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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Exmorri said:
What makes you so confident that this remains true in Divided Loyalties?
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Dwarves without either Valaya's protection or Hashut's turn into stone in Divided Loyalties, for one thing.

For another, if this was a thing that happened Mathilde would have heard of it, she's lived in a Karak and the children of Dwarves being born as Beastmen would be a major negative event seeing as how their population is already very much in decline.
 
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[X] THEORY: Morghur was reborn as a dwarf and at least partially protected by the Valayan rites, subsequently those protections were either relaxed or overwhelmed to allow him to mutate physically while retaining self-control and his dwarven identity.
[X] ACTION: Persuade the Expedition to stay put for a day while you sneak to the gates of the Karak and try to have a chat about it.

SuperSonicSound said:
by the way for those saying Morghur isn't producing enough dhar, reread the opening description.


Certainly reads like he's putting it out there.
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Note it doesn't say Dhar, just energies. It could be pure Ghur for all we know, or a spray of AV. Normally I'd assume it's Dhar, but this is such a bizarre scenario...

065tdsa said:
Dwarves without either Valaya's protection or Hashut's turn into stone in Divided Loyalties, for one thing.

For another, if this was a thing that happened Mathilde would have heard of it, she's lived in a Karak and the children of Dwarves being born as Beastmen would be a major negative event seeing as how their population is already very much in decline.
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What's that got anything to do with the matter? Dwarves eventually turn to stone from exposure to the Winds of Magic in general. We've no reason to believe that more specific forms of mutation aren't possible.

Dwarves are usually born inside holds beneath kilometers of stone, that is, as we know, an excellent insulator of magic. It may well be something that happens to Imperial Dwarves, and just be something that's not talked about, dealt with as a private tragedy resulting in infanticide with no mention of it subsequently. WHy would this be something that dwarves would publicse and talk about with Mathilde?
 
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Morghurs full title is Morghur the Shadowgave. The Gave is important there: it refers to the human practice of giving up mutated babies to live among beastmen, instead of killing them.
But if a child that would have been a gave was instead raised by dwarves, under valayan wards and stone...
 
Varano said:
That reads like it's repelling magic like Kragg the grim did
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Do you have a quote showing Kragg doing the same thing? I certainly don't recall anything like that happening in quest.


Arcing energy is generally a sign of a build up rather than a push away. With electricty it only arcs through the air when you have significant enough potential difference to make air conduct. Sounds like the opposite of what a rune smith would do.
 
Wait, guys, I have a brilliant idea.

[ ] THEORY: This is not Morghur.
[ ] ACTION: Have somebody fire a cannon at him. If it disappears or turns into butterflies or whatever mid-way, then it's Morghur. If it doesn't, he isn't.
10ebbor10 said:
One important thing to consider is that there's a difference between

"The hold has fallen to Chaos"
and
"Karak Anzor Dwarves will think the hold has fallen to Chaos"

My theories currently go to a scenario where the hold still holds, but they've resorted to such extreme measures that dwarves among our expedition might start levying grudges/turning slayer once they realize what's going on.
That's why we're told to go back.

There's no suggestion about going inside to capture artefacts, because the hold is still using those artefacts.
There's no suggestion about going inside for vengeance, because the hold does not need to be avenged
There's no looking for survivors, because rescue is not desired.
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I mean... rescue is probably desired.

But I'm not sure what a rescue scenario would even look like, here, since Dwarves are not gonna want to leave the mountain behind when what they're doing now is sort-of working.
 
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
[x] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
 
Trickster314 said:
So has anyone considered calling out to Morghur in Khazalid and politely requesting to be allowed entrance into the Karak as Loremaster of eight peaks and representative of the Karak Ankor, instead of trying to sneak in? From what we can tell from the interaction between Morghur and Borek, Morghur is not completely insane and appears to have ties of some sort to Karak Dum and might even be able to understand Khazalid. Mathilde also has the Rune of Valaya's Vengeance which should prevent any mutations from incurring Morghur's full attention. Sure there's a chance of horrible death and mutation but that's kinda to be expected.
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I can support this. Updating my vote.

[x] ACTION: Politely ask Morghur to be granted entrance into Karak Dum.
[x] ACTION: Turn back

[x] THEORY: Morghur was reborn as a dwarf and at least partially protected by the Valayan rites, subsequently those protections were relaxed to allow him to mutate physically while retaining self-control and his dwarven identity.
[x] THEORY: The dwarves of Karag Dum are alive and uncorrupted by Chaos, but have resorted to truly drastic measures to survive, probably undertaken by their controversial "Rune Masters", which involves having these beastmen or beastmen-appearing creatures defending the karak for the dwarves. We can assume that this is all in favour of the dwarves by Morghur's easy acceptance and non-destruction of Borek as well as Borek's mutual acceptance of the beastman. The idea of Rune Masters being critically involved is the certainty that some form of magic was used to create this whole situation, including the odd weather, and the Rune Masters' lack of corruption is supported by the lesser level of ambient dark magic in the area, even directly around Morghur himself.
[x] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
[x] THEORY: Omegahugger
[X] THEORY: Morghur has been linked to Karag Dum's waystone, which is acting as a psudo-herdstone that is burning away Dhar instead of creating it. Morghur is possibly cleansed of Dhar, and sees dwarfs of Karag Dum as family. The waystone may have been the cause of the weird geography via Geomancy, and might be weaponized. Based on Boreks last words, this was a longstanding contingency plan held by the dwarfs of Karag Dum. He is ashamed because it's a desecration of one of the greatest relics of the Ancestor Gods, as well as binding the fate of Karag Dum to a Beastmen Demi-God.
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum may have found a way to create and control beastmen.
[x] THEORY: Gor Dum is either a mutated dwarf or controlled by a dwarf, look at how he reacted to Borek.
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum has somehow tricked or compelled Morghur to fight the Kurgan tribes.
[x] THEORY: Through either Pact, Binding or some other venue the dwarfs of Karag Dum have installed Morghur as some form of defensive guardian, supported by the fact that Morghur is treating the mountain as a giant herdstone while to my vision it is not. The confounding factor here is that the energy flowing out of Karag Dum is uncorrupted. Morghur himself would almost certainly be using it for his own ends, so it means the occupants of the hold either don't know how to use it, don't care to use it or still consider themselves part of the Karaz Ankor enough that they let the energy flow uninterrupted.
[x] THEORY: Garlak (with Redshirt Army corollary)
[x] THEORY: The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included.
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum converted the hold's Rune of Valaya into a Rune of Valaya's Vengeance, which ignites Dhar and protects the user from flames. The resulting explosion blew up the other mountains and created the desert around it. The hot wind we're feeling is the result of that same rune still burning up Dhar - which means that the hold is still without a Rune of Valaya.
 
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CornyBones said:
Okay. so lets go down the list.

The former Karack is using a centuries old Beastman Prince.
The Prince is not forcibly bound.
The environment around the mountain has been warped dramatically.
There are a lot of beastmen around the mountain.
Botrek was not surprised by any of this.

-Simple Conclusion: The Karack has "fallen" to Beastmen.

Speculation: the Dwarves used The Prince's reincarnation to their advantage, raising a beastman in a dwarf Karak. There are likely Dwarven Beastmen in the forest. Boney likes to play with the tenets of established canon, and Beastmen haven't had a clear focus before now. Ergo, Beastman reproduction, and culture, might not be the canon compliant that we think it is.
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Note beyond said 'Beastprince' we haven't actually seen other Beastmen just what 'seems' to be other Beastmen via shadows in the Woods. We have reasonable suspicion to assume Beastmen but that doesn't necessarily mean Beastmen.
 
picklepikkl said:
It's not a real Herdstone.
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Remember the Dragon Monolith?

We know there's a step in making a Herdstone that does not taint it, and yet it's a completely usable giant magic rock.

Dwarf!Mhorghur could have used the KD Waystone as a pseudo-Herdstone without actually doing the final tainting to chaos and created the forest, and possibly summoned the beastmen we saw, through it. We know beastmen can travel through their forests in ways known only to them.

He could be acting like it's one because, for most intents and purposes, it is. It's just not literally a Herdstone, as we can verify readily by it not sending tainted energies through the network. But it's in that between step that it's a giant magic henge that lets him channel his magic through it.

A network which Dum would be extremely keen to preserve, as they know what it does.
 
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[x] picklepikkl

I am just going for one of the people who follow this quest more in depth because these is incredibly confusing.
 
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SuperSonicSound said:
Do you have a quote showing Kragg doing the same thing? I certainly don't recall anything like that happening in quest.


Arcing energy is generally a sign of a build up rather than a push away. With electricty it only arcs through the air when you have significant enough potential difference to make air conduct. Sounds like the opposite of what a rune smith would do.
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The vitae being pushed in the vials in Kraggs presence, Mathilde's shadow trying to run away in Kraggs presence, Mathilde's own soul feeling like it was being pushed by Kraggs presence to the point she can use that to figure out where he is in k8p, this is shit you already know, you are proposefully engaging in bad faith with that damn lie of "don't recall anything like that happening in quest"
 
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If nothing else I might have a theory on HOW the Karak Dum dwarves were able to bind Morghur.

My theory is that they had one of Kadon's scrolls of binding lying around and they used that in conjunction with runemaster stuff to bind the dwarfborn Morghur into sanity, or something I dunno either way one of those scrolls should theoretically be capable of binding Morghur.
 
I've seen it said once or twice, but considering the speed of the thread I want to bring up the possibility that we can't see through a runecrafted illusion, or even detect one, anywhere near as well as we could a more "standard" wind cast one.
 
Ambit said:
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Man, all I know for sure is that I really hope Boney updates again soon.
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Whatever the vote ends up being will only drive us madder and madder.
Which is fitting, for where we are.
"The thread went to the chaos wastes and went mad."
"Oh you mean the player character?"
"No."
 
LightLan said:
all this will do is have the other councilors look at us like we're mad.

Or brainwashed. Or a Chaos Cultist.
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After seeing the Daemonette-slayers, that possibility that you can't believe your eyes should be something they're prepared to entertain.

For example, the dwarves of Karak Dum could have been cursed to appear as beastmen, as threatening as possible, in the eyes of prospective allies. Now, Mathilde doesn't believe that, but the others wouldn't know that.
 
Reiterating what I said before in different form: this seems pretty unprecedented, and extremely weird. Way I see it, anything this weird and big, Order factions should find out in more detail than we have right now. Is it Dwarfs doing this? Have they still not fallen to Chaos? How long can they hold out if so? If they have fallen to Chaos, are they a potential threat? If so, when will they start acting against Order factions? Can whatever is happening here be repeated? If so, should it? With what we know, Dum can be anywhere from a safe haven for Order with non-Chaos-aligned Beastmen to a new horrible Chaos invasion in the making.

And yes, I realize that sticking around is quite risky, but that's sorta what we signed up for, and I'd argue investigating it is our duty to the Empire, Colleges, and Karaz Ankor (whereas before we assumed that whatever happened to Dum is relatively mundane, so whether they survived or not wouldn't seriously affect the Old World either way)

As a sidenote, whatever it is, I'm sure there's College Favor in the paper we will write about it... should we survive.
 
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