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I'm gonna repost an old post of Poptart's on how Legitimacy works that I think people will find very useful.
To clarify Legitimacy again: political agendas uncommon in the old America is what causes low Legitimacy. Thus why your Social Democrat state that coalitions with outright Catholic Socialists and uses a Constitution which very deliberately only aesthetically calls back to the USA's Constitution began play with a Legitimacy of -2.

Legitimacy is more or less a distillation of how you are viewed as the United States reborn. Low Legitimacy playthroughs are entirely possible, but in a world where, from day one, I've established there to be a massive tide of American Revivalist sentiment, high Legitimacy does necessarily mean you're going to have an easier time forging a political unit geographically patterned after the old United States. Now, it does restrict you, to a degree; the Mexican Revivalists, with whom you've made official contact now, may not be too enthused about signing on with an explicitly Old United States revivalist movement, for instance. As others have noted, it also means there are certain expectations of a high Legitimacy state, and not merely foreign expectations. You are the United States reborn.

That said, it's slightly strange whenever I see the assumption that low Legitimacy is freeing. At low Legitimacy, you are tapping into no legacy and are dealt with entirely by your own merits -- which does, necessarily, mean that those around you will require a bit more performance to align with you. Witness how you needed to annihilate Victoria's field army and drive them into civil war in order to get your neighbors on speaking terms with you, or to diplomatically annex two city-states (although this is more because you took Hostile Neighborhood, your Legitimacy score didn't help you). As a low Legitimacy state, you are at best something which people have no intrinsic need to care about, and at worst an uncomfortable echo of Victorian ambitions. Of course, it does mean that you are free to build what you like -- be that a pancontinental empire or a state entirely confined to the Great Lakes -- with no particular dissonance with your national myth. You are Serbia, which is located on land once held by the Roman Empire.

And then there's middle Legitimacy, which is broadly where you are. This is...not really the, "I can do what I want!" position, either. In fact, it's relatively unstable. You kind of give people an uncanny valley sort of effect -- echoing the Old Country in odd ways before then turning around and saying, "It is the government's responsibility to provide food, water, and housing for all citizens, and we're also in serious talks with one of our coalition partners to extend that to medical care!" It makes people a little nervous, because they keep wanting to assume that you'll broadly do what America did, and then you come over all socialist. With high Legitimacy, they have expectations, with low Legitimacy, they form their own, but with your present, middling Legitimacy, they half-form some and then get them broken. You are...well, that's the thing. People don't know what you are.

No level indicates how many atrocities you shall visit upon the world. Like, I don't know how more explicitly I can clarify that you can just...not...do that. I have written and deleted this explanation seven times trying to find a phrasing which accurately conveys how simple it is not to commit an atrocity in this quest: don't fucking do it.
So do we want to people to go "yup, that's the United States" (with all the baggage that comes from that) or for people to go "that's not the Roman Empire, that's Serbia" (your national mythos is entirely your own)?
 
I'm gonna repost an old post of Poptart's on how Legitimacy works that I think people will find very useful.

So do we want to people to go "yup, that's the United States" (with all the baggage that comes from that) or for people to go "that's not the Roman Empire, that's Serbia" (your national mythos is entirely your own)?
Serbia Stronk
 
Very relevant parts here and now:
Legitimacy is more or less a distillation of how you are viewed as the United States reborn. Low Legitimacy playthroughs are entirely possible, but in a world where, from day one, I've established there to be a massive tide of American Revivalist sentiment
That said, it's slightly strange whenever I see the assumption that low Legitimacy is freeing. At low Legitimacy, you are tapping into no legacy and are dealt with entirely by your own merits -- which does, necessarily, mean that those around you will require a bit more performance to align with you.
As a low Legitimacy state, you are at best something which people have no intrinsic need to care about, and at worst an uncomfortable echo of Victorian ambitions
No level indicates how many atrocities you shall visit upon the world
 
Very relevant parts here and now:
Cutting sentences in half makes it very easy to distort context, and thus become misleading. It is much better to simply take the whole quote, and bold.

To clarify Legitimacy again: political agendas uncommon in the old America is what causes low Legitimacy. Thus why your Social Democrat state that coalitions with outright Catholic Socialists and uses a Constitution which very deliberately only aesthetically calls back to the USA's Constitution began play with a Legitimacy of -2.

Legitimacy is more or less a distillation of how you are viewed as the United States reborn. Low Legitimacy playthroughs are entirely possible, but in a world where, from day one, I've established there to be a massive tide of American Revivalist sentiment, high Legitimacy does necessarily mean you're going to have an easier time forging a political unit geographically patterned after the old United States. Now, it does restrict you, to a degree; the Mexican Revivalists, with whom you've made official contact now, may not be too enthused about signing on with an explicitly Old United States revivalist movement, for instance. As others have noted, it also means there are certain expectations of a high Legitimacy state, and not merely foreign expectations. You are the United States reborn.

That said, it's slightly strange whenever I see the assumption that low Legitimacy is freeing. At low Legitimacy, you are tapping into no legacy and are dealt with entirely by your own merits -- which does, necessarily, mean that those around you will require a bit more performance to align with you. Witness how you needed to annihilate Victoria's field army and drive them into civil war in order to get your neighbors on speaking terms with you, or to diplomatically annex two city-states (although this is more because you took Hostile Neighborhood, your Legitimacy score didn't help you). As a low Legitimacy state, you are at best something which people have no intrinsic need to care about, and at worst an uncomfortable echo of Victorian ambitions. Of course, it does mean that you are free to build what you like -- be that a pancontinental empire or a state entirely confined to the Great Lakes -- with no particular dissonance with your national myth. You are Serbia, which is located on land once held by the Roman Empire.

And then there's middle Legitimacy, which is broadly where you are. This is...not really the, "I can do what I want!" position, either. In fact, it's relatively unstable. You kind of give people an uncanny valley sort of effect -- echoing the Old Country in odd ways before then turning around and saying, "It is the government's responsibility to provide food, water, and housing for all citizens, and we're also in serious talks with one of our coalition partners to extend that to medical care!" It makes people a little nervous, because they keep wanting to assume that you'll broadly do what America did, and then you come over all socialist. With high Legitimacy, they have expectations, with low Legitimacy, they form their own, but with your present, middling Legitimacy, they half-form some and then get them broken. You are...well, that's the thing. People don't know what you are.

No level indicates how many atrocities you shall visit upon the world. Like, I don't know how more explicitly I can clarify that you can just...not...do that. I have written and deleted this explanation seven times trying to find a phrasing which accurately conveys how simple it is not to commit an atrocity in this quest: don't fucking do it.
 
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[X] Agreed. Sell the artifacts from the treaty directly to FCNY, along with the attendant Legitimacy boost. Gain +2 free AP for this upcoming turn.

I'm not particularly interested in high Legitimacy.

edit: seeing the quote above: I'm far enough on the socialist scale that I prefer low legitimacy, I'm not interested in being the United States reborn. I have no intent to live up to the expectations of being the united states reborn.
 
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It really comes down to what you want to see our nascent nation as and whether you think advantages/disadvantages of whatever level are worthwhile.
 
Cutting sentences in half makes it very easy to distort context, and thus become misleading. It is much better to simply take the whole quote, and bold.
Fair enough and thank you for doing so. The parts selected were the ones that I felt were meaningful to the current situation but the point was never to remove context.

[X] Agreed. Sell the artifacts from the treaty directly to FCNY, along with the attendant Legitimacy boost. Gain +2 free AP for this upcoming turn.

I'm not particularly interested in high Legitimacy.
Diplomacy.

Whatever you want to achieve, throwing away useful tools right before negotiations is not applying those tools effectively.
 
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Canon Omake: Franklin Calls For Civility
Commonwealth Congressional Hall
Monday, January 13, 2076

Congressman John Franklin stood as the Speaker of the House called upon him. The middle-aged Representative leaned a bit more heavily upon his heavy wooden walking stick than he had in times past. His hair looked a bit lighter, his face a bit more lined. The recent events their nation had found themselves involved in had clearly weighed heavily upon him.

"My fellow...my fellow Americans. I know even that title brings baggage some of you are reluctant to hear. Please forgive it, I cannot find another term that is both pithy and all-encompassing. You all know how much I value pith."

His smile is thin, and fades quickly.

"A few weeks ago, the esteemed Representative Webber spoke on the subject of peace and war, the needs of the near and the far. She encouraged us to consider carefully how we treated the conflict with Victoria, our goals in Buffalo. Scant few days later, Victoria sued for peace and accepted our terms. Many in this very room decried her words, and the preceding words of members of the Commonwealth Farmer-Laborer Party. Some even made whispers impinging their character and motivations. Words were said, here and in back rooms. Angry words."

He looked levelly at the others in the Congress.

"The war is done. We have achieved our treaty. I will not demand we never speak of it again, but I ask that all of us seek to avoid 'I told you' declarations, or anything that tries to paint themselves as the Only Wise Counsel. Our fledgling nation has barely come out of its eggshell. Please, do not choke it on infighting. Let us strive to focus forward, addressing the problems in front of us."

A smattering of applause began, and was halted when he slammed his stick to the floor once.

"But."

His expression grew stormy.

"Do not assume, my fellow Representatives, that coalition means unthinking consensus. We work together in blocs and parties and coalitions, but this does not mean we think identically. And the next time I hear accusations, from any group, of their opposition being a danger to the Commonwealth, solely based on a difference of opinion, the results will be...biblical.

Furthermore, I warn now that our state's capacity for violence is not a tool to be used flippantly. I ask that we always consider the potential risks, and costs, of deploying violence on a mass scale. And I ask you not brand those more cautious than you as 'cowards' for having a difference of opinion.

We have a free nation, my friends and comrades. If we can keep it that way."

He sits down.

"The Representative cedes the floor to the Speaker."

The Congressional hall was rather quiet for a bit after that speech...
 
it was a pleasure working on revising the Buffalo plan with you, @QTesseract


:)
That it was.


[X] Politely decline. You'd rather hold onto the artifacts, either for the symbolic value or for later resale. Gain +5 Legitimacy.

I don't feel strongly about this, so I don't have much skin in the game with this vote, but I think on the margins this result comes out as more preferable.
 
[X] Politely decline. You'd rather hold onto the artifacts, either for the symbolic value or for later resale. Gain +5 Legitimacy.

As much as i love the idea of getting more stuff to do, with the AP I would also like to remind people about our deal with California, we have to acknowledge their breakaway from Alexander and russia. Having legitimacy would help us in future dealings with them as well. Being recognized as the midwest government instead of those guys we helped once would be good to have.

furthermore having legitimacy means that we could be seen as a functioning government with ideals than a state struggling to survive.
 
[X] Politely decline. You'd rather hold onto the artifacts, either for the symbolic value or for later resale. Gain +5 Legitimacy.
 
[X] Politely decline. You'd rather hold onto the artifacts, either for the symbolic value or for later resale. Gain +5 Legitimacy

Long game, yo.
 
[] Politely decline. You'd rather hold onto the artifacts, either for the symbolic value or for later resale. Gain +5 Legitimacy.

As much as i love the idea of getting more stuff to do, with the AP I would also like to remind people about our deal with California, we have to acknowledge their breakaway from Alexander and russia. Having legitimacy would help us in future dealings with them as well. Being recognized as the midwest government instead of those guys we helped once would be good to have.

furthermore having legitimacy means that we could be seen as a functioning government with ideals than a state struggling to survive.
Oh, I hadn't thought of that. Having higher legitimacy probably helps reinforce California's revolt once we declare our recognition of them. Especially if we reveal that we've been working with the NCR from the start (with NCR's permission of course).
 
Victoria Negaverse is probably thinking that we lured them via 4D chess while in reality we desperately flailed with 1D checkers.
 
[X] Politely decline. You'd rather hold onto the artifacts, either for the symbolic value or for later resale. Gain +5 Legitimacy
 
[X] Politely decline. You'd rather hold onto the artifacts, either for the symbolic value or for later resale. Gain +5 Legitimacy.

I get the feeling we need to scrape for every AP we can get, but unless I am somehow completely off base we have multiple different sources of AP growth coming in for the next turn. There's the +2 DoDev AP from reparations as well as 1 or 2 AP (probably free) from integrating Detroit/Toledo. Selling the artifacts gives a one-time bonus of 2 AP, which is nice but unless someone can craft a compelling narrative in which Victoria recovers and bucks the treaty inside 2 and a half years we don't really have a time crunch. We don't need to scrabble in the dirt and sell our cultural relics for cash desperately needed to keep ourselves alive.
 
[X] Politely decline. You'd rather hold onto the artifacts, either for the symbolic value or for later resale. Gain +5 Legitimacy
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Thors_Alumni on Feb 4, 2020 at 3:53 PM, finished with 195 posts and 83 votes.
 
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