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So Cor-Dum is potentially Boreks younger brother? Morghur reborn into his family maybe 20 years before he left? That'd explain the intimacy younger brother seeing his older brother for the first time in 200 years. He'd never admit that he was his brother to us because it would be shameful (That they didn't kill a mutant) presumably the dum runesmiths did something?

Shit load of conjecture and assumptions in this though ultimately still means we have to scrub the expedition.
 
If the Karag Dum are still somewhat loyal, despite the harsh measurements, and part of it is using the excuse that they at least keep sending power via the waystones down, what happened at Vlag, known now via Borek, is going to be somewhat both a blessing and a curse to learn.
 
Ulgu lenses to make telescopes? (Sorry if it's been brought up before)

That won't make the forest any less shadowy, and from what she's heard casting spells around Morghur might not be the best idea.

I'm guessing that (but am asking to confirm) the Ulgu of the telescopes would block windsight?

Yes.

On another note, would a physical glass lense be useful to telescope Mathilde's windsight?

No.
 
One thing I dont think folks have touched upon: Karag Dum, mountain included, is now inside a crater without the rest of the mountain range. Enslaving beastman doesn't explain that at all, but a sort of "bubble" effect (Sphere) does very very well.
(I'll make a full effort post later, but this means that the enslavement theory is, minimally, not complete)
I'd guess they made multiple plans. A nuke was plan A. Whatever this is is plan B.
 
[X] THEORY: Things are not what they appear as at the first look. Nothing Mathilde knows allows for what they are witnessing to be the reality.


[x] THEORY: That's not Morghur. Morghur constantly changes his surroundings, Morghur does not make reality more stable near himself, Morghur does not display affection, Morghur would never stay here unless he was bound, and if he was bound he'd be struggling constantly to get out. The shuddering of reality can be faked by Runesmiths if they wanted.

[x] THEORY: This could be a Rune-based Illusion with "Morghur" being a Runemaster. The Dawi of Karag Dum let the forces of Chaos assume that Dum has fallen and is surrounded by Beastmen forces so they don't all unite to attack the Hold together and instead only come in smaller groups to "test" themselves against another chaotic force.

[x] THEORY: The dwarves of Karag Dum are alive and uncorrupted by Chaos, but have resorted to truly drastic measures to survive, probably undertaken by their controversial "Rune Masters", which involves having these beastmen or beastmen-appearing creatures defending the karak for the dwarves. We can assume that this is all in favour of the dwarves by Morghur's easy acceptance and non-destruction of Borek as well as Borek's mutual acceptance of the beastman. The idea of Rune Masters being critically involved is the certainty that some form of magic was used to create this whole situation, including the odd weather, and the Rune Masters' lack of corruption is supported by the lesser level of ambient dark magic in the area, even directly around Morghur himself.

[x] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.

[x] THEORY: Neither Morghur nor beastmen are what they appear to be - they are instead dwarfs of Karag Dum, who changed bodies through principles they knew but still kept their souls and minds intact. The reason for that was the need for new bodies that could survive fighting in the Wastes. "Morghur" is a member of the Royal Clan or a Runemaster that knew Borek personally, which why he made such an intimate gesture. It is possible that not all dwarfs suffered such fate, if that is the fate they suffered. Borek knew of such plan, but found it shameful and thus fell into despair when he saw it done.

[x] THEORY: Whatever the hell is happening, Borek seemed to still care for what Karaz Ankor thought of him and that what we are seeing is the result of his home trying their best to fufill their duties in ways the rest of dwarves probably wouldn't approve. The Corrupter seemed to recognise Borek as almost kin and hasn't made a move against us. I think some very careful investigation is warranted.

[x] THEORY: Karag Dum is using a fake Morghur to make the real beastmen fight for them.



[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
[X] [Action] wait nearby and observe. It shouldn't be nearly as dangerous as it seems, and that allows us to gather additional clues.
[x] ACTION: Investigate further.
 
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[x] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.

[x] ACTION: Investigate further.
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
[X] [Action] wait nearby and observe. It shouldn't be nearly as dangerous as it seems, and that allows us to gather additional clues.
[X] ACTION: Infiltrate Karag Dum to gather information.

@BoneyM - this vote is quite a bit of a mess. With me wanting to investigate further, I have 4 main different votes pushing for investigation with different phrasing, and about 10 more detailed ones. Could You set explicit vote examples for general approach? I.e.:
- turn back
- gather information
- approach Cor Dum
- attempt to push through forest to karak
 
One thing I dont think folks have touched upon: Karag Dum, mountain included, is now inside a crater without the rest of the mountain range. Enslaving beastman doesn't explain that at all, but a sort of "bubble" effect (Sphere) does very very well.
(I'll make a full effort post later, but this means that the enslavement theory is, minimally, not complete)
A pseudo-Herdstone would explain the forest, the beastmen and could explain the dessert. And it would be theoretically possible to tinker a waystone so it functioned as such.
 
I think plenty enough people more familiar with the source material than I have broken the info down but I'm bored so here's my two cents:

Let's start with the possible actions.

[] ACTION: Turn back
The first, and most typical 'Dwarf' action ('Human' too for that matter) would be to turn back. This is entirely reasonable and probably safe. It's also, barring another twist, going to be rather unsatisfying. I will note, however, that if we don't get answers now, it could very possibly be a plot hook for post-Expedition events, and one that the thread/Mathilde would not easily ignore if we're being honest.

We then have various means of attempting to gain information:

[] ACTION: Wait and see
Firstly, we can just linger for a bit and see if anything else happens. I wouldn't count on the Beastmen doing much other than perhaps charging at us (not ideal), but the other Kurgan tribes (the Kul and whoever else it was) might appear and trigger something themselves. Or constant observation w/ Magesight might spot a clue. My impression is that Morghur isn't going to just look up and charge, so I don't think this would be any more dangerous than chilling in the Chaos Wastes would be otherwise. But it's a bit dull and unlikely to really result in anything.

[] ACTION: Scout the outskirts of the crater w/ mobile forces + Mathilde. Look for other, hopefully more benign, entities to make contact with.
-> It's a bit of a compromise pick, but we could just try scouting around outskirts of the crater. My concern would be whether entering the crater would break some sort of figurative/magical tripwire here. Also that I wouldn't expect to find anything other than bones. But maybe there'll be a sign of Dwarvish presence somewhere else, or we can make contact with the other tribes 'challenging' Morghur.

[] ACTION: Mathilde covertly infiltrates the forest and, if possible, Karag Dum by herself
Secondly, Mathilde can attempt to covertly infiltrate Karag Dum or at least the forest surrounding it. This is very much unknown unknown territory here, pitting Mathilde's stealth skills against a big question mark.

[] ACTION: Rangers + Mathilde covertly infiltrate the forest and, if possible, Karag Dum.
Thirdly, Mathilde could move in with the Rangers, including perhaps Snorri. This doesn't really benefit the stealth component, but if we're operating under the possibility that vaguely Order-aligned Dwarfs are still in control of the Hold, Dwarven presence might very well be important in not getting ganked, particularly in comparison to a lone magic-wielding human.

[] ACTION: Move back (either in force or with scouts) to interrogate/question local tribes as to what the fuck is going on.
Fourthly, we can double back and try to interrogate the local tribes. This gets us away from Morghur and can probably shed a little bit of light. But nothing they tell us will be reliable info.

[] ACTION: Ask it and find out.
Finally, we can actually be mature, humble, responsible adults and just walk up to Morghur and fucking ask it for directions what's going on instead of prevaricating. I mean, Borek seemed to get along with the entity so it can't be that bad, right?

And finally,

[] ACTION: Drive closer and try to hit Morghur with your sword.



Now in terms of trying to deduce what's going on ourselves. I feel like there are two distinct but interconnected questions here: First, what did we just see? Then, what does that mean about the state of Karag Dum?

[] THEORY: It's all an illusion
The mildly disappointing possibility is that that is not, in fact, Morghur standing there. But you'd think that the woman that just solved the enigma of Karak Vlag wouldn't be immediately fooled here. But it's possible. But who could it be?
-> Karak Dum Runemasters
They are a little bit out there. Note that this is orthogonal to whether or not they've been corrupted.
-> Chaos
Duh.
-> Dryad fuckery
This works as a sort of relatively benign explanation for the forest and beastman presence all the way up north, but it's not very clear to me how such an arrangement could have been formed in the first place. Notably, if we're going with dryads as being somewhat, uh, 'nympho' (I'm sorry), then their presence might explain the 'intimate gesture'.

[] THEORY: Morghur is just usual old unconstrained Morghur and there's nothing to see here.
This is the obvious conclusion, but it seems significantly at odds with what we just watched.

[] THEORY: Morghur is bound or tricked by something.
I don't really see the question of whether he's been bound/coerced by force or tricked by an illusion of some sort to be that material, since the possible actors are largely the same. Speaking of whom:
-> Karak Dum Runemasters or Dryad fuckery.
See what I wrote about them above, really.
-> Another Chaos entity.
Could be a powerful Chaos Lord or, like, Malagor or something. Or even the Gods themselves. Note that a rather basic explanation for the 'intimate gesture' might be Slaanesh's involvement here, especially given their known presence in Vlag. An explanation for the clean Waystone flow might be that it was needed to support the Vlag ritual and they haven't adjusted for what just happened yet.

[] THEORY: There's more to Morghur than previously known
Well, this is certainly the most intriguing option, but what could it be?
-> Morghur is tied to Karag Dum by birth/creation somehow.

There's something rather neat about how it was last seen just before the Great War where Dum fell out of contact with the rest of Order, being pursued by people that may well have killed it. Especially when we consider that the Runemasters are thought to have been unconventional and highly knowledgeable of Chaos. Especially when we know that they knew a major incursion was assembling, had been warning the Karaz Ankor about the coming threat for some time, and that those warnings were being ignored in favour of more immediately pressing concerns. Hence, they may have become more desperate and more inclined to resort to a deeply unconventional solution in order to weather the storm to come...

->Morghur's actually just, like, a top bloke.
Really nice chap.

-> Morghur... Morghur... Morg... Mork (hur hur hur)
oh god oh fuck
 
Because that doesn't follow at all. Having found a way to scratch by so far does not at all mean have established a permanently tenable defensive position. We simply do not know what the current strategic and tactical situation is.
Given the absolute slaughter, it does follow. This isn't scratching by by any means.

No, not necessarily. If this quest has made anything clear so far, it's that these sorts of things are far more nuanced than your local Witchhunter would have you believe. Mathilde has read the Liber Mortis and traded with Uzkulak. She is not a person who views the world in black and white. Her order is specifically known for understanding the utility of lesser evils.

Something, something shades of gray...
No, it really hasn't made that clear at all. It's been made very clear that using dhar will cause even the best person to go insane. And that's just Dhar. Chaos is a whole 'nother level of bad on that. Dhar one can know and not use, and be safe. Chaos has been known to corrupt by even knowing the stuff. There are no shades of grey when it comes to chaos. Using the name of the gods might have bad result. You can accidently call their attention on to you and be tempted that way. So no, I don't see any shade of grey here.
 
@BoneyM - this vote is quite a bit of a mess. With me wanting to investigate further, I have 4 main different votes pushing for investigation with different phrasing, and about 10 more detailed ones. Could You set explicit vote examples for general approach? I.e.:
- turn back
- gather information
- approach Cor Dum
- attempt to push through forest to karak

It's an experiment and a bit of a mess, but it's one that so far I'm pretty sure I can distil a meaningful result out of, so I don't want to pull the plug on it just yet.
 
A pseudo-Herdstone would explain the forest, the beastmen and could explain the dessert. And it would be theoretically possible to tinker a waystone so it functioned as such.
Sure, but it doesn't explain why Dum is in a crater now. As described, the elevation of the base of Dum is genuinely lower than everything else outside that sphere. It looks, naively, like they took a scoop out of reality (or, given the reality of the wastes, unreality?). The Herdstone alone doesn't really explain that.
 
Props for the update, though. I've been at the edge of my seat constantly refreshing for new replies ever since the second to the last update.

Still have absolutely no idea of what's going on, however.
 
Honestly, the thing I'm most worried about is what the Asrai are going to do when they learn about this. Because the answer may very well be "immediately assault the nearest dwarfhold."
 
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One thing I dont think folks have touched upon: Karag Dum, mountain included, is now inside a crater without the rest of the mountain range. Enslaving beastman doesn't explain that at all, but a sort of "bubble" effect (Sphere) does very very well.
(I'll make a full effort post later, but this means that the enslavement theory is, minimally, not complete)
To quote my earlier post.

The desert could demarcate the boundary where some serious energies are clashing. My guess is that Dum is enforcing a bubble of (relative) normality around itself, and as that bubble comes into contact with the forces of the Wastes which cause time dilation, you end up with a waxing and waning no man's land in which time may have been severely affected - resulting in extreme weathering, stones reduced to dust, corpses to dust, etc.
If the hold hasn't fallen, as the Chaos Wastes moved south and enveloped it, presumably they'd have access to more magic via the Waystone which would have allowed them to take on bigger and more radical projects, or perhaps to allow their runes to bear the extreme strain they're presumably under right now, because the available power levels increased in proportion with the load.
Could also be a strange effect of a mock-herdstone like Omegahugger proposed. It's very possible it's only tangentially related to the Beastmen thing though; not every detail needs to fit into a single explanation, as it's likely that Dum pursued menu avenues of survival, and would have exhausted all the more conventional options available before turning to the extreme.
 
[X] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.

[X] ACTION: Investigate further.
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
 
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So Cor-Dum is potentially Boreks younger brother? Morghur reborn into his family maybe 20 years before he left? That'd explain the intimacy younger brother seeing his older brother for the first time in 200 years. He'd never admit that he was his brother to us because it would be shameful (That they didn't kill a mutant) presumably the dum runesmiths did something?

Shit load of conjecture and assumptions in this though ultimately still means we have to scrub the expedition.
Dwarves don't birth Beastmen in the first place, that's a human thing.
 
@Oshha can I convince you to vote for this one instead? I believe it more accurately and holistically represents the situation and it's the second-highest of the theory votes.

[] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
 
Hmm, well we should probably organize the Theories from 'Dawi will actually believe this' to 'Everyone thinks the Ulgu Wizard is crazy'.
 
To quote my earlier post.


Could also be a strange effect of a mock-herdstone like Omegahugger proposed. It's very possible it's only tangentially related to the Beastmen thing though; not every detail needs to fit into a single explanation, as it's likely that Dum pursued menu avenues of survival, and would have exhausted all the more conventional options available before turning to the extreme.
I absolutely agree re: the desert, but that still doesn't explain the elevation change and the crater that Dum is now in (or, honestly, the rest of the mountain range disappearing).
Though it's possible they pulled a spacial displacement and it's entirely unrelated to the beastman thing, it certainly wouldn't be irrelevant to their situation now (which ofc effects what we should/can do).
 
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