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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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BoneyM said:
This is the flip-side of it. As soon as a God gains any prominence, it's a countdown to some major Cult claiming it to be an aspect of their own. For Bylorak, it'd be Taal or Manann. For the rivers, every time one gets popular it starts getting side-eyed by the Cults of Rhya and Manann. It's a bit survival of the fittest at times.
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Interesting. The way Tome of Salvation has it, it's a particular characteristic of the Cult of Taal to militantly eliminate lesser local nature cults, while the other Cults are much more prepared to let nature takes its course and more passively assimilate them as lesser aspects or just let them hang around as part of the broader folk religion.

Notably, for the river spirits, as they're apparently manifest as immensely powerful fey in the material world, I wouldn't like to be the priest that tried to mess around with them...
 
Anyway here's theorycrafting on the best way to actually put Kasimir's theory into practice. People presumably don't really know the old lore for Their Specific Swamp. How do you entreat a god when you don't know their name, or any of their rituals, and you want people to have some actual reasonable confidence its worthwhile to do?
You can't just guess, people aren't gonna trust it and it's a recipe for burgle cults sneaking in. You can't just try to treat Bylorak as a universal swamp god because that's not what they themselves believe Bylorak to be. But assume Kasimir is right, this used be a whole family of gods. What you have people do is entreat Bylorak to entreat the local swamp god to keep claim of the swamp's dead.
This is something that makes sense in the academic "gods are shaped by human belief" view of things and the more widespread belief about how gods work. You know how to contact Bylorak, Bylorak hopefully knows how to contact the local swamp, it all works out and deviation from the Bylorak rituals can be more easily watched for nurglite infiltration. But you also serve to create a belief that Bylorak Is The Swamp God That We Talk To. And maybe in a few generations, people start to leave out the middleman aspects of things and believe in Bylorak as a universal swamp god.
 
[ ] A Shared Meal
It worked out well last time. If it's not broke, don't fix it.
[ ] A Picnic in the Fields
Some are laying fallow with just a thin layer of clover. A perfect setting for a Jade Wizard.
[ ] A Scenic Hike
You're both active people, and the Silver Tarn is supposed to be beautiful. Go for a hike up Karagril and take in the view.
[ ] Drinks and Dice
She seemed shocked to learn you worshipped Ranald. Play a few low-stakes games of chance with her at the Karak's own shrine to Him to introduce her to Him properly.

I want to do all of these.
So, anyone have other date ideas?
Shopping? Touring the farms as Pan tells us about her job? Reading together?
Really drawn towards the picnic atm, though drinks and dice seem nice as well, we're not going to get her blinding drink and fleeze her afterall, some light dice, few beers, and conversation, that's all.
 
On the topic of Kasmir's successor and predecessor:

BoneyM said:
"Tomorrow morning, I'm going looking for Kasmir. If you'll have him, I'll point him in your direction. Even if he never comes, I strongly advise you get rid of the slug you've currently got."

You hold out the flask for her, and she doesn't hesitate before taking it, though she's still careful to not let her fingers touch yours. She grimaces from the burn in the same way you used to. "He has powerful friends," she says doubtfully.

"Unless you mean Sigmar or Luitpold, they're at worst no more powerful than you. You're not a Witch Hunter any more. You're an Elector Countess. You have a Runefang. You have an army. And there are nine other Elector Counts that will close ranks if anyone starts trying to mess with you, simply to prevent the precedent. Don't make enemies needlessly, but if you must, you have the power to be the worst and last enemy they'll ever have."
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Something I very much appreciate about this update is the thread of hope that pervades it. Belegar has newfound hope, thanks to the successful retaking of his home, which is why he's sent Mathilde, to hopefully share that same hope to Karag Dum. The Stirlanders too have a new hope, with the terrors of Sylvania which have so long haunted their waking and sleeping hours being beaten back with fire and sword and Dwarfen artifice. Kasmir has new hope as well, in finding gods who remain as faithful to their followers as the reverse. Good stuff.

I must say that the stuff about the old Fennone gods gave me quite the chill. My house is just on the edge of a large marsh, and with a cold wind blowing in from it's direction Kasmir's words about Hel Fenn had a stronger effect.

Speaking of old gods...
BoneyM said:
"Have you ever heard of Manhavok?" Without thinking you make a gesture to placate the God of Floods, and you frown as you try to remember where you learned it. "Yes, that's the one. God of Floods, only worshipped in Stirland, which always struck me as odd. Everyone knows the gesture and most people know the prayer, even if they grew up in the hills far from the gentlest tributary. But I think I know why.
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Hmmm...
BoneyM said:
The Great Pumps of Morgrim, lost, and now most believe Zhufbar was named for the miniscule waterfall it now hosts, rather than the torrential flash-draining of the Black Water for the mining of its bed, which destroyed the dark and terrible forests that once dominated what was now known as Averland and the Moot long before the arrival of humanity.
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There may have been no men at the time to know of this event, but no doubt the land remembers. I wouldn't be surprised if Manhavok found his beginning in the flood caused by Morgrim's Pumps.
 
mmm I liked all three of those.

Belegar and his thoughts on the Dawi, hopefully he'll be able to encourage more of the legacy of Ironbeard, the Dawi really can't afford to stand alone.

The building of the canal is great just from a reassurance perspective, and its great seeing such a valuable infrastructure project going forward with as much smoothness as these things can.

And Kasmir me oh my...he's come far and I love it. More than that though one of the things I find fantastic about WHF in general is the gods, the pantheons and the mechanics of it all. I like that there are little gods and it feels like a polytheistic religion at least when you get down the nitty gritty. I hate it when it seems like there's only two gods (Sigmar and the Lady) in the setting.
 
[ ] A Shared Meal
It worked out well last time. If it's not broke, don't fix it.
[ ] A Picnic in the Fields
Some are laying fallow with just a thin layer of clover. A perfect setting for a Jade Wizard.
[ ] A Scenic Hike
You're both active people, and the Silver Tarn is supposed to be beautiful. Go for a hike up Karagril and take in the view.
[ ] Drinks and Dice
She seemed shocked to learn you worshipped Ranald. Play a few low-stakes games of chance with her at the Karak's own shrine to Him to introduce her to Him properly.
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Hate Drinks and Dice. Ranald can do his own advertising and recruitment.

The picnic… seems like something Pan is supposed to enjoy and Mathy will put up with so she can spend time with Pan.

While another undistracted character discussion would be nice and would doubtless tell us more about both of them, we have already had the scene.

Going on a hike sounds like it will show a side of Pan we haven't seen in a while.

[X] A Scenic Hike
 
Oh hey, moratorium has been up for, like, twenty minutes. Thanks @Angelform.

[X] A Picnic in the Fields
I like this because it gives her an opportunity to talk about what her work means to her, which is something the thread is very interested in if the passionate debates are any indication. Also, having a picnic in a field of clover is cute as shit.

[X] A Scenic Hike
I like this one because it is an activity we can do together, and "go out and engage in a common interest" is a standard date outline.
BoneyM said:
the steppes and the Choas Wastes
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Choas -> Chaos

(i'm sorry, i'm irrepressible)
 
The moratorium is over, right?

[ ] A Shared Meal
I'd rather do something new on the second date, at least to start with.
[X] A Picnic in the Fields
Like this.
[X] A Scenic Hike
Or this.
Either is fine really.
[ ] Drinks and Dice
While this one is intriguing I don't think it is a good fit for our first proper date date. Maybe next time.
 
BoneyM said:
You think through the rest of your knowledge of the Vampire Wars. "And Grim Moor?"

"Is a bog," he says with a smile. "Is it too holding tight onto Konrad?"

"Another God hidden in a name?"

"Morr, perhaps? Or something like 'Gremmer' that was transliterated into words by outsiders."
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Sounds like Grimnir.

If Grimnir's influence is hanging around a swamp, though, I'd expect there's something important under it. Can't imagine him taking a liking to a swamp for its own sake. Unless that's where he went for the occasional Dunkin.

"Why do you smell like a swamp again?" Valaya grumbled, pointing an accusing finger.

"Got quite a respectable hint of sulphur to it!" Grimnir replied cheerfully.
 
[X] A Picnic in the Fields
I like this because it gives her an opportunity to talk about what her work means to her, which is something the thread is very interested in if the passionate debates are any indication. Also, having a picnic in a field of clover is cute as shit.

[X] A Scenic Hike
I like this one because it is an activity we can do together, and "go out and engage in a common interest" is a standard date outline.
 
mmm @BoneyM's point on the major cults coopting gods in part is not something that can be solved barring a major attitude adjustment to humanity which stops the fanatics and desire to boost their own religion's standing through assimilation.

However, for me it does lead to an interesting question of the division of faith. Faith is if not the food then the power source of the gods, but in essence what's the economics of this?

Can a human only produce faith up to a cap and it is apportioned according to the strength of belief (so out of 100 parts of faith, 80% goes too primary diety, the rest goes to others.)

Or is it independent, with the amount produced also dependent on strength of faith (So 80 again for primary diety, 40 for two secondary deities and so on until you run out of things worshipped.)

How do actions come into this, does being considered part of a pantheon change stuff up...

As we've seen demystifying and economising the hunting of vampires has proven very effective, clearly we need to do the same to commodify the power of human faith to maximise the impact of its investment both in the currently strong gods as well as to aid in the creation of currently non existing human gods!!!!!!

I am partially kidding, I think this would be very neat to learn, but obviously we've no real capacity to ATM.

Redshirt Army said:
... Grimnir? That would be a weird connection...
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Perhaps, but Zhufbar is nearby which is the prime hold of Morgrim and Grimnir was Morgrim's dad. Maybe something picked up from that?
 
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We need to get some dwarfs in on this. Hear me out - they likely have records going back way further than Kasimir has access to, while etymological theology is something at least some of them will have experience in.

@BoneyM
As a Loremaster, is this subject sufficiently within our remit that we could apply some influence to get Kasimir better records?
 
BoneyM said:
Thanks in no small part to Dwarven firepower, the Hunter Count and his successor have been avenging four hundred years of terror and violence that have poured out of Sylvania
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Oh Abel, how I wish you could see this with your own eyes.

... Or with dark magic acting as new eyeballs, I'm not particularly picky.

Dark as Silver said:
Now heres a Sigmarite that Mathilde can get behind.
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No, Kasmir lost the romance vote, remember?
 
Shane_357 said:
We need to get some dwarfs in on this. Hear me out - they likely have records going back way further than Kasimir has access to, while etymological theology is something at least some of them will have experience in.

@BoneyM
As a Loremaster, is this subject sufficiently within our remit that we could apply some influence to get Kasimir better records?
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The Fennones believed the Dwarves to be a sort of bearded Orc, so never had any contact with them.
 
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