Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Rafin · Nov 28, 2020

Valmond said:
Or they might feel insulted that we tried to use access to military force as a bargaining chip.
I'm not opposed to leading the knights, i merely have zero interest in it, but the arguments here are not very good.
Please tell me why it is interesting, instead of how it is tactically necessary.

The following are why it might be interesting to some, but not necessarily you:

It makes participating in cavalry charges more likely.
It gives us a shiny line on our resume for when we have reason to wave it around in the Empire.
It allows us to divert some knights on our personal errand more easily.
It lets us play military commander if we want to.
It lets us better coordinate things like punitive raids, while also making us able to block raiding when we think it is a bad idea even if the knight commanders disagree and Borek could otherwise be swayed by them.

That's all I can think of. Points 2, 3 and 5 are the ones that personally interest me.

Valmond · Nov 28, 2020

storryeater said:
You assume we'll be overbearing about it, rather than subtle.

And strategising, planning and being on top of future events is fun aka interesting for some, some people do find optimization/playing a smart planner kind of character interesting, even if/when it doesn't always lead to the most interesting choices storywise.

No, i'm assuming Gotrek and Snorri are perceptive, instead of obtuse.
Well, more worrying, rolls can go badly.
And i'd rather have an extra voice in the council we can convince, instead of just holding all the cards.
Not really convinced having leadership position is optimal choice, but for anyone interested in strategy aspect, it may give more screentime for that aspect of the situation, but it is not the things i am interested in.

Rafin · Nov 28, 2020

@BoneyM Is the Dwarven chain of command on expeditions like this (that isn't lead by a single clan, guild, or cult) usually reinforced by oaths? And if not, what would be the typical Karaz Ankor Dwarf's reaction when keeping an oath directly goes counter to following the command of a superior officer?
Also, how does the same relate to non-capital O Oaths, like deals and informal promises?

I am mostly asking this to find out what the opinions of the other Dwarves is likely to be if they witness Borek commanding us to renege on our deal with the Ice Witches. And also how they would view us if we do what we promised, despite being told not to by the expedition's official leader.

LilyWitch · Nov 28, 2020

Valmond said:
And i'd rather have an extra voice in the council we can convince, instead of just holding all the cards.

Thing is if we don't control the knights then that doesn't add a voice we can convince. It adds a voice for Borek to convince.

If we assume control of all imperial and karak 8 peaks forces as the ranking wizard lord and thane then when we say "this does not have my concent" it means "this does not have the emperor's or King Belegars consent"

by contrast if we only control the wizards then it means "this does not have the collages of magic's consent"

there is a big difference in the weight of those connotations.

BurnNote · Nov 28, 2020

I guess it underlines just how close Borek is to going Slayer, in the sense of an irreversible mental break.
Part of Mathilde's estimation that Borek is willing to make an ally an oathbreaker is probably that she's had a lot of contact with comparatively radical/practical dwarfs, both Gotri and Belegar.

Because frankly? Smelting the coins is not so different, especially from a dwarven perspective. Is he not breaking the oaths of his ancestors with this? Both Mathilde and Belegar (and we in the thread) would argue that one thing harms no one, and the other does, but dwarfs don't really work on that sort of utilitarian ethical logic where it comes to how they feel (and neither do humans generally), so I imagine many dwarfs would see it as the same sort of crime, different in scale rather than kind. (Including Belegar perhaps).

So Mathilde may have a skewed impression of what Dwarven leaders are willing to do, because the ones she's familiar with skew towards the practical. Of course, Karag Dum was noted for being particularly practical, too. And the rulers of Karak Hirn and KaK also had moments like that she's seen (Not sending help and 'forgetting' about disinheriting his heir.)

Rafin said:
They're not stereotypes, but they do have an average type of behavior that differs from that of humans. And what's being described here is definitely possible behavior for a Dwarf, but it isn't expected behavior for a Dwarf.

I think the Karak Hirn situation is a good example (and I can't remember how our friend there is called. I tried to look it up in the Dramatis Persona, and couldn't find it. It bugs me).

For humans, conspiracy and mutual murder over rulership is awful, and certainly outside the norm. But it's not that far outside. Not uniquely so, it probably happens somewhere every generation (even after controlling for the population, since there's way more humans). For dwarfs, it was like Dieter IV, someone almost uniquely awful. (Though that gets heavily skewed by the dwarven reaction to bad things like this. It could happen a lot more and just get suppressed.)

The Chaos Dwarfs show that Dawi can built dysfunctional societies just as well as any other species. For Karaz-Ankor dwarves, it's likely a question of whether they can justify it to themselves. And in Borek's case? I think he can justify a lot.

NexusEye · Nov 28, 2020

BurnNote said:
I think the Karak Hirn situation is a good example (and I can't remember how our friend there is called. I tried to look it up in the Dramatis Persona, and couldn't find it. It bugs me).

The name of our Ranger/Prince friend is Ulthar.

Hyborem · Nov 28, 2020

[X] Lead the Wizards, Knightly Orders, and Asarnil

Boney · Nov 28, 2020

Andres110 said:
@BoneyM, 2e says that if you're a wizard you can become a casting priest but you lose your wizard powers. Is that possible in Divided Loyalties? If so, what actually happens with the wizard losing their powers? Do they become incapable of casting or do they simply not use it or what? And if they become incapable, do they discard their powers somehow or does the god take them away?

You're asking for answers to huge metaphysical questions that the Colleges cannot even begin to answer.

Rafin said:
Woah. Borek would shit on his debts for this? Or worse, demand that his ally do so for his benefit?
Actually, what's more surprising is not that there is a Dwarf that thinks like this. Dwarves are people too, just as varied as any other members of the same civilization. It's that Mathilde knows up front that he's that type of Dwarf without having asked him.

What made her think that he's this Elgi-like?

Or am I misunderstanding something fundamental when it comes to allies accruing debts you don't know about for your benefit in Karaz Ankor culture?

Mathilde doesn't know one way or the other, and would prefer to never be in a situation to find out.

Rafin said:
@BoneyM Is the Dwarven chain of command on expeditions like this (that isn't lead by a single clan, guild, or cult) usually reinforced by oaths?

Not directly, it usually falls under pre-existing Oaths to Clan or Guild or Hold.

Rafin said:
And if not, what would be the typical Karaz Ankor Dwarf's reaction when keeping an oath directly goes counter to following the command of a superior officer?
Also, how does the same relate to non-capital O Oaths, like deals and informal promises?

Depends too much on the individual and scenario for there to be a 'typical' reaction.

Rafin said:
I am mostly asking this to find out what the opinions of the other Dwarves is likely to be if they witness Borek commanding us to renege on our deal with the Ice Witches. And also how they would view us if we do what we promised, despite being told not to by the expedition's official leader.

Mathlide doesn't know the other Dwarves that could be those witnesses well enough to say.

Valmond · Nov 28, 2020

Lupercal said:
Thing is if we don't control the knights then that doesn't add a voice we can convince. It adds a voice for Borek to convince.

If we assume control of all imperial and karak 8 peaks forces as the ranking wizard lord and thane then when we say "this does not have my concent" it means "this does not have the emperor's or King Belegars consent"

by contrast if we only control the wizards then it means "this does not have the collages of magic's consent"

there is a big difference in the weight of those connotations.

If Borek is far gone enough that we need to turn the expedition around, i doubt the knights will go along with him instead of us, especially if we can convince Gotrek and/or Snorri.
And if we can't convince Gotrek and/or Snorri, we're not turning the expedition around anyway.

Rafin · Nov 28, 2020

BurnNote said:
The Chaos Dwarfs show that Dawi can built dysfunctional societies just as well as any other species. For Karaz-Ankor dwarves, it's likely a question of whether they can justify it to themselves. And in Borek's case? I think he can justify a lot.

Oh I would not make the argument that Dwarves are inherently and biologically more trustworthy. At best they might tend towards such societies due to long and vivid memories, a vulnerability to guilt, shame and (lower g) grudge keeping and a resistance to certain mental illnesses.

Anyway, thinking about the potential worst case behavior that is still in the realms of the probable is actually completely in Mathilde's character. She would definitely be open and ready for any given human ruler to turn out to be another Dieter IV. So I guess not telling Borek is IC except if we are actually looking for a plausibly deniable way to wiggle out of the deal woth the Ice Witches at least until the return trip.

EternityWarrior · Nov 28, 2020

Some of the arguments made in the last few pages convinced me, changing my vote to

[X] Lead the Wizards, Knightly Orders, and Asarnil

Captain Hunt · Nov 28, 2020

[X] Lead the Wizards, Knightly Orders, and Asarnil

Rafin · Nov 28, 2020

BoneyM said:
You're asking for answers to huge metaphysical questions that the Colleges cannot even begin to answer.

I guess a better way to phrase the question would be:

As far as Mathilde knows (and given her library) has there ever been a Wizard that, after becoming a Priest, documented actually losing his ability to do Wizardry?

BoneyM said:
Mathlide doesn't know the other Dwarves that could be those witnesses well enough to say.

Mathilde doesn't know Borek well enough either. I was thinking more of the average Dwarf's reaction as Mathilde models one based on her experience with their culture.

In other words, as far as Karaz Ankor social norms are concerned (as opposed to individual Dwarven psychology) what's the priority relation between a) Oaths, b) military commands from a commanding officer and c) verbal contracts, especially when they directly contradict each other and immediate action might be required?

If the answer is "the Dwarf will probably end up Slayer regardless" there might still be a social norm on which he should do first before becoming Slayer.

Edit: To compare, here's my read on how Imperial society would handle this:

Defying your commander to keep a noble promise is something from the realm of fanciful fairy tales where the evil/incompetent commander is clearly in the wrong. In real life obeying your liege lord (or his liege lord) and anyone he deputised to hold command over you is of course more important than any petty promises or mercantile deals you made, especially when those were deals with non-Imperial outsiders. A possible exception are promises and deals towards Dwarves, due to the absolute ruin breaking those could call down upon you and yours, including your liege.
Depending on who you ask, religion might or might not trump all of the above.

My issue is that when it comes to the Karaz Ankor, I don't feel like I have a read on things like I do with the Empire. And I was hoping that Mathilde does and I could learn what it is.

BurnNote · Nov 28, 2020

Rafin said:
It makes participating in cavalry charges more likely.

Ohhh, I hadn't considered cavalry charges! I really want Mathilde to take part in a cavalry charge at some point. Though sadly she doesn't know how to use a lance.

Rafin said:
It gives us a shiny line on our resume for when we have reason to wave it around in the Empire.

Headpats are very good. And I like the possibility that Mathilde can continue building her resume as a skilled commander.

Hmm, the more long-term command she's doing here is something she's not done before. There's not that much to be done, since the logistics get handled by someone else, and the knights are professionals who know what to do. It's actually a pretty good first step in that regard.

Rafin said:
It allows us to divert some knights on our personal errand more easily.

I don't think it makes much difference. I suppose it's a small step.

Actually. @BoneyM The greys are allied with a knight order, which they called for help during the Night of a Thousand Arcane Duels. Now that Mathilde is an LM, can she call on them when there's need? (Not for personal things, but when she needs a bunch of guys with swords to kill something threatening the empire) .

Rafin said:
It lets us play military commander if we want to.

We can already do that. We're both a knight, and a thane, and won some impressive victories. I'm pretty sure Lord Magister is also enough rank to raise an army.

Rafin said:
It lets us better coordinate things like punitive raids, while also making us able to block raiding when we think it is a bad idea even if the knight commanders disagree and Borek could otherwise be swayed by them.

Ehh. I think the scary Grey LM insistently implying he ought to shut up would be enough. And it should be remembered that Mathilde is well respected. They're here on her asking and reputation. If she tells them no, they'll hold to that.

This isn't the case where a rear-line intelligence spook barges in and orders people around for nebolous and suspicious reasons. It's the special forces veteran who asked you here in the first place telling you not for need-to-know reasons.

Total tangent: A modern AU where Mathilde is a tiny special forces veteran. Her weapon of choice is a giant anti-material rifle. Her girlfriend is the lead organizer/scientist of a large agrarian project. Belegar is the CEO of a large mining group, which just got back to the top of the business through a high-risk/high-reward project.
It's only a matter of time until someone tries to kidnapp her dog (though I expect that they'd fail, and then try either the ducklings or Anton).

Gamefreak1ed · Nov 28, 2020

[X] Lead the Wizards and Asarnil

SuperSonicSound · Nov 28, 2020

I have to admit to being a little surprised that anything that came up in the last 5-6 pages convinced people I didn't even think to talk to much about Boreks attitude and views because well I figured that Borek being like that was already part of thread consensus. Dude's got an obsession, this is his make it or break it run for Karag Dum, he's going slayer if he fails.

Guess I shouldn't make assumptions.

Boney · Nov 28, 2020

Rafin said:
I guess a better way to phrase the question would be:

As far as Mathilde knows (and given her library) has there ever been a Wizard that, after becoming a Priest, documented actually losing his ability to do Wizardry?

No. When someone's been zealous enough to discard their College education in favour of a God, they've also been zealous enough to not give away Divine secrets to those outside the Cult they just joined.

Rafin said:
Mathilde doesn't know Borek well enough either. I was thinking more of the average Dwarf's reaction as Mathilde models one based on her experience with their culture.

In other words, as far as Karaz Ankor social norms are concerned (as opposed to individual Dwarven psychology) what's the priority relation between a) Oaths, b) military commands from a commanding officer and c) verbal contracts, especially when they directly contradict each other and immediate action might be required?

If the answer is "the Dwarf will probably end up Slayer regardless" there might still be a social norm on which he should do first before becoming Slayer.

Social norms dictate that the situation should never come up. In theory, no military leaders should be giving commands that could conflict with the Oaths of the Dwarves under them, and Dwarves shouldn't be entering into verbal contracts that could conflict with their Oaths or military obligations. The follow-up question of 'what if they do, though?' takes us right back to 'depends too much on the individual and scenario for there to be a 'typical' reaction'.

Yes, this means that Dwarven social norms provide no solutions to a situation that absolutely can and does happen. That's probably part of why a suicide cult is a major part of the fabric of their society.

BurnNote said:
Actually. @BoneyM The greys are allied with a knight order, which they called for help during the Night of a Thousand Arcane Duels. Now that Mathilde is an LM, can she call on them when there's need? (Not for personal things, but when she needs a bunch of guys with swords to kill something threatening the empire) .

No. They're the final resort for when, say, Altdorf is about to be razed to the ground by an eight-way magical war, not for every time an LM needs a bit of muscle.

Valmond · Nov 28, 2020

SuperSonicSound said:
I have to admit to being a little surprised that anything that came up in the last 5-6 pages convinced people I didn't even think to talk to much about Boreks attitude and views because well I figured that Borek being like that was already part of thread consensus. Dude's got an obsession, this is his make it or break it run for Karag Dum, he's going slayer if he fails.

Guess I shouldn't make assumptions.

Well he did fail in canon and not go slayer, instead he doubled down and did a succesful attempt decades later.
though we have kinda upped the stakes because of additional troops so if this goes wrong then he might end up going slayer.

LilyWitch · Nov 28, 2020

SuperSonicSound said:
I have to admit to being a little surprised that anything that came up in the last 5-6 pages convinced people I didn't even think to talk to much about Boreks attitude and views because well I figured that Borek being like that was already part of thread consensus. Dude's got an obsession, this is his make it or break it run for Karag Dum, he's going slayer if he fails.

Guess I shouldn't make assumptions.

I think people are very used to working with a post reclimation Belegar and have missed the hints from Groti et al

Valmond · Nov 28, 2020

BoneyM said:
Social norms dictate that the situation should never come up. In theory, no military leaders should be giving commands that could conflict with the Oaths of the Dwarves under them, and Dwarves shouldn't be entering into verbal contracts that could conflict with their Oaths or military obligations. The follow-up question of 'what if they do, though?' takes us right back to 'depends too much on the individual and scenario for there to be a 'typical' reaction'.

Yes, this means that Dwarven social norms provide no solutions to a situation that absolutely can and does happen. That's probably part of why a suicide cult is a major part of the fabric of their society.

I would assume the typical reaction would be for everyone involved to shut up, and/or someone having a shave.

Rafin · Nov 28, 2020

BurnNote said:
We can already do that. We're both a knight, and a thane, and won some impressive victories. I'm pretty sure Lord Magister is also enough rank to raise an army.

I meant directly during this very expedition. Commanding knights on how to handle flanks and whatnot from a strategic perspective feels more like playing military commander (even if it's not top commander) than just positioning 13 superunits.

BurnNote said:
Ehh. I think the scary Grey LM insistently implying he ought to shut up would be enough. And it should be remembered that Mathilde is well respected. They're here on her asking and reputation. If she tells them no, they'll hold to that.

She might not know of the suggestion until she hears it alongside Borek on the council. And even if the knight commander is respectful and deferential to us, he will probably not think to privately approach us first before suggesting a bold move that only involves cavalry.

If we command and represent them on the other hand, any such suggestions and plans would always go through us first.

Doomed Wombat · Nov 28, 2020

BoneyM said:
No. They're the final resort for when, say, Altdorf is about to be razed to the ground by an eight-way magical war, not for every time an LM needs a bit of muscle.

Oh...we get to know more about em now that we're a LM?

Cool, this is more curiosity (apologies if this has been asked else where), but who are they? A knight order I know, but IIRC they're one nobody else knows exists and must be a pretty badass one if they're the guys the Greys call on as a final resort.

Obviously, I do not want to use them, as I imagine whatever they are doing they need to be getting on with it etc.

Boney · Nov 28, 2020

Valmond said:
I would assume the typical reaction would be for everyone involved to shut up, and/or someone having a shave.

Or killing someone, or self-exiling. In canon, Gotrek did all of the above.

Doomed Wombat said:
Oh...we get to know more about em now that we're a LM?

Cool, this is more curiosity (apologies if this has been asked else where), but who are they? A knight order I know, but IIRC they're one nobody else knows exists and must be a pretty badass one if they're the guys the Greys call on as a final resort.

Obviously, I do not want to use them, as I imagine whatever they are doing they need to be getting on with it etc.

That information is locked behind Grey College compartmentalized. Algard, Melkoth, and possibly Reiner Starke would know more, but everyone else doesn't need to know, not even LMs. Because if a LM goes bad those Knights might be the solution.

Horium · Nov 28, 2020

@BoneyM How old is Thorek in this quest? He seems to be succesfully flexing on non-Kragg runelords, is it because of talent or age (experience)?

Boney · Nov 28, 2020

Horium said:
@BoneyM How old is Thorek in this quest? He seems to be succesfully flexing on non-Kragg runelords, is it because of talent or age (experience)?

350ish, far from the eldest of the Runelords even if you discount Kragg. It's definitely not just age, he's dedicated his life to uncovering the lost secrets of the Golden Age and has had a fair bit success in doing so.

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Aspiring God

Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal

Let's go Darling!