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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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egoo said:
Even trips to Sothoryos/Valyria are kinda bad with how they stretch meanderingly - and unlike our first go to either, we currently have next to no plothooks to go into the ancient cities of snek (we were looking for eggs the first time), nor to ancient cities of Valyrians (we were fulfilling Syrax's prophecy the first time).
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I think this pretty eloquently sums up the issues with these arcs.

They are not bad in of themselves, but they meander on far, far longer then their narrative weight warrants, since they usually have no great impact on anything main-plot related. Instead, it's a bit of combat, a bit of exploring, some talking... overall a lot of time spent of things who have no meaning outside the immediate situation, yet they must be covered to allow the arc to go forward. If you go into a dungeon, you will need to set some narrative time aside to actually fill in some background, basic layout and flesh it out somewhat, otherwise it doesn't work as a location, but all of this is basically throw-away narration. I've DMed enough Shadowrun over the years that I can sketch various kind of office and industrial buildings from scratch in lavish detail, simply because I had to map so many of them. Yet all of these maps become meaningless the moment that particular mission is over.

Raiding barrows in the North and Beyond the Wall is actually a good example for why it makes sense to sideline these things. None of these actions made anything world-shattering happen, and a chapter or two are ample to flesh out the setting a bit in these areas. The notable exceptions to that are the firsts (first trip to Valyria, first trip to a plane, first trip to Sothoryos, first trip to the Thenns, and so on), who help world building.

But weeks upon weeks of Yi-Ti... seems I'm not the only one who was less then interested in that. Personally, when I caught up, I skipped most of Yi-Ti since I frankly didn't care. I also skip a lot of side-trips like barrow delving, but with those things, being intrinsically side-stories, it's much less risky to skip it. If you skip 'main'-story, you might miss something important.


Long story short, if you want to see the shadow mage in Lorath poked, ask DP to cover Taena talking to him, but please don't bog down the main story with it by forcing Viserys to micromanage.
 
Azel said:
Long story short, if you want to see the shadow mage in Lorath poked, ask DP to cover Taena talking to him, but please don't bog down the main story with it by forcing Viserys to micromanage.
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That's also my problem with it. While it could be interesting, what's the point of having minions to delegate to if we randomly decide not to use them? This is Teana's purview. Viserys has a bunch of other things to do.
 
egoo said:
The latest PoW trip has shown, that focusing on minor stuff like that really gets us... ah, off the path of the decent narrative, and stretches out beyond any reasonable comprehension.
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Yeah but PoW is just kind of meh, it's just a slightly different variant of standard D&D PoW, maybe with fewer dragons, and slightly different powers, but it's in the end just the PoW, the Upper Planes on the other hand, are one of the main changes in this quest, DP has clearly spent quite a bit of time thinking about the Fall of the Upper Planes, which give exploring Nirvana a good deal more narrative weight, than visiting random PoW cities, the Fortress cities of Nirvana, the Gith warfront, the Daemon invasion points, and the Illithid cities of Nirvana, are all something unique to this quest, and that make it more interesting, than just exploring random planes.

DP has at least for me managed to make the broken Upper Planes seem interesting, it's not just about what we can get there, DP has designed some genuinely interesting places, and I want to see, if they match what information we have on them.

By that same token, interacting with the Fire Whales, is much more interesting, than talking with the Salamanders or fighting the Efreeti there, because the Fire Whales feel new and unique to our adventure, or at least how we interact with them seem unique.
 
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tarrangar said:
Yeah but PoW is just kind of meh, it's just a slightly different variant of standard D&D PoW, maybe with fewer dragons, and slightly different powers, but it's in the end just the PoW, the Upper Planes on the other hand, are one of the main changes in this quest, DP has clearly spent quite a bit of time thinking about the Fall of the Upper Planes, which give exploring Nirvana a good deal more narrative weight, than visiting random PoW cities, the Fortress cities of Nirvana, the Gith warfront, the Daemon invasion points, and the Illithid cities of Nirvana, are all something unique to this quest, and that make it more interesting, than just exploring random planes.

DP has at least for me managed to make the broken Upper Planes seem interesting, it's not just about what we can get there, DP has designed some genuinely interesting places, and I want to see, if they match what information we have on them.

By that same token, interacting with the Fire Whales, is much more interesting, than talking with the Salamanders or fighting the Efreeti there, because the Fire Whales feel new and unique to our adventure, or at least how we interact with them seem unique.
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Small correction, I believe Azel was largely responsible for the design of the celestial planes.
 
tarrangar said:
I thought DP thought the basics up long before Azel became Co-Gm, but Azel helped flesh it out.
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The original idea IIRC was that the celestial planes were sacked millennia ago, and then Azel built on that. I don't know who was responsible for how much, just that the current design of Hellven was Azel's. Particularly the Mind Flayer Lich. That one was pretty fun.
 
tarrangar said:
Yeah but PoW is just kind of meh, it's just a slightly different variant of standard D&D PoW, maybe with fewer dragons, and slightly different powers, but it's in the end just the PoW, the Upper Planes on the other hand, are one of the main changes in this quest, DP has clearly spent quite a bit of time thinking about the Fall of the Upper Planes, which give exploring Nirvana a good deal more narrative weight, than visiting random PoW cities, the Fortress cities of Nirvana, the Gith warfront, the Daemon invasion points, and the Illithid cities of Nirvana, are all something unique to this quest, and that make it more interesting, than just exploring random planes.

DP has at least for me managed to make the broken Upper Planes seem interesting, it's not just about what we can get there, DP has designed some genuinely interesting places, and I want to see, if they match what information we have on them.

By that same token, interacting with the Fire Whales, is much more interesting, than talking with the Salamanders or fighting the Efreeti there, because the Fire Whales feel new and unique to our adventure, or at least how we interact with them seem unique.
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I've enjoyed all of our extraplanar adventures so far, and wish we had been able to do more adventuring on the Plane of Air, as it's the least explored of the Elemental Planes for us. Each plane has been really neat and DP has done some great withholding for each of them, adding details and flourishes not seen in the background material.

I would like to explore some of the others, too, once we have the time, or when we can spare a group of adventurers of high enough level to survive there but who aren't vitally important to Planetosi interests. Maybe the Misfits will be ready to go extraplanar soon?
 
@tarrangar if you want to get your pet project pushed forward its better to get it done as a minor action off screen.

It wont take up any screen time, and if it becomes relevant or important later... well good thing "we" did it. Even though WE didn't.

Thats how I got psychology and angel magic weapon making.

I wanted them to have a broader base and in case they even became critical. They haven't. But if they do become important they are their.

Viserys doesn't have time to do every Idea that crosses his mind personally.

As for planting a heart tree in Hellven? No. We don't need to be there for that.
 
tarrangar said:
I thought DP thought the basics up long before Azel became Co-Gm, but Azel helped flesh it out.
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Duesal said:
The original idea IIRC was that the celestial planes were sacked millennia ago, and then Azel built on that. I don't know who was responsible for how much, just that the current design of Hellven was Azel's. Particularly the Mind Flayer Lich. That one was pretty fun.
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Since others brought it up I might as well confirm it. The Outer Planes merely had some very vague notes about being sacked in an millennia old conflict. DP not having the time and energy to properly flesh all of this out is the OOC reason for the whole "Yrael talks about Heaven"-thing being pushed back so often.

This being an urgent concern at the time, I took that part and fleshed out Heaven, Nirvana and Elysium, with a bit of background on Axis and some high-level politics of Baator.

Which is the reason I generally have to stay very quiet on these topics, as I both know far more then others about the exact nature of the conflict and a lot of pertinent character motivations of the players in that whole shebang.

Hence me mostly only saying something about those places when correcting misconceptions.


Also, listen to @zxzx24. If things are away from the main-plot, I might just be able to convince DP of letting me do a few omakes to cover some stuff I wanted to do. Not the high-level dungeons, but nice background things like Istvar the Blind should be in the cards.
 
Goldfish said:
I've enjoyed all of our extraplanar adventures so far, and wish we had been able to do more adventuring on the Plane of Air, as it's the least explored of the Elemental Planes for us. Each plane has been really neat and DP has done some great withholding for each of them, adding details and flourishes not seen in the background material.

I would like to explore some of the others, too, once we have the time, or when we can spare a group of adventurers of high enough level to survive there but who aren't vitally important to Planetosi interests. Maybe the Misfits will be ready to go extraplanar soon?
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We could send some of our mid level adventurers to assist the Gith, being assist do have a lower challenge rating, than going solo.

Heck depending on how the front is, a company of senior Legionaries might actually be a real help there, at least if we either give them all magic weapons, or grow them a Heart Tree that can make their weapons magic temporarily.

They're clearly not ready for adventuring in the Planes, but they could maybe do the less dangerous parts of garrison duty, in whatever fortresses the Gith have set up.
zxzx24 said:
As for planting a heart tree in Hellven? No. We don't need to be there for that.
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I don't want to plant a Heart Tree in Hellven yet, we can't afford to protect such a Tree at the moment, proper protection for a Heart Tree in Hellven, would be a well balanced group with a combined CR of at least 20, that mean about 6 CR15 creatures, some of which have to be casters, and I'm not comfortable only going for the minimum, so I would want twice that or more, and that's not an expense that's worth it at the moment.

Now growing a Heart Tree in Nirvana is worth it, but we have never been to Nirvana, we need at least basic information before growing the Tree, which is why I'm going to propose, lending some of our B-party members to the Gith.
 
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tarrangar said:
I don't want to plant a Heart Tree in Hellven yet, we can't afford to protect such a Tree at the moment, proper protection for a Heart Tree in Hellven, would be a well balanced group with a combined CR of at least 20, that mean about 6 CR15 creatures, some of which have to be casters, and I'm not comfortable only going for the minimum, so I would want twice that or more, and that's not an expense that's worth it at the moment.

Now growing a Heart Tree in Nirvana is worth it, but we have never been to Nirvana, we need at least basic information before growing the Tree, which is why I'm going to propose, lending some of our B-party members to the Gith.
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Get the necessary numbers from DP. Cause those seem... off

and putting too MUCH protection on something is going to draw trouble towards it.

The old adage. "If somethings worth guarding, its worth stealing."
 
zxzx24 said:
Get the necessary numbers from DP. Cause those seem... off

and putting too MUCH protection on something is going to draw trouble towards it.

The old adage. "If somethings worth guarding, its worth stealing."
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We are afraid a Heart Tree might act as a beacon, causing everything up to small armies to attack it.

Although I should ask DP, how bad losing 1 Heart Tree we had reasonably guarded would be to our rep with the old gods, because if they will just demand 2-3 new Heart Trees to make up for it, then just stationing a dozen CR10 Plant creatures, and 1 CR15 creature to guard it seem enough.

Edit. Azel has confirmed that my calculations were if anything lowballed, so forget it, until we can afford to spend something in the realm of half a million IM guarding the Tree.
 
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tarrangar said:
I don't want to plant a Heart Tree in Hellven yet, we can't afford to protect such a Tree at the moment, proper protection for a Heart Tree in Hellven, would be a well balanced group with a combined CR of at least 20, that mean about 6 CR15 creatures, some of which have to be casters, and I'm not comfortable only going for the minimum, so I would want twice that or more, and that's not an expense that's worth it at the moment.
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You know, if you want to grow the tree outside of Heaven's Shore, 6x CR 15 creatures is already pretty skimpy in regards to defenses.

The wilderness of Heaven is a place where Pit Fiends go missing without a trace now and then. If you want to plant a tree there, I'd suggest the same degree of caution you would apply to growing one in the Abyss.
 
Azel said:
You know, if you want to grow the tree outside of Heaven's Shore, 6x CR 15 creatures is already pretty skimpy in regards to defenses.

The wilderness of Heaven is a place where Pit Fiends go missing without a trace now and then. If you want to plant a tree there, I'd suggest the same degree of caution you would apply to growing one in the Abyss.
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Okay so I wasn't underestimating the place, guess I have to wait until we can assign at least a dozen CR15 creatures to guard it.
 
Duesal said:
Humble them before the Old Gods, force them to pay reparations, figure out how to subvert their religion to become Imperium-friendly, probably kill a few Chosen.
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We might be able to hit 2 birds with one stone there, the old gods seriously want a Heart Tree in Hellven, and it need some serious protection, charging the Seven with protecting a Heart Tree in Hellven, seem suitably humiliating to them, while at the same time being non-public, and if we insist that Lucan is a part of the forces they station there, then we can limit his influence.

Of course that's if we don't end up killing Lucan during the invasion, but I like the idea of making the Seven guard a Heart Tree as their reparations, they are being punished for destroying Heart Trees, having to protect one seem a fitting punishment.
 
Azel said:
The wilderness of Heaven is a place where Pit Fiends go missing without a trace now and then. If you want to plant a tree there, I'd suggest the same degree of caution you would apply to growing one in the Abyss.
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Somewhere in Hellven there is a notice board with quest postings on it, and one of those quest posts is to hunt down whoever has been poaching Pit Fiends.

Strangely, it has garnered little interest in recent decades...
 
tarrangar said:
We might be able to hit 2 birds with one stone there, the old gods seriously want a Heart Tree in Hellven, and it need some serious protection, charging the Seven with protecting a Heart Tree in Hellven, seem suitably humiliating to them, while at the same time being non-public, and if we insist that Lucan is a part of the forces they station there, then we can limit his influence.

Of course that's if we don't end up killing Lucan during the invasion, but I like the idea of making the Seven guard a Heart Tree as their reparations, they are being punished for destroying Heart Trees, having to protect one seem a fitting punishment.
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A man comes up to you in your home after just breaking the door down. They stab you forty-seven times and then crush your head into a thousand tiny pieces, then piss on the corpse and set it on fire, burning your house down and leaving only your tiny ass cabin in the woods out in the country to your grand kids when you used to own a mansion.

Later, down the road, a shady businessman who wears way too many gold wristwatches comes up to your grand-kids and says this chap would make a really good home defense contractor and that they would be more than happy to do the work for free to make up for some previous nastiness, because "it's all in the past".

Not the least cumbersome analogy, but sufficient to the evil of the day, and all that.
 
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tarrangar said:
We might be able to hit 2 birds with one stone there, the old gods seriously want a Heart Tree in Hellven, and it need some serious protection, charging the Seven with protecting a Heart Tree in Hellven, seem suitably humiliating to them, while at the same time being non-public, and if we insist that Lucan is a part of the forces they station there, then we can limit his influence.

Of course that's if we don't end up killing Lucan during the invasion, but I like the idea of making the Seven guard a Heart Tree as their reparations, they are being punished for destroying Heart Trees, having to protect one seem a fitting punishment.
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It is interesting to me that you think that would be enough. They burned down hundreds of trees. We have been told that they can't grow all the trees the Seven burned down in one lifetime. And you think that protecting one tree in the ruins of Heaven is going to change all that. The price you are offering as reparations is so small in comparison to the crimes committed that the Old Gods might actually be insulted by it.
 
Azel said:
Well, if the Abyss is the universes collective asshole, then the Void tore the universe a new one in Heaven.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Goldfish said:
Somewhere in Hellven there is a notice board with quest postings on it, and one of those quest posts is to hunt down whoever has been poaching Pit Fiends.

Strangely, it has garnered little interest in recent decades...
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Maelor, having reached Level 20 and MR 10:
"It's ̵t̕i̡m̛e to ̕c͠ut̨ ͘o͜ff̶ the̛ ͞bìg͢g͢e̴st a͜s̸s͠ ͞the̶r̨e is͢".
 
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