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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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SITB said:
Why though? Everyone Mathilde heard talking about it thinks that Alrik is the one in the wrong here, why would Thorgrim get into conflict over this? Because he doesn't force a King to abdicate? ( a power that I suspect Thorgrim only theoretically possess)
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Not necessarily Thorgrim but you could have an internal conflict with dwarf killing dwarf and that would be a tragedy.
 
DragonParadox said:
Not necessarily Thorgrim but you could have an internal conflict with dwarf killing dwarf and that would be a tragedy.
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That would almost certainly be an internal Karak Hirn matter and not something that Belegar can do anything about (and I heavily doubt that Thorgrim could, unless it blows up far later on). You'd probably get grudges declared and the matter would be put to be solved by the usual mechanism of dwarf society before any bloody internal conflict would happen
 
picklepikkl said:
Hmm, actually, I'm changing my vote back. Here's why:

The justification behind Drinks and Dice was "we should make sure she understands how important Ranald is to us, because that's a potential deal-breaker." But we already did that: we told her about how we discovered a shrine to Stromfels and we brought in two Ranaldian priests we knew and one of them died and Ranald sent us a dog. There's no way we got through that conversation without her picking up on the fact that we are absolutely serious about our faith. Sure, we haven't told her about the Divine Mugging, or the study of the Coin, or how he comforted us when Abelhelm died and he didn't intercede more directly, but I don't think we'd be telling her that at this date either. So, with that concern set aside, I see no reason to not just do something we'll both like.

[X] A Picnic in the Fields
[X] A Scenic Hike
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That tells us three things how she feels about our Ranald worship, Surprise that we actually do so, that she refers to him as the god of Sneakiness and Deceit, and that she doesn't have feelings strong enough to get in the way of Story Time. I have no doubt you are right about the fact that she knows of Mathilde's genuine worship, But I want to see how she feels, in depth, about it.

[X] Drinks and Dice
 
SITB said:
Why though? Everyone Mathilde heard talking about it thinks that Alrik is the one in the wrong here, why would Thorgrim get into conflict over this? Because he doesn't force a King to abdicate? ( a power that I suspect Thorgrim only theoretically possess)
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SITB said:
That would almost certainly be an internal Karak Hirn matter and not something that Belegar can do anything about (and I heavily doubt that Thorgrim could, unless it blows up far later on). You'd probably get grudges declared and the matter would be put to be solved by the usual mechanism of dwarf society before any bloody internal conflict would happen
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Everyone agrees that Alrik is in the wrong and that he should abdicate and become a slayer, but he's not doing it. His refusal to redeem his own honour is a growing source of shame that's starting to reach out of Karak Hirn proper to the rest of the dwarven empire, and as seen by Belegar here people are even starting to think there's just flat-out something wrong with the whole clan because of it (and remember, Belegar is downright liberal by dwarven standards). That has the potential to go very badly wrong, because there's only so long dwarves will ignore such a major blot on their honour before they decide to just do something about it. And seeing as dwarves aren't given to half-measures, well...

If the dwarves who snap are from Karak Hirn we might see an internal rebellion against Alrik, and if that succeeds I do not want to find out how the other Karaks would be obligated to respond to the coup. If the dwarves who snap are from another Karak, that could lead to anything all the way up to open civil war. These are definitely worst case scenarios, don't get me wrong, but considering dwarven psychology they're also disturbingly plausible ones.
 
Shovern said:
That tells us three things how she feels about our Ranald worship, Surprise that we actually do so, that she refers to him as the god of Sneakiness and Deceit, and that she doesn't have feelings strong enough to get in the way of Story Time. I have no doubt you are right about the fact that she knows of Mathilde's genuine worship, But I want to see how she feels, in depth, about it.
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Oh sure, by no means do I want to dissuade people who look at Drinks and Dice and go "hell yes, I absolutely want to see this scene." My post was more aimed at the people who, like me (briefly), were worried about The Ranald Thing possibly being a dealbreaker and wanted Drinks and Dice primarily as a form of risk mitigation: bring up the big fraught topic that you know you can't compromise on early, if she runs screaming then it's a bummer but you know it wasn't meant to be. But if the description of the scene makes you go "hell yes" and not just "we really need to clear the air on this," by all means vote for it.
 
Besides, since when is drinking and throwing dice together not a fun date?

On another topic....

"So it's not that this Expedition isn't being supported, it's that those that are supporting it are doing so with goods rather than lives."
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These steam wagons are actually a big deal, aren't they? I mean, they're basically mobile fortresses. What is your average steppe rider even going to do to one? Shoot it with an arrow? Ride up and hit it with their sword? Good luck. Whatever they try, they're under cannon fire / rifle fire the entire time. The actual danger is that the steam wagons break down or get bogged down and have to be abandoned, leaving everyone suddenly incredibly vulnerable and with no means of transporting supplies. Barring that, though, the Kurgan and Hobgoblin Khanates will have no idea how to deal with these things. None. They've never seen anything like it before.

I wonder if in the canon timeline, Borek wasn't even able to get them through the snow-choked pass and was all, "Guess we'll proceed on foot!"

Or if he forced it through that, they got to a river and... "Guess we'll proceed on foot!" (Because how the hell would you get one of these things across a river or a marsh.)

....

I've changed my mind, we should put the Coin on Fog Path. Even if it's overkill, even if it ends up being a waste, it's the single most important contribution we can make if we can show up with that spell.
 
NSMS said:
Whatever the reason for his refusal to abdicate and go slayer, the situation at Karak Hirn gets more and more concerning the more we learn about it. It's one thing to know that people disapprove of Alrik's decision, but to have someone like Belegar- an incredibly radical and non-traditional dwarf- admit that there's something rotten with whole clan and wish he'd just hurry up and go slayer is a major warning sign. It indicates levels of discontent that would mean declarations of war or open rebellion if humans were involved, and while dwarves don't traditionally go for that sort of thing even they have limits. We've all talked about a potential dwarven schism between Thorgrim and Belegar, but I'm increasingly wondering if Karak Hirn might be the flashpoint for such a thing instead.
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NSMS said:
Everyone agrees that Alrik is in the wrong and that he should abdicate and become a slayer, but he's not doing it. His refusal to redeem his own honour is a growing source of shame that's starting to reach out of Karak Hirn proper to the rest of the dwarven empire, and as seen by Belegar here people are even starting to think there's just flat-out something wrong with the whole clan because of it (and remember, Belegar is downright liberal by dwarven standards). That has the potential to go very badly wrong, because there's only so long dwarves will ignore such a major blot on their honour before they decide to just do something about it. And seeing as dwarves aren't given to half-measures, well...

If the dwarves who snap are from Karak Hirn we might see an internal rebellion against Alrik, and if that succeeds I do not want to find out how the other Karaks would be obligated to respond to the coup. If the dwarves who snap are from another Karak, that could lead to anything all the way up to open civil war. These are definitely worst case scenarios, don't get me wrong, but considering dwarven psychology they're also disturbingly plausible ones.
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Well I think that Belegar might be a bit of a biased POV here given that he is best friends with Ulthar and a Radical who dislikes a traditionalists like Alrik. I think it might be a more divided opinion in reality then it appears with some calming that it is shameful Alrik has not taking the oath when he has such a fine heir who was a leader in the glorious reclamation of Karaka-Eight Peaks and other insisting that he did nothing wrong cause otherwise this radical ranger will become king.

Either way I think that a big part of it is definitely that if Alrik is gone he is going to be replaced by his radical son and end his hyper-traditionalist ways. I could easily see Alrik holding on the his throne out of spite to bury his shame and prevent the change he sees coming from happening. The odds on internal rebellion of some kind really depend on how internal support shifts over time and if it ever becomes enough to push him out early but in the end the the problem won't be going away until one of them dies whether it is Alrik taking the oath or just getting unlucky with some Greenskin or Skaven in battle.
 
Briefvoice said:
Besides, since when is drinking and throwing dice together not a fun date?

On another topic....



These steam wagons are actually a big deal, aren't they? I mean, they're basically mobile fortresses. What is your average steppe rider even going to do to one? Shoot it with an arrow? Ride up and hit it with their sword? Good luck. Whatever they try, they're under cannon fire / rifle fire the entire time. The actual danger is that the steam wagons break down or get bogged down and have to be abandoned, leaving everyone suddenly incredibly vulnerable and with no means of transporting supplies. Barring that, though, the Kurgan and Hobgoblin Khanates will have no idea how to deal with these things. None. They've never seen anything like it before.

I wonder if in the canon timeline, Borek wasn't even able to get them through the snow-choked pass and was all, "Guess we'll proceed on foot!"

Or if he forced it through that, they got to a river and... "Guess we'll proceed on foot!" (Because how the hell would you get one of these things across a river or a marsh.)

....

I've changed my mind, we should put the Coin on Fog Path. Even if it's overkill, even if it ends up being a waste, it's the single most important contribution we can make if we can show up with that spell.
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Your average steppe rider was never the main concern when driving into Hell. There are plenty of things in the wastes that are not daunted by steel however thick
 
Briefvoice said:
(Because how the hell would you get one of these things across a river or a marsh.)
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Looking forward to the Very Hard Diplomacy checks to persuade a sceptical Karak Kadrin Engineer to drive his precious Steam Wagon into the fog bank that swiftly materialised over that strange marsh or swiftly-flowing river. :)
Awetduck said:
All the survivors of Ableheims Council have accomplished so much. Can you imagine how much further along they'd be if we were still together?
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I know.
Schultz's road may even have reached Halstadt by now!
Redshirt Army said:
I would legitimately be up for spending some AP figuring out what's happening in Karak Hirn, since it seems to be approaching the threshold where a "tragic accident" might be a legitimately helpful thing to arrange.

After the expedition, of course.
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Picturing Belegar's complex reaction when if we offer that as a project option... :V
 
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NSMS said:
Everyone agrees that Alrik is in the wrong and that he should abdicate and become a slayer, but he's not doing it. His refusal to redeem his own honour is a growing source of shame that's starting to reach out of Karak Hirn proper to the rest of the dwarven empire, and as seen by Belegar here people are even starting to think there's just flat-out something wrong with the whole clan because of it (and remember, Belegar is downright liberal by dwarven standards). That has the potential to go very badly wrong, because there's only so long dwarves will ignore such a major blot on their honour before they decide to just do something about it. And seeing as dwarves aren't given to half-measures, well...

If the dwarves who snap are from Karak Hirn we might see an internal rebellion against Alrik, and if that succeeds I do not want to find out how the other Karaks would be obligated to respond to the coup. If the dwarves who snap are from another Karak, that could lead to anything all the way up to open civil war. These are definitely worst case scenarios, don't get me wrong, but considering dwarven psychology they're also disturbingly plausible ones.
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Why would the other Karaks would be obligated to respond to the coup if everyone agrees that Alrik should step down? Alrik would be considered an incompetent/unfit ruler and his people forced him to abdicate to a more worthy one, it's not like dwarf society has never seen any shitty rulers during their whole existence who have been replaced one way or another without dwarf society collapsing.
 
masterofmadness said:
Well I think that Belegar might be a bit of a biased POV here given that he is best friends with Ulthar and a Radical who dislikes a traditionalists like Alrik. I think it might be a more divided opinion in reality then it appears with some calming that it is shameful Alrik has not taking the oath when he has such a fine heir who was a leader in the glorious reclamation of Karaka-Eight Peaks and other insisting that he did nothing wrong cause otherwise this radical ranger will become king.

Either way I think that a big part of it is definitely that if Alrik is gone he is going to be replaced by his radical son and end his hyper-traditionalist ways. I could easily see Alrik holding on the his throne out of spite to bury his shame and prevent the change he sees coming from happening. The odds on internal rebellion of some kind really depend on how internal support shifts over time and if it ever becomes enough to push him out early but in the end the the problem won't be going away until one of them dies whether it is Alrik taking the oath or just getting unlucky with some Greenskin or Skaven in battle.
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Don't forget Ulthar's own take on the whole situation:
BoneyM said:
"Nobody would give me a straight answer about this whole..." you wave a hand vaguely.

"Of course they won't. Some shames are too great to speak aloud in polite company."
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BoneyM said:
Then during the Expedition, my two more traditional and favoured brothers went out hunting together, and were found days later with their axes tangled in each others' guts, and their bodyguards similarly slain by one another. The only surviving bodyguard blamed the paranoia of the elder before his execution, but some dubious evidence was uncovered in their quarters that suggested the ambition of the younger was the cause."

You wince. Such a tale wouldn't be out of place in human histories, but to Dwarves these events would feel as shameful to them as the reign of Dieter IV was to the Empire.
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BoneyM said:
So records were destroyed and forgetfulness was induced, and everyone who knows better stays silent, and in the privacy of their own minds their respect for my father diminishes with every day he does not travel to Karak Kadrin and take the Oath." Ulthar's face is stony, disgust thick in his tone.
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While he's also not exactly an unbiased source, Mathilde's own internal narration on dwarven policy towards shameful secrets at other points and their canon attitude to things like the existence of chaos dwarves (basically: don't acknowledge them) points to that part part being accurate. And if he's right about that, it's more likely that he's right about the whole thing- Ulthar's at the very least telling the truth as he sees it. That alone is concerning, but now Belegar is expressing the same general sentiments, and since his radical tendencies should make him more accepting of shameful but necessary actions rather than less it indicates to me that there is a very real potential problem in the making.
 
SITB said:
Why would the other Karaks would be obligated to respond to the coup if everyone agrees that Alrik should step down? Alrik would be considered an incompetent/unfit ruler and his people forced him to abdicate to a more worthy one, it's not like dwarf society has never seen any shitty rulers during their whole existence who have been replaced one way or another without dwarf society collapsing.
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There's a big difference between a poor leader dying of old age/in battle/etc and an actively shameful leader dying in a violent internal coup. It's very likely there exist oaths between the holds that would essential force a response in that situation (pacts of mutual defense, oaths to not allow the death of their kin to go unaddressed, etc), to say nothing of how dishonourable and shameful breaking your oaths to your liege to actually perform a coup would be.
 
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But is the problem even Alrik?

Two of his sons murdered each other! Or at least one of them tried to murder the other, and it ended with them both dead. Seems to me that implies the problem goes a little deeper than "bad king".
 
@Jyn Ryvia Regarding our next adventure, I get where you're coming from and also don't see Mathilde staying K8P's Loremaster forever.
But becoming a Stirland baron as a Grey Wizard close to being LM really doesn't sound appealing to me. It's not where our talents lie and it's not very interesting either.
I'd rather work more closely in Grey College internal affairs (coupled with teaching classes and taking an apprentice) or becoming someone's Military advisor or doing the BOAT BOON traveling adventurer thing after all or trying for a position directly in the Imperial Court.
 
Briefvoice said:
But is the problem even Alrik?

Two of his sons murdered each other! Or at least one of them tried to murder the other, and it ended with them both dead. Seems to me that implies the problem goes a little deeper than "bad king".
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Alrik may have murdered them both and framed each other to get Ulthar back in line for the throne? Wild speculation here.
 
Rafin said:
@Jyn Ryvia Regarding our next adventure, I get where you're coming from and also don't see Mathilde staying K8P's Loremaster forever.
But becoming a Stirland baron as a Grey Wizard close to being LM really doesn't sound appealing to me. It's not where our talents lie and it's not very interesting either.
I'd rather work more closely in Grey College internal affairs (coupled with teaching classes and taking an apprentice) or becoming someone's Military advisor or doing the BOAT BOON traveling adventurer thing after all or trying for a position directly in the Imperial Court.
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B O A T is indeed good.

The best possible boon use infact.
 
Briefvoice said:
But is the problem even Alrik?

Two of his sons murdered each other! Or at least one of them tried to murder the other, and it ended with them both dead. Seems to me that implies the problem goes a little deeper than "bad king".
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Probably? From a dwarf perspective the guy had three kids, two of which ended up being kinslayers and the last of which was a horrible radical. The common denominator is Alrik, and dawi focus on ancestry, lineage, and age as being the primary sources of legitimacy and standing means that if all the guys kids turn out to be shameful then the obvious place to look for answers is to their shared ancestry - and Alrik demonstrated poor judgement in exiling Ulthuar early, which wouldn't be too bad on its own but makes him an easy lightning rod for blame in the entire matter.
 
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