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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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[X] Fire Keeper: Ylva Hearth Hands
Gain: ++Medical Aid, +Search and Rescue

I would choose the priest of Grimnir in this, if it weren't for a few key lines of Ylva's backstory.
"Ylva was an active part in the Hold's medical community, writing, communicating and learning continuously"

if there is one thing that the Dawi of christmas future needed to learn, it was communication and continuous engagement. Especially across Cult, Guild, Family and Hold lines. Ylva combines her Clan's history as members of the Healer's Guild with the divinity of the Cult of Valaya and the communication and collaboration that an Elder is able to do with their earned respect and plait-length.

The important thing here is not to have our Hearthguard all learn to be healers. It is to learn, collaborate, and communicate actively with the Hold as a whole.
" Part of the reason she'd joined the Valkyrie Guard and later you, was to better and more directly aid the ill rather than wait for them to come to her."

Proactive. Communicative. Self-Improving. Altruistic.

The mechanical benefits are not why I am choosing Ylva. I actually prefer either of the other two mechanically, however

Ylva's backstory, slightly more than even the Priest of Grimnir's, is exactly the sort of Hearthguard I'd like to see.

Proactive. Communicative. Self-Improving. Altruistic.

Second choice is the Priest of Grimnir because Grimnir's Priests seem quite Proactive and Altruistic on the whole. If we can keep them preaching and practicing Grimnir's Life instead of focusing entirely on his doom well. That would be excellent.
 
JowKeen said:
[X] Fire Keeper: Ylva Hearth Hands
Gain: ++Medical Aid, +Search and Rescue

I would choose the priest of Grimnir in this, if it weren't for a few key lines of Ylva's backstory.
"Ylva was an active part in the Hold's medical community, writing, communicating and learning continuously"

if there is one thing that the Dawi of christmas future needed to learn, it was communication and continuous engagement. Especially across Cult, Guild, Family and Hold lines. Ylva combines her Clan's history as members of the Healer's Guild with the divinity of the Cult of Valaya and the communication and collaboration that an Elder is able to do with their earned respect and plait-length.

The important thing here is not to have our Hearthguard all learn to be healers. It is to learn, collaborate, and communicate actively with the Hold as a whole.
" Part of the reason she'd joined the Valkyrie Guard and later you, was to better and more directly aid the ill rather than wait for them to come to her."

Proactive. Communicative. Self-Improving. Altruistic.

The mechanical benefits are not why I am choosing Ylva. I actually prefer either of the other two mechanically, however

Ylva's backstory, slightly more than even the Priest of Grimnir's, is exactly the sort of Hearthguard I'd like to see.

Proactive. Communicative. Self-Improving. Altruistic.

Second choice is the Priest of Grimnir because Grimnir's Priests seem quite Proactive and Altruistic on the whole. If we can keep them preaching and practicing Grimnir's Life instead of focusing entirely on his doom well. That would be excellent.
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You've convinced me.

[X] Fire Keeper: Ylva Hearth Hands

[X] Plan Chain and A Daughter's Hand
 
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[X] Plan All in chain no favor spend
-[X] Render Aid: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Can be taken multiple times. Roll for usefulness, additional actions apply bonus to roll. Gain reputation and +2 bonus per action to Recruitment Dice. You formed these Hearthguard to combat all the ills that befall the dwarfen people. Send them out, render aid, earn goodwill and spread the word of your retainers and their stated mission beyond the borders of Kraka Drakk.
--[X] Eagle-Eyed: Gain 40 Favour +? with Kraka Ornsmotek. There is now a consistent presence of tunnel gnubblers within the mines of Ornsmotek. 1 Retainer Action.
-[X] The Rune Metal Pt. 1b: [Cost: (8 -2) =6 actions] Journeyman of the Odd and Soul of the Earth will proc. 4 Actions.

The extra action into chain gets us another bonus action on top of it and we are going to make her nice limbs in any case.
 
[x] Plan All in chain no favor spend
[x] Plan Chain and Zhufazul
[x] Plan Chain, Mat Sci, and Prepping for Ironarms

[x] Fire Keeper: Ylva Hearth Hands
[x] Khazid: Accept
 
I think that Fjolla might actually make the eye before we manage to do it. We are sharing all our research with her and she has a specially for both light and gems.
 
BungieONI said:
Getting it out to five aspiring Runelords seems like proper dissemination to me
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Bit of a tangent, but I'm not sure they'll hit Runelord until the current Runelords of Karka Drakk die out. Having 4 in one young hold is already exceptional.
Maybe Fjolla if she moves out to where she did her apprenticeship.
Jreengus said:
In my mind the Alchemists guild would be like any other guild where non runesmith dwarves make use of runes to achieve better results than they could on their own but are perfectly capable of operating without them.
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Erm so Alchemy is a magical process and dwarves are magic blind.
Asking non runesmiths to engage in magical muckery will give very few candidates and those that we do are going to be beyond eccentric.
Jreengus said:
I really don't see why it couldn't be, non runesmith dwarves make use of runes all the time as tools. Often better than runesmiths do because they have more time to devote to relevant skills, for example Otrek in our gear would be much stronger than Snorri is in it. This is the core of why I don't think we should focus on teaching Alchemy to other runesmiths if you do that you either end up with a runesmith with some alchemy knowledge or you trade a runesmith for an alchemist who can make runes, by comparison if you teach it to a non runesmith the Karaz Ankor gets an alchemist at the cost of a (much less valuable) non runesmith dwarf. We don't have runesmiths micromanaging gromril smelting, they make the smelter and then go their way and let the smiths handle it, this is basis any alchemy guild should use. Runesmiths build the tools alchemists use them and ideally they reverse engineer ways to do without runes in case they can't get access to the necessary runes. This way you don't need to go through the glacially slow growth of alchemists within the runesmiths your method proposes instead you get a dwarvenly slow growth of the alchemists guild as an entirely separate institute, one runesmiths can work with if they so desire and it's no different than when a runelord works with say the engineers guild.

Essentially the way I see the alchemists guild working based on my understanding of how warhammer magic works is that you would have the entirely mundane side of the guild, the chemistry side, this would cover investigating various mundane materials their properties how best to use them etc, they would probably work a lot with other mundane guilds to devolp their respective material sciences (e.g. working with smiths to create the best alloys for different situations or to create better refining process for ores) this hopefully results in inventing stuff like gunpowder early. Due to how magic interacts with most stuff in the warhammer world this would likely have a pretty fuzzy boundary between it and the more magical side which would have dwarves investigating methods of using physical materials and objects to interact with magic. Obviously this side covers a lot of stuff, there's obvious stuff like trying to create potions and elixirs by mixing together magical ingredients and submitting them to various process which is the stereotypical idea of alchemy, this would likely use a mix of mundane and runic tools. There would also be things like investigating the process by which magical materials (e.g. hearthstones) are created. Is it a process that can be deliberately replicated or was it a one off magical spasm that left them behind as a result? Can runes replicate the effect that created them and/or can it be done without them? This is the kind of investigation that would likely need a closer co-operation between alchemists and runesmiths but mundane dwarves can do a lot of the legwork and save runesmiths a lot of time as we've seen with spending favour on the rare places materials.
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So just an observation. All of the above can basically apply to Adamant and the Smelters guild.
And yet Snorri hasn't shared Adamant with them.

Don't underestimate Runesmiths tendancy to hold secrets.
 
Dark as Silver said:
So just an observation. All of the above can basically apply to Adamant and the Smelters guild.
And yet Snorri hasn't shared Adamant with them.

Don't underestimate Runesmiths tendancy to hold secrets.
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To be fair, considering Adamants properties and scarcity, it's not like it'd ever be used without runes. And they can't replicate the forge either. All giving it to the Smelters guild would do is shunt of the very minor task of occasionally putting in a bar of Gromril while taunting them with the results they don't get to use.
 
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Neroj said:
To be fair, considering Adamants properties and scarcity, it's not like it'd ever be used without runes. And they can't replicate the forge either. All giving it to the Smelters guild would do is shunt of the very minor task of occasionally putting in a bar of Gromril while taunting them with the results they don't get to use.
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Whereas non Runesmith Alchemists could replicate the alchemical runes?

And the Smelters guild could replicate the Brotherhoods original dragon blood method.

And the Brotherhood was willing to spend so much on Adamant in the first place that its clearly a potentially valuable trading good with a high demand from only the Runelords. So... why would it matter if it'd never be used without runes? The smelters guild is just smelting ingots and then selling them on. Thats the difference between Smelters and Blacksmiths.
 
Dark as Silver said:
Whereas non Runesmith Alchemists could replicate the alchemical runes?

And the Smelters guild could replicate the Brotherhoods original dragon blood method.

And the Brotherhood was willing to spend so much on Adamant in the first place that its clearly a potentially valuable trading good with a high demand from only the Runelords. So... why would it matter if it'd never be used without runes? The smelters guild is just smelting ingots and then selling them on. Thats the difference between Smelters and Blacksmiths.
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I imagine the idea is that alchemical stuff can be made way more in bulk once the proper tools have been made, to the point that there is real value in shunting that workload off from a runelord. Possibly even enough that it can become more generally available. Or that you only need a certain set of tools to do alchemical work and research, like how a modern labo has to buy a centrifuge and the like but aside of that can work independent.

And the brotherhoods method working with regular dwarves isn't actually certain. Considering it requires metaphysical purification I'd not be surprised if even that method requires a runesmith. It's also hilariously expensive, doubly so with the new method existing.
 
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Dark as Silver said:
Bit of a tangent, but I'm not sure they'll hit Runelord until the current Runelords of Karka Drakk die out. Having 4 in one young hold is already exceptional.
Maybe Fjolla if she moves out to where she did her apprenticeship.

Erm so Alchemy is a magical process and dwarves are magic blind.
Asking non runesmiths to engage in magical muckery will give very few candidates and those that we do are going to be beyond eccentric.

So just an observation. All of the above can basically apply to Adamant and the Smelters guild.
And yet Snorri hasn't shared Adamant with them.

Don't underestimate Runesmiths tendancy to hold secrets.
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To be clear I'm proposing a new guild built (initially) from apprentices Snorri would teach, (who would then teach their own apprentices etc) I'm not sure how common dwarves leaving one guild to join another would be but I could see some material focused dwarves from other guilds joining it too. I'd expect the initial founding group to be winterhearth dwarves who didn't have the gift but do have traits snorri considers usefull.

Being magic blind isn't an issue either, runesmiths are magic blind and they manage just fine. I'd expect alchemists to work the exact same way: create hypotheses based on existing knowledge or outside inspiration then engage in repeated detailed experimentation to discover the method. So for example when Snorri wanted to create the rune of forged limb he didn't observe the magic flows and how best to forge them into the right shape he just did hundreds of trials of slightly different hammer strokes recording all the observable data on how it effected the resultant rune until he got the rune that worked best. Alchemists would work exactly the same, make hundreds of records of trials and then compare them for the best results, except since it's a Snorri formed guild they'd probably be working together speeding the testing process up a lot.

With regard to adamant as Neroj said there's no real reason to share it with anyone else, the work saved for Snorri is negligible. If it was a regular rune and he could mass produce adamant I expect he would have shared it so the hold could start converting all it's pure gromril to adamant but as is he has three smelter which between them can only produce two bars a decade. On top of that there's the contract with the brotherhood of dron which prevents him from sharing it. Lastly there is a world of difference between sharing runes with a pre-existing guild and one Snorri has created and shaped to hold exactly the values he wants it to.
 
Neroj said:
I imagine the idea is that alchemical stuff can be made way more in bulk once the proper tools have been made, to the point that there is real value in shunting that workload off from a runelord. Possibly even enough that it can become more generally available. Or that you only need a certain set of tools to do alchemical work and research, like how a modern labo has to buy a centrifuge and the like but aside of that can work independent.

And the brotherhoods method working with regular dwarves isn't actually certain. Considering it requires metaphysical purification I'd not be surprised if even that method requires a runesmith. It's also hilariously expensive, doubly so with the new method existing.
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So... whats the bulk alchemy that we're expecting/anticipating/hoping we'll discover?

And the hilarious expense wasn't so much that the Brotherhood wasn't willing to get right of first refusal on our Gromril mine output and continue to make Adamant via their method until the improved smelter was made. Obviously the market is willing to pay for it.
Jreengus said:
To be clear I'm proposing a new guild built (initially) from apprentices Snorri would teach, (who would then teach their own apprentices etc) I'm not sure how common dwarves leaving one guild to join another would be but I could see some material focused dwarves from other guilds joining it too. I'd expect the initial founding group to be winterhearth dwarves who didn't have the gift but do have traits snorri considers usefull.

Being magic blind isn't an issue either, runesmiths are magic blind and they manage just fine. I'd expect alchemists to work the exact same way: create hypotheses based on existing knowledge or outside inspiration then engage in repeated detailed experimentation to discover the method. So for example when Snorri wanted to create the rune of forged limb he didn't observe the magic flows and how best to forge them into the right shape he just did hundreds of trials of slightly different hammer strokes recording all the observable data on how it effected the resultant rune until he got the rune that worked best. Alchemists would work exactly the same, make hundreds of records of trials and then compare them for the best results, except since it's a Snorri formed guild they'd probably be working together speeding the testing process up a lot.

With regard to adamant as Neroj said there's no real reason to share it with anyone else, the work saved for Snorri is negligible. If it was a regular rune and he could mass produce adamant I expect he would have shared it so the hold could start converting all it's pure gromril to adamant but as is he has three smelter which between them can only produce two bars a decade. On top of that there's the contract with the brotherhood of dron which prevents him from sharing it. Lastly there is a world of difference between sharing runes with a pre-existing guild and one Snorri has created and shaped to hold exactly the values he wants it to.
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I think the problem that experimentation thing. How do you imagine non Runesmiths doing this? Is the assumption that Snorri will invent a full range of MRunes for each alchemical transformation (basically equivilants to purification) and then they just combine those in different orders on different materials? Non Runesmiths feel extremely limited in what they could actually achieve as experiments.
Are you assuming that it no longer will require MRunes that take a decade to recharge, as otherwise its in the same place as Adamant that theres not a lot of effort to save. And we can only do one experiment every couple of years...

Also I didn't realise you were actually planning on sharing rune knowledge! Thats way against the strictures of Thungni:
Article:
All runesmiths must abide by the following strictures:[1b]​
  • Never reveal the secrets of magic runecraft to any other than a fellow runesmith or one's own carefully chosen apprentice.[1b]​

I don't think that they're apprentices would be a satisfactory loophole for the conclave of Runelords, especially if we're taking enough at a time to start a guild they hardly seem carefully chosen.
It would also possibly prevent us from employing Brana and Elves in the guild, which gets rid of the obvious solution to magic blindness.

Also just a reminder, pure Gromril is the result of Snorri manually working over and refining the Gromril that is actually on the market.
 
We have an apprentice that is very close to the magic perceiving griffins. We have an apprentice that seems to be developing a specialism in light and has one in crystals.23 have an apprentice that has a specialism in the closest dwarves come to spellcasting and developed a meta-magic/runic master rune.

That seems an ideal combination that could cross-pollinate into research to develop runic tools to detect and measure the Winds, and there's no reason non-runesmiths couldn't use them.

I would expect the Master Rune of Purification to be able to do a lot more than make adamant as part of one combo. I would also expect that many ingredients are a lot easier to make than the T4 adamant.

In terms of energy requirements, there's long term potential for plugging into the Waystone network or drawing on deep magic.

Many alchemical process of canon Thaumaturgical Alchemcy are naturally occurring even in the lower magic environment of the later Empire compared to the current very high magic environment. Just filtering and concentrating the ambient magic could well be able to manufacture things like Hearthstones.
 
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Alratan said:
We have an apprentice that is very close to the magic perceiving griffins. We have an apprentice that seems to be developing a specialism in light and has one in crystals.23 have an apprentice that has a specialism in the closest dwarves come to spellcasting and developed a meta-magic/runic master rune.

That seems an ideal combination that could cross-pollinate into research to develop runic tools to detect and measure the Winds, and there's no reason non-runesmiths couldn't use them.
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Okay so you're expecting we need to invent a device that will let dwarves see the winds before we can start an alchemy guild?
 
Dark as Silver said:
Okay so you're expecting we need to invent a device that will let dwarves see the winds before we can start an alchemy guild?
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No. It would make it much easier though. Dwarven engineers will manage to invent gunpowder without being able to directly perceive the reactions or molecular structures involved. Thorough experimentation and testing of hypotheses would be enough.
 
I have to say, making prosthetic arms out of adamant feels pretty wasteful.

After all, prosthetics are by their nature deeply personalized things, and they will never be used by anyone else, ever.

Compare that to talismans, weapons, etc. which will outlast their wielders and turn to heirlooms that'll be used by each generation.
 
Horium said:
I have to say, making prosthetic arms out of adamant feels pretty wasteful.

After all, prosthetics are by their nature deeply personalized things, and they will never be used by anyone else, ever.

Compare that to talismans, weapons, etc. which will outlast their wielders and turn to heirlooms that'll be used by each generation.
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This is the golden age, we are supposed to be a little wasteful by the standards of canon.
 
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