell, it must make concentration check with a DC of 15 + the spell's level or be unable to cast the spell. The goo becomes brittle and fragile after 2d4 rounds, cracking apart and losing its effectiveness. An application of universal solvent to a stuck creature dissolves the alchemical goo immediately.
Even if the Golem is only stuck in place for one round, that's a lot of maneuvering time for the Praetorians.
 
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@Goldfish What would we have to do to get a Haste effect on all of our Praetorians?

Optionally, @Azel, if the above isn't really viable beyond "single encounter" methods, could Praetorian Clerics maybe have a build centered around Persistomancy themselves? This way they could give a number of persistent spell effects to squads of Praetorians.

Though I'm not sure what level they would have to be on average to pull that off. Maybe only veteran squads would be able to pull off such a scheme.

We could also go hyper-expense and Diamond Dust permanency Channel Vigor on each of them...
 
@Goldfish What would we have to do to get a Haste effect on all of our Praetorians?

Optionally, @Azel, if the above isn't really viable beyond "single encounter" methods, could Praetorian Clerics maybe have a build centered around Persistomancy themselves? This way they could give a number of persistent spell effects to squads of Praetorians.

Though I'm not sure what level they would have to be on average to pull that off. Maybe only veteran squads would be able to pull off such a scheme.

We could also go hyper-expense and Diamond Dust permanency Channel Vigor on each of them...
Best thing to do would be to issue them single-use Haste and Blessing of Fervor charms. The Haste charm could affect up to 5 people and would last for 5 rounds, at a cost of 75 IM, while a Blessing of Fervor could affect up to 7 people for 7 rounds at a cost of 140 IM.

These aren't effects they would need often enough to justify the incredible expense of using diamond dust Permanency on them, despite the awesomeness of Channel Vigor.

Combining the effects of Haste and Blessing of Fervor would work really well for a team of Praetorians.
 
Optionally, @Azel, if the above isn't really viable beyond "single encounter" methods, could Praetorian Clerics maybe have a build centered around Persistomancy themselves? This way they could give a number of persistent spell effects to squads of Praetorians.
I don't see why they should not, though I'm not really good at building 3.5 Clerics.
 
Low-level Persistomancy is very feat-intensive. People usually remedy that by taking specific domains that we may not want (the best combo is Planning Domain + Undeath Domain, for free Extend Spell and Extra Turning).
You also don't really have much good stuff to Persist at that level, to be honest. Persistomancy really starts getting good around level 5 or 7 IMO.
 
Low-level Persistomancy is very feat-intensive. People usually remedy that by taking specific domains that we may not want (the best combo is Planning Domain + Undeath Domain, for free Extend Spell and Extra Turning).
You also don't really have much good stuff to Persist at that level, to be honest. Persistomancy really starts getting good around level 5 or 7 IMO.
Since we want them to be Imperial Clerics, they are locked into Law, Fire, Knowledge, Espionage and Legislation.
I honestly don't think it's really worth it, since the most we will get is lvl 6 Clerics.

Better kit them out with plenty of scrolls for buffing. It ain't Persistomancy, but it still makes a limited number of casters go very far.
 
Low-level Persistomancy is very feat-intensive. People usually remedy that by taking specific domains that we may not want (the best combo is Planning Domain + Undeath Domain, for free Extend Spell and Extra Turning).
You also don't really have much good stuff to Persist at that level, to be honest. Persistomancy really starts getting good around level 5 or 7 IMO.
They'd get their first level 5 spells at 9th level. So something for veteran squads only.
 
@Goldfish, can we craft Eternal Wands?
I want to say we've asked DP about that before, but I cannot remember his ruling on them.

Best to just check with him in the morning.

EDIT: @Azel, Never mind, I remember that DP didn't have an issue with Eternal Wands. Well, my memory supplemented by a quick keyword search.
 
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The biggest hurdle to getting Eternal Wands, @Azel, is that of all our crafters, only Anu actually has the Craft Wand feat. Lya doesn't need it, because of one of her Mythic abilities, but she generally has better stuff to work on than wands.

That said, Anu could craft up to seven 3rd level Eternal Wands each month if we had him set his Dedicated Wrights to the task.

EDIT: Well, I guess Qyburn could to if he rearranged his crafting feats a bit.
 
Can we avoid going into the throne room until after everyone inside is dead and we've had several good mages look it over? The Lannisters have been playing around with anti-dragon shit, and they could be relatively confident that we'd show up here in person. Maybe we can take it, but I'd prefer not to walk into a killing field that may have been designed for ganking Viserys.

On the useful spells front, we should get some Hand of the Faithful scrolls for this kind of thing. If we had some around we could use them to scrape supports off of melee units and slowly drive them out of claimed areas.

Also, some Divine Protection, Legion's Shield of Faith, and possibly an at will Legion's Snake's Swiftness charm or two would be useful.
 
Can we avoid going into the throne room until after everyone inside is dead and we've had several good mages look it over? The Lannisters have been playing around with anti-dragon shit, and they could be relatively confident that we'd show up here in person. Maybe we can take it, but I'd prefer not to walk into a killing field that may have been designed for ganking Viserys.

On the useful spells front, we should get some Hand of the Faithful scrolls for this kind of thing. If we had some around we could use them to scrape supports off of melee units and slowly drive them out of claimed areas.

Also, some Divine Protection, Legion's Shield of Faith, and possibly an at will Legion's Snake's Swiftness charm or two would be useful.
I agree that we shouldn't enter the throne room until the whole keep has been thoroughly checked for traps.
 
If we don't go to the throne room, then that very same encounter will be triggered in some other fashion and I'd rather avoid having unnecessarily high Praetori losses because we wanted to avoid the CR 27 Murdergolem.

The best we can do is not to pop up right before it.
 
Since our soldiers all carry our symbol as part of their uniform, this would be extremely useful when they have to take defensive positions somewhere. Unlike a lot of other spells that have such force-field effects, it also works fine when used offensively. Throw it at enemies hiding somewhere and they must either move or get stunned. Only downside is that the DC will likely be pretty meh.
One of those spells that an Eternal Wand would be useful for since a Praetori Troop could be completely covered by two castings.
It's a level 4 spell, so sadly out of reach.
Legion's Snake's Swiftness
This one is pretty interesting. Would go well on a regular wand.
 
If we don't go to the throne room, then that very same encounter will be triggered in some other fashion and I'd rather avoid having unnecessarily high Praetori losses because we wanted to avoid the CR 27 Murdergolem.

The best we can do is not to pop up right before it.
I get that we don't want to take unnecessary losses, but walking into a room specifically prepared to kill you is dumb. We know that the Lannisters have been putting a substantial amount of effort into nerfing dragons, and have had access to some high grade materials to work with.

Rolling up and jumping it in the exact way they're hoping for is just piling up advantage after advantage on whatever is waiting in there. Assuming it's so far beneath us that it can't hurt us even when we go out of our way to give it the best practical conditions to fight us in is a bad idea.

This sort of thing is what the praetorians were made for, and with (non-draconic) PC support they can likely manage it.
 
I get that we don't want to take unnecessary losses, but walking into a room specifically prepared to kill you is dumb. We know that the Lannisters have been putting a substantial amount of effort into nerfing dragons, and have had access to some high grade materials to work with.

Rolling up and jumping it in the exact way they're hoping for is just piling up advantage after advantage on whatever is waiting in there. Assuming it's so far beneath us that it can't hurt us even when we go out of our way to give it the best practical conditions to fight us in is a bad idea.

This sort of thing is what the praetorians were made for, and with (non-draconic) PC support they can likely manage it.
Please just trust me on this. I might have to recuse myself after this vote, if my hunch is correct.
 
I get that we don't want to take unnecessary losses, but walking into a room specifically prepared to kill you is dumb. We know that the Lannisters have been putting a substantial amount of effort into nerfing dragons, and have had access to some high grade materials to work with.

Rolling up and jumping it in the exact way they're hoping for is just piling up advantage after advantage on whatever is waiting in there. Assuming it's so far beneath us that it can't hurt us even when we go out of our way to give it the best practical conditions to fight us in is a bad idea.

This sort of thing is what the praetorians were made for, and with (non-draconic) PC support they can likely manage it.
Yep. Full agreement here, @Azel.

I know the shit I could pull with a prepared killing ground and unlimited resources. The Snare isn't even close to the worst we could manage, since we want to be able to use it for various purposes and care if it survives more than a single use.

I would happily reduce the Red Keep to undifferentiated rubble before ever having Viserys step foot into the structure.
Please just trust me on this. I might have to recuse myself after this vote, if my hunch is correct.
Well that's not ominous at all...
 
Well that's not ominous at all...
🤷‍♂️

If I hadn't proposed my current plan before thinking of this, I'd recusing myself already, since I'm rather constrained in how I can argue. The gist of it is that I sincerely doubt that we can avoid whatever they have prepared, but if we can't do that, then we at least should be present to help the Praetori against it.

Which is why I'm specifically looking to pop up behind our troops instead of right before the throne like a sucker waiting for the punch.
 
Can't we just demolish the room from outside? Thus handily tripping the trap by burying it in rock. If we don't think that will trip the trap, removing the roof without completely burying the room would still benefit us in giving us room to maneuver and allowing our vessels to fire into the room.
 
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Can't we just demolish the room from outside? Thus handily tripping the trap by burying it in rock. If we don't think that will trip the trap, removing the roof without burying the room would still benefit us in giving us room to maneuver and allowing our vessels to fire into the room.
Whatever is inside is not going to be stopped by even the entire keep collapsing on top of it.

Can we stop mincing words? @Azel is referring to the high CR murdergolem that the Lannisters turned the Throne into.

That's what we are dealing with here. We are not avoiding this fight. This is a fight that was always going to happen.
 
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