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[X] Politely decline. You'd rather hold onto the artifacts, either for the symbolic value or for later resale. Gain +5 Legitimacy
 
[X] Politely decline. You'd rather hold onto the artifacts, either for the symbolic value or for later resale. Gain +5 Legitimacy.

2 AP for a turn is tempting, but not quite enough - there is an old boat with our name on it! Plus, it'll help our hegemonic ambitions.

Anyway, basically this was a mutual desperate bluff fight between two fighters unable to sustain unlimited warfare are trying to stay ahead of internal tensions and dissent. That's an interesting twist that makes sense.

The Buffalo result was deliciously ironic and cathartic, I got to say.
 
I like Hayes's story, even if it was fairly predictable... RIP his family though once Victoria sees him refuse to come back
 
As the junior partner?

If we have the population, the military power and the economic power (especially food and drinking water power), we won't be the junior partner.

So forgoing 5 legitimacy now for more AP that can be used to feed and integrate the massive surge of refugees we are expecting from Victoria and refurbish our intel services seems to me far superior.

The Liberty Bell and the USS Constitution would be better cared for in New York and I'd much rather claim the mantle of the old US (if we have to) by being the polity that takes care of the American people.

fasquardon
 
[X] Split the difference. New York has the means to better care for some of the more fragile / maintenance-intensive items, but you'd like to hang onto the rest (Gain 1 AP, 2 Legitimacy)
Victoria vanishes under a white sheet as its militiamen are released in barely enough time to get home. Half of the harvest rotted in the fields. Hundreds of thousands of able-bodied young men have perished. There is severe rationing of what little is left. They are a nation so badly hurt it's staggering, and still they need to fight a civil war to its conclusion. At this point, they need peace. They need peace almost as badly as they need food.
wow, Victoria suffered, it will take them a while to recover from this
 
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[X] Agreed. Sell the artifacts from the treaty directly to FCNY, along with the attendant Legitimacy boost. Gain +2 free AP for this upcoming turn.

What is the policy on write ins @PoptartProdigy ? Because I have an idea for a project that involves the refugees and utilizing them as a resource rather than them being a burden. There are several parts to this project. Please note I don't know if this already exists I just found out this quest is continuing and read the Battle of Buffalo and preceding opposition from Farmers.
1) Propaganda- portray this as a liberation of the Buffalonians from Victoria and pick several of the most hateful or the ones who will speak out against Victoria to present to the media or people in general to get them on your side. Essentially anti Victorian and pro refugee propaganda to avoid widespread protests of refugees against each other. Speeches from the President, interviews, community meetings and anything else to get the message out into society.

2) A school campus or an expansion of existing schools for the Buffalonians and other refugees for which you will create jobs in teaching, construction, and administration. The School will teach refugees skills so they can get a job and provide a path to citizenship after background and security checks and fulfilling the required propaganda classes. The classes or some of them will also be used to push anti Victorian propaganda into the minds of refugees. Essentially radicalize people against Victoria.

3) Refugee camps or housing that you will put refugees in. Also involved in construction and administration jobs.

4) Expansion of intelligence apparatus to investigate refugees to check for spies in the refugees and recruit spies from the refugees. Analysts double agents, Sting operations anything that you can think of that spy and intelligence does.

5) During "Peace" utilize Military to conduct patrols and grant intelligence apparatus control over them.

Now There is probably more that can be done but this is essentially check for spies, give a path for refugees to citizenship, get more EDUCATED citizens give the economy a boost and radicalize people against Victoria.
There also flaws in this current idea
1) This will be expensive
2) possible infiltration by spies if Intelligence fails
3) Don't know much more about specifics not good at management or politics

Benefits would be
1) Anti Victorian Radicalization (Debatable if it is radicalization or if radicalization is good. Sorry to anyone who does not like it or makes .)
2) More skilled citizens, more needs for services, more jobs, better economy
3) Potentially averting refugee bomb and civil unrest
 
[X] Agreed. Sell the artifacts from the treaty directly to FCNY, along with the attendant Legitimacy boost. Gain +2 free AP for this upcoming turn.

What is the policy on write ins @PoptartProdigy ? Because I have an idea for a project that involves the refugees and utilizing them as a resource rather than them being a burden. There are several parts to this project. Please note I don't know if this already exists I just found out this quest is continuing and read the Battle of Buffalo and preceding opposition from Farmers.
1) Propaganda- portray this as a liberation of the Buffalonians from Victoria and pick several of the most hateful or the ones who will speak out against Victoria to present to the media or people in general to get them on your side. Essentially anti Victorian and pro refugee propaganda to avoid widespread protests of refugees against each other. Speeches from the President, interviews, community meetings and anything else to get the message out into society.

2) A school campus or an expansion of existing schools for the Buffalonians and other refugees for which you will create jobs in teaching, construction, and administration. The School will teach refugees skills so they can get a job and provide a path to citizenship after background and security checks and fulfilling the required propaganda classes. The classes or some of them will also be used to push anti Victorian propaganda into the minds of refugees. Essentially radicalize people against Victoria.

3) Refugee camps or housing that you will put refugees in. Also involved in construction and administration jobs.

4) Expansion of intelligence apparatus to investigate refugees to check for spies in the refugees and recruit spies from the refugees. Analysts double agents, Sting operations anything that you can think of that spy and intelligence does.

5) During "Peace" utilize Military to conduct patrols and grant intelligence apparatus control over them.

Now There is probably more that can be done but this is essentially check for spies, give a path for refugees to citizenship, get more EDUCATED citizens give the economy a boost and radicalize people against Victoria.
There also flaws in this current idea
1) This will be expensive
2) possible infiltration by spies if Intelligence fails
3) Don't know much more about specifics not good at management or politics

Benefits would be
1) Anti Victorian Radicalization (Debatable if it is radicalization or if radicalization is good. Sorry to anyone who does not like it or makes .)
2) More skilled citizens, more needs for services, more jobs, better economy
3) Potentially averting refugee bomb and civil unrest
Refugees. Are not. Resources.
 
Didn't think we'd do as good as Thanos snap Buffalo! Honestly quite interesting and kinda funny that the Victorians managed to turn a majority vote in their favour into a defeat!

To summarise the Welland campaign from the perceptive of Victoria:



[X] Politely decline. You'd rather hold onto the artifacts, either for the symbolic value or for later resale. Gain +5 Legitimacy.

AP is tempting but I'd assume in the long run these artifacts are going to be finite and only get rarer. So regardless of which way we do legitimacy, we probably want to hold onto and not need them as opposed to 20 years from now potentially regretting this sale.

Plus considering the ruinous state of Victoria at the moment, we have some breathing room to take our time.
 
[X] Politely decline. You'd rather hold onto the artifacts, either for the symbolic value or for later resale. Gain +5 Legitimacy.

Well, the last few updates have been... Interesting to read about. Especially the reactions. Thankfully we can all move on now.

But dear god, that roll of 4 for Buffalo staying in Victoria, that has basically broken even more of their morale than the fact that they're the militarily weaker party around the Great Lakes now already did. Because it was the people of Buffalo being good Victorians like they should have been, and Victoria didn't believe in them and came to purge them with blood and fire.
 
Refugees. Are not. Resources.
You are right I should have phrased it better. Make the refugees Buffalonians included capable of providing skilled labor instead of being viewed negatively and give them a way to make their own lives to reduce drain on resources is what I should have said.

The propaganda is just to avoid anti immigrant and anti war v Victoria stuff.
 
I'm not convinced high legitimacy, or even holding onto national relics, is worth the advantage of selling them to possibly the best people we'd ever find to buy them, people aligned with our values and with a common enemy.

In the far (but that little bit less far with each victory) future where Victoria dies and the nations of America create a union to oppose the machinations of Alexander's Russia, I don't think it will be our +5 Legitimacy that clinched for us the leading position of the Union but the wealth, the infrastructure and network of good relations - things we need APs to advance.
 
Going to recap events for clarity then go into analysis bit by bit. I think there are some things we've collectively overlooked due to quest time dilation and distraction, both positive and negative. I'll go into more detail about that.

After action report: The 'March To Buffalo' Campaign
"Faust complains of having two souls in his breast. I have a whole squabbling crowd. It goes on as in a republic. "

Part 1: A Summary of Overall Events:


A. In Which An Attempt Was Made.

In the aftermath of a successful defensive campaign, the Commonwealth successfully leveraged their position into bringing Victoria to the table. This was done during a position of Victorian weakness- their civil war and recent defeat both worked in the Commonwealth's favor.

After deliberation, the Commonwealth then decided to press their advantage with a crippling and advantageous treaty proposal that included humanitarian, reclamation/self-improvement, public relations, and territorial clauses. This was an undeniably aggressive approach. The Victorians responded with a counter offer of a relatively less advantageous treaty that would reduce the Commonwealth's leverage over them, maintain Victorian ability to cripple other successor states at will, and reduce the Commonwealth's ability to have positive influence on their economy.

At this time, the Commonwealth learned- notably, due to excellent intelligence obtained by their spies in Buffalo- about the weakening of the Loyalist position relative to the Crusaders in their ongoing civil war. This provided the Commonwealth with significant additional leverage to apply at a moment of their choosing, but with unknown effectiveness and shelf life and with the destruction of any negotiations if unsuccessful. Notably, this made the previously theorized canal strike more plausible, but still not sustainable long term.

The Commonwealth elected to press the advantage to the full with relatively favorable odds to attempt to achieve Victorian compliance, with the understanding that the corresponding drawback was a full breakdown in negotiations if it was unsuccessful.

It was unsuccessful and there was a full breakdown in negotiations.

At this point, the Commonwealth had several choices: whether or not to conduct a military strike with the aim of forcing the Victorians back to the negotiating table, and what level of force to commit to such an undertaking. Their understanding at the time was that the canal was perceived to be vulnerable due to the Victorian's ongoing difficulties and was considered indefensible by either faction. Taking it was perceived to be a useful bargaining chip. However, the duration of the campaign would be inherently limited by ammunition shortages to no longer than 2 months. Additionally, the initial landing- and any further campaigning- would require a single unit to hold the beach without support against counterattacks for a single day.

The lightly defended nature of the target was known to allow for a relatively easy initial seizure. Additionally, a success could hypothetically allow for a onwards push to Buffalo, which was not considered to be sustainable but would act as additional leverage upon a successful initial defense. As a side note, the Commonwealth's forces- most of which had previously been committed, making redeployment more complicated- were supplemented by Toledan divisions, still acting independently of Commonwealth support structures.

The Commonwealth elected to send all available forces, including the Toledo divisions. The Commonwealth's own elite "Big Red One" division- an irreplaceable asset and the most readily redeployed of those from the Erie campaign- was tasked with the seizure of the beach.

B. Aggressive Negotiations:

There was no local resistance, likely due to Victorian mistreatment.
The militia tasked with defending the canal were completely ignorant of the implications of Commonwealth scouting.
The weather
acted to complicate matters and was perceived to act as an additional overall time limit offensive operations.

Significantly, the Commonwealth received accurate intelligence on the nature and distribution of effective Victorian militia at the canal and Buffalo.

The assault by the Big Red One was at a disadvantage due to its circumstances and timer, but the militia was unable to capitalize on that effectively, and their defense was ineffective despite a high level of intervention by Victorian political officers.

The canal was taken and discussion was opened with the city of Hamilton. Due to diplomacy and unsubtle threats, the Mayor of Hamilton granted free passage due to the perception of Victorian weakness and ineffectuality, as well as receiving guarantees of safety from reprisal.

The canal had been taken, but there was no Victorian counterattack at this time and no reinforcements were seen, completely contrary to exceptions.

This was seen as a problem.

(Continuing in next post, followed by analysis)
continued summary:
C. Marching Through Victoria
"No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."

At this point, the decision making of the Commonwealth was thrown into uncertainty due to divergence from expectations of the Victorian response. Despite much speculation, the exact nature of the Victorian's plans- if any- and awareness of the situation was unclear to them. Unfortunately, further intelligence about Buffalo or events was not forthcoming, likely due to the mass conscription of the population by the Victorians during their ongoing civil war inadvertently silencing the Commonwealth's eyes and ears in the city.

Given a choice between holding the canal as per the original plan and waiting for a Victorian response, pushing forwards and attempting to seize Buffalo as additional leverage and to deny them rail infrastructure, or to press through Buffalo and to attack New York, the Commonwealth elected to attempt to reestablish defensive lines in Buffalo.

The Niagara was taken without coordinated or successful resistance by the militia against overwhelming, combined-arms force, including uncontested aerial superiority and a mechanized force. The militia were captured or killed.

Then Buffalo was taken.

D. Buffalo
"Peace, Land, and Bread."

There was minimal initial resistance (but some civilian casualties)

The remaining people of Buffalo were coerced into staging a parade for the Commonwealth forces on arrival
. (Depopulation due to conscription was between 30-40%)

This parade was used as cover for a series of armed attacks by aged insurgents using the people of Buffalo as human shields. Buffalo civilian casualties were extremely high at 4,000 but inflicted relatively low cost to Commonwealth military readiness. This was helped by the familiarity of Commonwealth troops with counter-insurgency tactics, at the expense of pursuing any surviving militia units.

The people of Buffalo aided in counterinsurgency efforts after the initial attacks.

Militia musters were seen in Rochester as a presumed prelude to a full counterattack- and it was concluded that further occupations would result in similar attacks.

This had a negative effect on morale, but both the capture of Buffalo and the civilian casualties led to significant domestic backlash from within the Commonwealth itself.

The main party responsible for coordinated criticism was the Commonwealth Farmer-Laborer Party ("Farmers"), due to seeing an opportunity to sway the electorate. They attacked the government as responsible for creating a situation that would lead to casualties and argued that a chance for a favorable negotiated peace had been both possible and neglected. At this time, there were left-wing arguments for peace.

This placed the Commonwealth war effort on another, artificial time limit. It is known that if the Farmers had been able to take control of the government due to continued public disapproval, they would have immediately withdrawn all troops without caveats and accepted the first Victorian peace treaty offered.

This placed the Commonwealth in an uncomfortable position- the prospect of further insurgency and collateral acted as a deterrent to further invasions, a counterstrike was apparently being mustered at Rochseter, the status of wider Victoria was a relative unknown, and there were now three timers on the Commonwealth's military operations: firstly, the imminent onset of winter in as little as a few weeks. Secondly, the ammunition supplies would not last longer than 2 months. Thirdly, the Farmers could potentially seize power if insufficient progress was made to address public concerns, upon which the war would immediately be ended on the most favorable terms for the Victorians and least favorable for the Commonwealth.

Blackwell had responded to the Commonwealth's initial successes by adjusting Victorian tactics, but was hampered by his lack of properly trained troops.
(cont in part 3 later)
 
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[X] Agreed. Sell the artifacts from the treaty directly to FCNY, along with the attendant Legitimacy boost. Gain +2 free AP for this upcoming turn.
 
Going to recap events for clarity then go into analysis bit by bit. I think there are some things we've collectively overlooked due to quest time dilation and distraction, both positive and negative. I'll go into more detail about that.

After action report: The 'March To Buffalo' Campaign
"Faust complains of having two souls in his breast. I have a whole squabbling crowd. It goes on as in a republic. "

Part 1: A Summary of Overall Events:


A. In Which An Attempt Was Made.

In the aftermath of a successful defensive campaign, the Commonwealth successfully leveraged their position into bringing Victoria to the table. This was done during a position of Victorian weakness- their civil war and recent defeat both worked in the Commonwealth's favor.

After deliberation, the Commonwealth then decided to press their advantage with a crippling and advantageous treaty proposal that included humanitarian, reclamation/self-improvement, public relations, and territorial clauses. This was an undeniably aggressive approach. The Victorians responded with a counter offer of a relatively less advantageous treaty that would reduce the Commonwealth's leverage over them, maintain Victorian ability to cripple other successor states at will, and reduce the Commonwealth's ability to have positive influence on their economy.

At this time, the Commonwealth learned- notably, due to excellent intelligence obtained by their spies in Buffalo- about the weakening of the Loyalist position relative to the Crusaders in their ongoing civil war. This provided the Commonwealth with significant additional leverage to apply at a moment of their choosing, but with unknown effectiveness and shelf life and with the destruction of any negotiations if unsuccessful. Notably, this made the previously theorized canal strike more plausible, but still not sustainable long term.

The Commonwealth elected to press the advantage to the full with relatively favorable odds to attempt to achieve Victorian compliance, with the understanding that the corresponding drawback was a full breakdown in negotiations if it was unsuccessful.

It was unsuccessful and there was a full breakdown in negotiations.

At this point, the Commonwealth had several choices: whether or not to conduct a military strike with the aim of forcing the Victorians back to the negotiating table, and what level of force to commit to such an undertaking. Their understanding at the time was that the canal was perceived to be vulnerable due to the Victorian's ongoing difficulties and was considered indefensible by either faction. Taking it was perceived to be a useful bargaining chip. However, the duration of the campaign would be inherently limited by ammunition shortages to no longer than 2 months. Additionally, the initial landing- and any further campaigning- would require a single unit to hold the beach without support against counterattacks for a single day.

The lightly defended nature of the target was known to allow for a relatively easy initial seizure. Additionally, a success could hypothetically allow for a onwards push to Buffalo, which was not considered to be sustainable but would act as additional leverage upon a successful initial defense. As a side note, the Commonwealth's forces- most of which had previously been committed, making redeployment more complicated- were supplemented by Toledan divisions, still acting independently of Commonwealth support structures.

The Commonwealth elected to send all available forces, including the Toledo divisions. The Commonwealth's own elite "Big Red One" division- an irreplaceable asset and the most readily redeployed of those from the Erie campaign- was tasked with the seizure of the beach.

B. Aggressive Negotiations:

There was no local resistance, likely due to Victorian mistreatment.
The militia tasked with defending the canal were completely ignorant of the implications of Commonwealth scouting.
The weather
acted to complicate matters and was perceived to act as an additional overall time limit offensive operations.

Significantly, the Commonwealth received accurate intelligence on the nature and distribution of effective Victorian militia at the canal and Buffalo.

The assault by the Big Red One was at a disadvantage due to its circumstances and timer, but the militia was unable to capitalize on that effectively, and their defense was ineffective despite a high level of intervention by Victorian political officers.

The canal was taken and discussion was opened with the city of Hamilton. Due to diplomacy and unsubtle threats, the Mayor of Hamilton granted free passage due to the perception of Victorian weakness and ineffectuality, as well as receiving guarantees of safety from reprisal.

The canal had been taken, but there was no Victorian counterattack at this time and no reinforcements were seen, completely contrary to exceptions.

This was seen as a problem.

(Continuing in next post, followed by analysis)
forums.sufficientvelocity.com

Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

Victoria Falls The world wakes from a fever dream into a nightmare. Try to find your feet in a devastated North America and find a way to end the dream for good.
continued summary:

(cont in part 3 later)

These are actually really useful reports that concisely focus on the key details - did you learn how to write these in an armed service?
 
@PoptartProdigy what happens if another Polity becomes the new United States? Will we be absorbed into them or something else?
That would depend upon your relations with them.
... actually, I wonder, what would have been the implications of Buffalo residents being middlingly or overwhelmingly pro-leave? Just getting more people out of Victoria? Victoria denouncing the plebiscite as forced at gunpoint? I realize that Poptart might not want to answer what-ifs, but does someone want to try and theorize? It feels weird that rolling so badly seemed to have no negative consequences on us whatsoever.
Well, I'd first advise that you not consider the plebiscite roll as something where you're rolling for success. You were rolling to see what the results were. Now, rolling higher than a hundred in this case wouldn't have meant literally every person in Buffalo tried to leave; it'd mean progressively higher turnout, with an overwhelmingly high response.

But high or low didn't actually correspond to good or bad, in this case. It just yielded a number. And numbers aside, Victoria didn't have any winning plays, once you chose this option.

The higher you rolled, the more people you could've nabbed from Buffalo, since more and more of them would be up for purging.
I don't see word of poptart on any states being repelled, only that less is expected of you?
You have that word now. States ideologically or otherwise opposed to the memory of the Old Country would be repelled from a high Legitimacy state.
Again, I have to ask.

What's stopping the would-be sellers from trying to sell some of the artifacts?

@PoptartProdigy
The fact that they haven't written that in.
Commonwealth Congressional Hall
Monday, January 13, 2076

Congressman John Franklin stood as the Speaker of the House called upon him. The middle-aged Representative leaned a bit more heavily upon his heavy wooden walking stick than he had in times past. His hair looked a bit lighter, his face a bit more lined. The recent events their nation had found themselves involved in had clearly weighed heavily upon him.

"My fellow...my fellow Americans. I know even that title brings baggage some of you are reluctant to hear. Please forgive it, I cannot find another term that is both pithy and all-encompassing. You all know how much I value pith."

His smile is thin, and fades quickly.

"A few weeks ago, the esteemed Representative Webber spoke on the subject of peace and war, the needs of the near and the far. She encouraged us to consider carefully how we treated the conflict with Victoria, our goals in Buffalo. Scant few days later, Victoria sued for peace and accepted our terms. Many in this very room decried her words, and the preceding words of members of the Commonwealth Farmer-Laborer Party. Some even made whispers impinging their character and motivations. Words were said, here and in back rooms. Angry words."

He looked levelly at the others in the Congress.

"The war is done. We have achieved our treaty. I will not demand we never speak of it again, but I ask that all of us seek to avoid 'I told you' declarations, or anything that tries to paint themselves as the Only Wise Counsel. Our fledgling nation has barely come out of its eggshell. Please, do not choke it on infighting. Let us strive to focus forward, addressing the problems in front of us."

A smattering of applause began, and was halted when he slammed his stick to the floor once.

"But."

His expression grew stormy.

"Do not assume, my fellow Representatives, that coalition means unthinking consensus. We work together in blocs and parties and coalitions, but this does not mean we think identically. And the next time I hear accusations, from any group, of their opposition being a danger to the Commonwealth, solely based on a difference of opinion, the results will be...biblical.

Furthermore, I warn now that our state's capacity for violence is not a tool to be used flippantly. I ask that we always consider the potential risks, and costs, of deploying violence on a mass scale. And I ask you not brand those more cautious than you as 'cowards' for having a difference of opinion.

We have a free nation, my friends and comrades. If we can keep it that way."

He sits down.

"The Representative cedes the floor to the Speaker."

The Congressional hall was rather quiet for a bit after that speech...
Canon!
That said, Victoria is going to be cleaning up its own mess for a while, and good luck to them trying to project power west... Buffalo is now at 30% of pre-war population, or so?
After evacuations, around there, yes. The city is realistically non-functional for quite some time.
"I have received word today that a peace treaty has been signed between the Commonwealth of Free Cities and Victoria. When the weather clears this spring, you will all be free to go and you will be returned to Victorian territory. If that's what you want. We would send you home sooner, but with the snow finally dumping down and the lakes freezing over, it just isn't feasible for now." Another murmur. Who wouldn't want to go home?
...actually, this is wrong. I know I gave you this detail, but it's wrong, sorry. I forgot y'all selected the delayed prisoners return. You'll be returning the POWs once the Victorian Civil War is over. If you edit this, I can give this one a canon.

Also: USURPER! USURPER! ;)
What is the policy on write ins @PoptartProdigy ?
Open by default. Unless specified otherwise, write in options freely.
 
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