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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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NexusEye said:
@BoneyM, are these the lakes Snorri is talking about?
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Yes, though I've been using this map for the Dark Lands:




Jyn Ryvia said:
Library science (often termed library studies, bibliothecography, library economy, and informatics)

I'm still arguing that its something that we can take a course in the imperial college or hire something to teach.

but if @BoneyM says otherwise I'll accept.
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Most who have some equivalent would consider it the Sacred Secrets of Verena or the Deep Mysteries of the Light Order or something like that, but Mathilde should be able to find someone willing to put her on the right track.

Fanhunter696 said:
@BoneyM I think that we have a pretty good description of the Arm, but we barely know anything about the physical description of the nut, besides that it looks like an undetermined nut... Can you give us a better description of it? I mean since Mathilde spend the first 10 years of her life as a peasant on the Empire (which is mostly covered in forces) I am assuming that she would be pretty familiar with a wide variety of nuts of "European" origin, like chestnuts, hazelnuts, walnuts, almonds, acorns, etc. and therefore it would be IC for her to have a decent approximation of a type nut that looks similar to that overwhelming source of ghyaran...
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Mathilde hasn't exactly gone out of her way to maintain the knowledge and memories of her youth. I know I'd struggle to remember anything about things I once had an encyclopaedic knowledge of when I was in my single digits. And Kelham is in a flat stretch of fields between the Aver and the hills that take up most of Western Stirland, it's one of the lucky ones far from forests.

fictionfan said:
Here is an implication of Mathilde being declared a dwarf all along.
@BoneyM : We obviously still can't do runesmithing, but if we somehow did are the son of Thungni now no longer obligated to hunt us down and kill us?
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Twice as hard, because you're not only taking the secrets of Thungni, you're betraying the Dwarves. You need to be able to trace your descent from Thungni to be a Runesmith.

DragonParadox said:
He is associated with Hell Fen which is a marsh in Silvania, along the banks of the River Stir. He's one of the Old Silvanian gods, perhaps the last left alive, though likely he was at one point worshiped in Stirland too.
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You might be getting a wire crossed with Bylorak from Kasmir's theory they're related somehow, and that there's other bog gods out there.

BoneyM said:
On paper, Stirland is right on the brink of finally pacifying Sylvania. In reality, things are very far from that simple. Like the Jutone ancestors of the modern Marienburgers, the Fennone ancestors of the Sylvanians were not part of the original tribal unification under Sigmar, instead being conquered by Emperor Sigismund centuries later. This original rift was only widened by the events of 1111, where warpstone meteors, the Black Death, and the invasion of the Skaven and the rise of Frederick Van Hal made Sylvania a cursed land. Mutation, disease, starvation, and predation are common to all who live there. The poor know damn well that their best defence against the horrors of the night is fealty to a Vampire that can command those horrors, rather than relying on the distant armies of an Elector Count. The rich know equally well that they would rather pay taxes in someone else's blood than their own gold. The Sylvanians might be cowed for now after the destruction of Castle Drakenhof, the deployment of the Battle Wizards, and the slaying of most of the more prominent Vampires, but it will take much more than that to win them over to the benefits of Empire and civilization.

This is the purpose that Kasmir has apparently dedicated himself to, and it's to some surprise that you finally track him to his current headquarters: a very small town on the northern edge of the marshes between the Hunter's Hills and the Aver Reach. There's a great deal of recent construction as the town takes advantage of cheap timber and the influx of settlers, and the town seems very different to the other Sylvanian towns you've visited.

"The town of Bylorhof," Kasmir says with a wave of his hand, walking the streets and nodding to those he passes. "Technically, it's part of County of Leicheberg. If you look at the roads, it's closer to being part of the County of Hornau. But realistically, it's Sylvanian - the people are Sylvanian and the Stirlandian Counts haven't drawn taxes or levies from here in centuries. But it's never been ruled by Vampires, either. Vlad von Carstein never tried, and though Mannfred von Carstein did, the Vampire he sent - Count Ranelf von Feuerfliege - was staked and thrown into Bylorhof Marsh."

"What makes this place so different?" you ask, consulting a mental map. "It's on the wrong side of the Ghoul Wood for them to escape the attention of the Von Carsteins that much, surely."

"Have you ever heard of Manhavok?" Without thinking you make a gesture to placate the God of Floods, and you frown as you try to remember where you learned it. "Yes, that's the one. God of Floods, only worshipped in Stirland, which always struck me as odd. Everyone knows the gesture and most people know the prayer, even if they grew up in the hills far from the gentlest tributary. But I think I know why. The ancient Fennones would worship the bogs, which isn't as strange as it first sounds. Bogs gave them bog-iron and peat and bog-wood and all sorts of berries, and in return the Fennone would give them their worship and the bodies of their dead, which the Vampires later took advantage of. Bylorhof never forgot the old ways, and they still worshipped the God of Bylorhof Marsh, Bylorak, even after the Vampires came. In secret at first, and openly after they struck down Count Ranelf. I think there was once a 'family' of Gods that were worshipped, one for each bog and marsh and swamp, and one for Manhavok for when waters encroached on dry land unexpectedly."

You frown to yourself as you remember the shrine to Stromfels under Wurtbad. It seemed strange to you at the time that there'd be a God of Shipwrecking so far inland, but for an ambitious acolyte, Manhavok might have represented some substantial Godly real estate that Stromfels might have been able to subsume, and considering the entire household got buried under flood-silt, perhaps Manhavok objected. "It makes sense," is all you say.

"The first clincher for me is Mannfred," Kasmir says. "After the Battle of Hel Fenn, the Imperial forces searched for Mannfred von Carstein's body. Martin of Stirland sent search parties on a regular basis for the rest of his life. Even today our forces keep finding necromancers dredging Hel Fenn. Some people take this as a sign that Mannfred escaped and is licking his wounds somewhere, but everything about him in the history books tells me he's not the type to lay low. If he was out there, we'd know about it. So I think that nobody can find him because Hel Fenn is holding him, just as Bylorak is holding Count Ranelf."

You nod to yourself. It doesn't take much to bring a Vampire back. If it hasn't happened yet despite all the foolish Necromancer acolytes doing their best to make it happen, it's reasonable to assume it's because something is stopping them. "You said the first clincher. What's the second?"

"Ever been to Hel Fenn?"

You think for a moment. "Visited Mikalsdorf once, but didn't pay much attention to the surrounds. Why?"

"It's not a fen, it's a swamp."

You shrug. "Cartographers mistake? Can't imagine many would be willing to double-check."

"That's the thing, I went digging through all the archives I could. Even the earliest maps record it as Hel Fenn, and so does every one since. Always one L, always two Ns. Something's making that name stick. Nobody's ever tried to 'correct' it to two-L one-N Hell Fen. Nobody's ever relabelled it to a swamp. Which makes me wonder where the Fennones got their name. Their foremost God, perhaps?"

You think through the rest of your knowledge of the Vampire Wars. "And Grim Moor?"

"Is a bog," he says with a smile. "Is it too holding tight onto Konrad?"

"Another God hidden in a name?"

"Morr, perhaps? Or something like 'Gremmer' that was transliterated into words by outsiders."

"All very interesting, but what's it in service of?"

He waves a hand. "Sylvanians have no patience for outsiders coming in with outsider Gods. They'll accept our help, and they'll definitely accept our gold, but at the first sign of trouble the priests flee and the Sylvanians will have no choice but to go back to their old habits. What do they care for Sigmar, who overlooked their tribe? What do they care for Taal when their forests are so hostile, or Rhya when their crops so often rot, or Shallya when there's no mercy to be found? But Bylorak succeeded where all others failed. Bylorhof never paid a drop of blood to the Vampire Counts. So if we can re-establish their Old Gods, perhaps they can succeed where ours have failed."
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BoneyM said:
Twice as hard, because you're not only taking the secrets of Thungni, you're betraying the Dwarves. You need to be able to trace your descent from Thungni to be a Runesmith.
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But in this case it wouldn't be Mathilde's fault, but Ranald's. Where does that leave Mathilde the Runesmith in terms of legality? Would she get Dwarf watchers attached to her to keep her from doing runesmith stuff until the Dwarfen elders figure this out?
 
You know, looking at that update that BoneyM quoted also provides some context for just how important the recovery of Karak Vlag is to the overall mood of the Karaz Ankor.
BoneyM said:
["]As for Karak Vlag... we still don't know. It's as if it was never founded. Not even the watchtowers that used to line the pass remain, nor any sign they were ever built. So not only did we lose our newly rediscovered kin, but we lost major Holds for the first time since the fall of Karak Azgal, and we didn't have enough influence in the world to even know their final moments, or who to level the Grudge against. Thorgrim's Age of Vengeance stopped being about hope and started to be about..." He sighs. "Settling our affairs as best we can before we disappear forever, and have to answer to the Ancestors for what has become of the Empire that They left us."
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[x] HALL: No
[x] MEAT: Yes
[x] ARM: Yes
[x] NUT: No
[x] PAPERS: Yes

Because I forgot to vote

BoneyM said:
It's not Mathilde's fault that she's not descended from Thungni, but it would be absolutely Mathilde's fault that she learned Runesmithing despite not being descended from Thungni.
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Why are people now so fixed on being a runesmith, We're retroactively a dwarf, not an actual one. We are still a Magister of the grey, and we sure as hell don't have Thungni's blood flowing in our veins.
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
To move Thread Madness in a slightly more productive direction, for the next 2 turns Mathilde will be working under a -10 Overwork Malus. What are some good actions she can take, where failure isn't especially risky?

I'm thinking "learn to swim" - assuming we have someone there to teach her that is, learning on her own would be pretty risky. But it's an important life skill!
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This Ulriczeit will be the 10 year anniversary of Abelhelm van Hal's death and we should something to commemorate him.

People have previously brought up the idea of teaming up with Roswita and writing a biography about his life together, and I really like this.
 
ThatGuyMike said:
Why are people now so fixed on being a runesmith, We're retroactively a dwarf, not an actual one. We are still a Magister of the grey, and we sure as hell don't have Thungni's blood flowing in our veins.
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No that I think this is a reasonable thing to attempt or that it will happen but I get the impulse. We know from the Dawi Zhar that rune lore and arcane magic can be mixed to impressive results so if we could somehow master the art we would likely gain considerable skill as and enchanter and more widely a magister.
 
DragonParadox said:
No that I think this is a reasonable thing to attempt or that it will happen but I get the impulse. We know from the Dawi Zhar that rune lore and arcane magic can be mixed to impressive results so if we could somehow master the art we would likely gain considerable skill as and enchanter and more widely a magister.
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Dawi-Zharr runes are Daemon forced into a form to perform a function as far as I'm aware. Thungni has no influence on their runes, besides the Dawi-Zharr runes being made in mockness to his.
 
DragonParadox said:
The Dawi Zhar definitely perverted rune lore to their own use otherwise Kragg wuld not worry about the axe being one of theirs rather than the Norscan Dwarfs.
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Exactly why my point still stands, Dawi-Zharr sacrifice Runesmiths, and Hatsheut killed the ones in the Dawi-Zharr when he was first trying to convert them. Their runes are made in mockness, Kragg wasn't sure whether it was Norse Dwarf, because Moulder was here and Hellpit is in the north in Troll Territory, thus it COULD be Norse dwarf or Dawi-Zharr.

I'm more then happy to be corrected however.

Edit: I could be wrong about this as I'm not as versed in Greenskins, but wasn't Grimgor's axe Gitsnik specifically mentioned to of been made with the sacrifice of Runesmiths?
 
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ThatGuyMike said:
Exactly why my point still stands, Dawi-Zharr sacrifice Runesmiths, and Hatsheut killed the ones in the Dawi-Zharr when he was first trying to convert them. Their runes are made in mockness, Kragg wasn't sure whether it was Norse Dwarf, because Moulder was here and Hellpit is in the north in Troll Territory, thus it COULD be Norse dwarf or Dawi-Zharr.

I'm more then happy to be corrected however.

Edit: I could be wrong about this as I'm not as versed in Greenskins, but wasn't Grimgor's axe Gitsnik specifically mentioned to of been made with the sacrifice of Runesmiths?
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Whether runesmiths actually converted to Hashut or the information was transferred unwillingly to Hashut there is enough commonality of form and function between Chaos Dwarf runes and Thungi dwarfs that Kragg can't tell just by looking at it and indeed admits he may never know if it is one or the other. That seems to indicate that some part of the secret to runes is translatable to arcane magic.
 
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I still really like the Stirlandian pantheon idea that Kasimir showed us. It frankly is what made the Avatar trait worthwhile to me, since the Stirlandian pantheon shows (and hints towards others in similar situations) us more players in the cosmic scale that Mathilde might stumble upon in the future.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Whether runesmiths actually converted to Hashut or the information was transferred unwillingly to Hashut there is enough commonality of form and function between Chaos Dwarf runes and Thungi dwarfs that Kragg can't tell just by looking at it and indeed admits he may never know if it is one or the other. That seems to indicate that some part of the secret to runes is translatable to arcane magic.
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Besides the part where Runes naturally draw on the winds because the dwarves hate magic? IF, and big if there, there was a way for it to be edited or changed in such a way via magic, it would probably lie at the base of Rune Lore, AKA Thungi's knowledge AKA probably tied to the underlying mechanics of runes AKA Something Thungni, and possibly his immediate successors, have only known.

Also, all your points have further backed up my own, there is such a drift between Runes of the Norse Dwarfs and the rest of the Karaz Ankor, that the fact that he isn't sure its Dawi-Zharr or Norse Dwarves speaks of how different the runes of the Chaos Dwarves and the Runesmiths are. Let alone the fact Dawi-Zharr runes have very little overlap with normal runes that we are aware of! Krag has no idea, because he doesn't know how much the Norse Dwarves rune lore has changed over the millennia (I'm exaggerating the age) they've been disconnected!

Rather than it being a secret part of runes that can be changed, its more like the runes have been researched in a different path, and while it COULD be the case for the Dawi-Zharr, despite the fact as far as i'm aware they forge daemons into weapons and the runes are bindings/force an effect on an item, its far more likely to not be! We have been told time and time again in lore that Dawi-Zharr HAAATE everything about the ancestor gods! Why would they ever use the runes of ONE OF THEM! It makes no sense!
 
ThatGuyMike said:
We have been told time and time again in lore that Dawi-Zharr HAAATE everything about the ancestor gods! Why would they ever use the runes of ONE OF THEM! It makes no sense!
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I mean they still use axes as weapons, right?

If their going to give up super valuable weapons tech just because the Ancestors use them ... wouldn't they have switched to spears by now? Was gonna say swords but I remembered that Gazul uses those.

If anything, hating the Ancestors is an additional reason to use Runes. Use their most loved and sacred things for their own purposes that would horrify and enrage the Ancestors like nothing else, it's a pretty solid revenge.
 
ThatGuyMike said:
Besides the part where Runes naturally draw on the winds because the dwarves hate magic? IF, and big if there, there was a way for it to be edited or changed in such a way via magic, it would probably lie at the base of Rune Lore, AKA Thungi's knowledge AKA probably tied to the underlying mechanics of runes AKA Something Thungni, and possibly his immediate successors, have only known.

Also, all your points have further backed up my own, there is such a drift between Runes of the Norse Dwarfs and the rest of the Karaz Ankor, that the fact that he isn't sure its Dawi-Zharr or Norse Dwarves speaks of how different the runes of the Chaos Dwarves and the Runesmiths are. Let alone the fact Dawi-Zharr runes have very little overlap with normal runes that we are aware of! Krag has no idea, because he doesn't know how much the Norse Dwarves rune lore has changed over the millennia (I'm exaggerating the age) they've been disconnected!

Rather than it being a secret part of runes that can be changed, its more like the runes have been researched in a different path, and while it COULD be the case for the Dawi-Zharr, despite the fact as far as i'm aware they forge daemons into weapons and the runes are bindings/force an effect on an item, its far more likely to not be! We have been told time and time again in lore that Dawi-Zharr HAAATE everything about the ancestor gods! Why would they ever use the runes of ONE OF THEM! It makes no sense!
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The Dawi Zhar hate the Ancestor Gods for abandoning them and their western kin for staying with them, but it is worth noting that they still sacrifice dwarfs to Hashut with special predilection, they have fund use for it, just it would be reasonable for them to find use for the lore of Thungi. If they had not than it would imply that Kragg the Grim can't tell the difference for sure between the work of his fellow runesmiths and a bound daemon just doing daemon things.

For further proof consider the fact that Kragg gave Mathilde the Dhar get out of jail free card with the implication that he would be in axe range of her, he would not be so generous to another wizard. That implies that runes while connected to the Glittering Realm are not directly connected to Thungi who can just turn them off. There is no god doing the heavy lifting in runecraft which theoretically means you could change the source of power from the Glittering Realm to the warp and reap the benefits.

That said this is all very tangential because Mathilde will never be a runesmith unless we discover Ranald actually did steal her soul and it was from a former runesmith who died without proper rites somehow which is about as likely as Lord Kroak showing up to teach her the Deliverance of Itza IMO.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
...Do you actually believe this to be more suitable than Practical Diplomacy or The Allies of Man, or one of the other more obvious diplomacy-focused classes?

On an entirely unrelated note, and not accusing you of an incredibly transparent ploy, I believe most of the thread doesn't want an apprentice.
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There are some who have voiced their opinion of not wanting an apprentice. But in the interest of not letting vocal potentially minority deny us who do want to pass on our skills and knowledge, I am stating that I very much do want an apprentice. Mathilde would make an excellent instructor of apprentices, I hope.
 
Not that this is something I want to do, but I wonder if, for example, a slave (not a Dwarf, Greensking, or Skaven, don't care about the race outside of that) of the Chaos Dwarves escaped to the Empire and had managed to secretly learn Runecraft by watching the Chaos Dwarves work ... how illegal would that be on the former slaves part, from the perspective of the Karaz Ankor.

Because while it's illegal to learn the secrets of the Karaz Ankor without that permission .... he didn't gain that info from them. Like, the same thing with warmachines, if some humans back in the day had stolen knowledge of how to make Grudge Throwers by spying on the construction process that would be a crime, but if they had met the Elves with the Elves already knowing how to do that then it'd presumably be fine because they didn't steal the knowledge from the Dawi.

In this case this hypothetical character would have stolen a secret of the Karaz Ankor, but it was stolen from enemies of the Karaz Ankor, in fact they stole the secrets of the Dawi's enemies, it just so happens that they share'd said secret. So, assuming that the Dawi knew for a fact it happened this way, would they still blame this character for learning their secrets, or is it legally permissible as the secrets were learned from an independent party?

Edit: I figure that the former slave would be in the clear, but it'd be yet another Grudge against the Chaos Dwarves .... though I'm very interested in the opinions of others here.
 
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