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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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NexusEye said:
Google tells me that black powder has a density of 1.72g/cm^3 and a barrel(unit) is 42 gallons which is presumably reflective of how much a typical barrel can hold. Putting those together gives us 273.5kg and further googling tells me gunpowder has an energy density of 11.3MJ/kg, for a total energy of 3.091GJ. Even after dividing by three to account for any inferiority in Warhammer-tech gunpowder that leaves 1.03 GJ, almost a quarter ton of TNT. Somehow I doubt even Dwarven designers overengineer their vessels to withstand that kind of energy especially on a civilian ship.
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It's because black powder doesn't detonate, it delflagrates, which tends to leave to incomplete combustion in large amounts and also significantly slows down the shockwave

You can't measure how strong an explosive is by looking at the energy density. Otherwise blocks of coal look like very powerful explosives.
 
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NuclearConsensus said:
Why does the timeline not fit, exactly? Because they ran after a couple of volleys? I've already put forward an alternate hypothesis to answer that, that they spotted the gyrocopter shadowing the Okral, reasoned that reinforcements are likely to show up soon, and booked it.


Like I mentioned, I am entirely on board with scouring the shore first, it makes sense. I am not "obsessed with chasing the obvious diversion." I am pushing back against your seemingly blanket assertion that chasing down the bandits is absolutely useless because they're just patsies.

[X] Scour the river banks for anything the bandits left behind
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It is some element of hyperbole. What I'm ultimately saying is that the gunmen probably aren't going to give us better data than gambling for a piece of the bomb casing or residue.
 
NexusEye said:
Waterproofing is a thing and magic simplifies the trigger mechanism substantially, all you need is a spell to detect when something touches the mine hooked up to a spell that ignites a small flame in the gunpowder compartment.
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Bolded for emphasis.
Master Wizard Mathilde Weber with heroic Learning has expressed that one of the hardest part of a spell is target selection. Look to the Fog Path, which seeks a specific critieria and took a lot of reasoning to work out.

The only trigger mechanisms that'd be working in those circumstances(waterproofed explosives of sufficient yield to penetrate the hull) are actually a very narrow list:
-Chamon enchantment - Most Chamon users in the Old World are Imperial, and certainly you could cobble together a Chamon spell to detect metal and then stoke a fire, they have effects for that. It'd be high end Magister work however.
-High Magic - Only the Elves or Slaan, and in both cases, non trivially.
-Warpstone contact explosive - Rely on Dhar wanting to explode. Yield addressed by warpstone charge
-Bound Daemon/related being - Chaos Dwarf or a skilled Magister with the right secrets to make it work.
-Timed fuse - If you want accurate time, clockwork fuse in a wax sealed container of air and powder, with a flint. If you want cheap, slow burning fuse and drop it into the water just before the monitor reaches.
-Mundane fuse - Ancient china explored this, at this tech level you're looking at using a candle securely mounted to a base, which would topple onto and ignite the charge when knocked over. However, regular choppy water can set it off prematurely.
-Magnetic fuse - You're looking at a Master Imperial Engineer, Dwarf Radical or Skaven at work here, but its possible to improvise a magnetic trigger using a binary explosive. It'd be a masterpiece.

And the thing is...every single one of the above would leave Windsight visible evidence.
 
[X] Scour the river banks for anything the bandits left behind

Find clues for Herr Goldpuncherto cast magic at.

Also: if we go protector on this one, how far do you thing the effect will range? The dwarfs present, The guild, Karaz-a-Karak, or Karaz Ankor?
 
Mopman43 said:
I'm pretty confident the Dwarfs would be taking payment in recompense as well for something like this, so they'd be parting with gold as well. Might be a harder sell.
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qwolfs said:
If you think the Dwarfs would let anyone get away with a free shot, ever, for anything, then I've got a bridge to sell you.


The entire culture of Grudges and Favours would demand significant and comparable restitution. If Marienburg failed to maintain order in its ranks then they owe the Dwarfs restitution to equal out their favor. Killing the ones responsible is insufficient when their laxness allowed the attack in the first place. That's how the system works.
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Valmond said:
I would expect the scapegoat needs to be atleast top leadership level, no "my employee acted on their own", that just means the boss was incompetent, not that they are not responsible.
A councilor is loosing their head, at minimum, and i doubt someone like that would go down silently.

And that is assuming that dwarves don't just fully buy the excuse and go "yes, sounds true, we don't care" and bomb Marienburg anyway because they do believe in collective responsibility to a level humans do not.
Debt of honor is much more transferable among dwarves than humans.
And dwarves may not have super high intrigue, but they are not idiots, allowing this go unpunished is asking for it to happen again.
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Haven't yet read the new update, but I woke up to those replies and wanted to answer them first thing, apologies if something happens in the update that completely destroys my replies.

You guys do understand that you are essentially saying that the War of the Beard could not be averted even if the phoenix king was reasonable, because the Dawi would still hold him accountable and ask him to pay more that he could reasonably pay, yes?

I understand that there are meta reasons saying "Marienburg should pay", but humans were allowed to denounce Dieter IV and avoid consequence according to quest canon, if they do not get proof that contradicts Marienburg's "reasonable" explanation, the Dawi prolly won't ask for much.
 
Asheram said:
Is it possible to tell if a spell was cast around 3-4 hours after the fact? If it is, then we should search for evidence because I doubt anything but a really potent spell could be the reason for the sinking of a Dawi monitor.
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Regular spells, no. Rituals, battle magics, the biggest chonker FC spells, maybe.

BelligerentGnu said:
@BoneyM could we have the guildmaster, or someone else, teach us enough grundlid to communicate with those trapped in sir pockets? I.e., "turn off your lights or we all die"?
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Those on the ship wouldn't know it.

defenestrator said:
@BoneyM Are there any dwarves that specialize in S&R for situations like this? Because I was wondering if we could do a few more trips, only this time we're carrying volunteer rescuers into the wreck that can search for any other survivors.

...or would the theoretical S&R volunteers need to carry a lot of equipment that there's too much chamon that can disrupt Substance of Shadow?
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None currently present. Barak Varr is bringing the big S&R guns, but they're currently three to four hours away.
 
veekie said:
Bolded for emphasis.
Master Wizard Mathilde Weber with heroic Learning has expressed that one of the hardest part of a spell is target selection. Look to the Fog Path, which seeks a specific critieria and took a lot of reasoning to work out.

The only trigger mechanisms that'd be working in those circumstances(waterproofed explosives of sufficient yield to penetrate the hull) are actually a very narrow list:
-Chamon enchantment - Most Chamon users in the Old World are Imperial, and certainly you could cobble together a Chamon spell to detect metal and then stoke a fire, they have effects for that. It'd be high end Magister work however.
-High Magic - Only the Elves or Slaan, and in both cases, non trivially.
-Warpstone contact explosive - Rely on Dhar wanting to explode. Yield addressed by warpstone charge
-Bound Daemon/related being - Chaos Dwarf or a skilled Magister with the right secrets to make it work.
-Timed fuse - If you want accurate time, clockwork fuse in a wax sealed container of air and powder, with a flint. If you want cheap, slow burning fuse and drop it into the water just before the monitor reaches.
-Mundane fuse - Ancient china explored this, at this tech level you're looking at using a candle securely mounted to a base, which would topple onto and ignite the charge when knocked over. However, regular choppy water can set it off prematurely.
-Magnetic fuse - You're looking at a Master Imperial Engineer, Dwarf Radical or Skaven at work here, but its possible to improvise a magnetic trigger using a binary explosive. It'd be a masterpiece.

And the thing is...every single one of the above would leave Windsight visible evidence.
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Do golds have somekind of heat metal spell?
Because if so, i don't think it would be too hard to make an enchantment that, when it comes into contact with more metal, casts heat metal, that then detonates the gunpowder.
 
storryeater said:
Haven't yet read the new update, but I woke up to those replies and wanted to answer them first thing, apologies if something happens in the update that completely destroys my replies.

You guys do understand that you are essentially saying that the War of the Beard could not be averted even if the phoenix king was reasonable, because the Dawi would still hold him accountable and ask him to pay more that he could reasonably pay, yes?

I understand that there are meta reasons saying "Marienburg should pay", but humans were allowed to denounce Dieter IV and avoid consequence according to quest canon, if they do not get proof that contradicts Marienburg's "reasonable" explanation, the Dawi prolly won't ask for much.
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We averted the worst case scenario, Mathilde saved probably two thirds of the passengers in a frankly heroic effort, including the Guildmaster.

It's still a tragedy, yeah, but we probably bumped it down from a 5 Grudge (Loss of critical knowledge and tradition due to the murder of a Guildmaster, you and pretty much your entire Clan are forfeit), to a 3 Grudge (Many Dawi died, someone is going to die for this) If we want to borrow from the scale in Runelord Quest.

Which means that further damage control is possible regardless of what we might find from here on out.
 
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storryeater said:
Haven't yet read the new update, but I woke up to those replies and wanted to answer them first thing, apologies if something happens in the update that completely destroys my replies.

You guys do understand that you are essentially saying that the War of the Beard could not be averted even if the phoenix king was reasonable, because the Dawi would still hold him accountable and ask him to pay more that he could reasonably pay, yes?

I understand that there are meta reasons saying "Marienburg should pay", but humans were allowed to denounce Dieter IV and avoid consequence according to quest canon, if they do not get proof that contradicts Marienburg's "reasonable" explanation, the Dawi prolly won't ask for much.
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War of the Bear was avoidable, but it would have required, among other things, not shaving a diplomat, less kneejerk denials, etc...
Also finding out that, whoops, it was the dark elves (also that there are dark elves).

The whole point of denouncing Dieter IV is that this does denounce the highest office in the empire, not some middle manager.
If this was Marienburg, some councilors are probably going to be needed to satisfy the grudge.
 
veekie said:
-Timed fuse - If you want accurate time, clockwork fuse in a wax sealed container of air and powder, with a flint. If you want cheap, slow burning fuse and drop it into the water just before the monitor reaches.
-Mundane fuse - Ancient china explored this, at this tech level you're looking at using a candle securely mounted to a base, which would topple onto and ignite the charge when knocked over. However, regular choppy water can set it off prematurely.
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On these, I think you'd need very accurate precog to know within seconds when the monitor would pass over the mine. The wind and the currents mean that the arrival time of a river boat, even a dwarven river boat would be too unpredictable. The boat's engine might run at the same rate (and should for maximum fuel economy and minimum maintenance, which I think the dwarves would be prioritising, rather than running down engine life by changing the power setting), but the speed that's achieved would vary depending on unpredictable conditions. You also need very good, very very accurate clockwork, and you need to wind it frequently (which is probably a job for a skilled craftsman), when it's underwater in a piranha infested river.

A mundane fuse wouldn't work for an underwater mine, I think. You'd need a source of oxidant and fuel to keep a flame burning for a long time underwater. A candle wouldn't be enough here.
 
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[X] Scour the river banks for anything the bandits left behind.

Don't know if I voted yet between my cries so here it is just in case I didn't.
 
lancelot said:
Don't dwarves have some type of miners Morse code they can use. Something that will let her tell them to turn off all the lights if she happens to get a response back?
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Probably, but as i said to the previous person who brought it up.
Mathilde is still tired.
She is messing up, let's not roll dice where the worst case scenario is instant death.
Even assuming we could learn it was enough to be of use.
 
Valmond said:
War of the Bear was avoidable, but it would have required, among other things, not shaving a diplomat, less kneejerk denials, etc...
Also finding out that, whoops, it was the dark elves (also that there are dark elves).

The whole point of denouncing Dieter IV is that this does denounce the highest office in the empire, not some middle manager.
If this was Marienburg, some councilors are probably going to be needed to satisfy the grudge.
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I imagine things would have gone quite differently if Dwarves had angry bears attached to their chins.
 
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