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[X] Politely decline. You'd rather hold onto the artifacts, either for the symbolic value or for later resale. Gain +5 Legitimacy

Changing my vote. With the Midwest Conference coming up we might have better payoff from getting more legitimacy.

We are at 0 plus an unknown amount we gain from trashing Victoria. Putting a 5 increase on it should increase our legitimacy as a successor state enough to start pulling in various little statelets around us into joining the Commonwealth.

We can also do that via sorting our economy and turning ourselves into a very functional state.
 
[X] Politely decline. You'd rather hold onto the artifacts, either for the symbolic value or for later resale. Gain +5 Legitimacy.
 
Also the vics were running on empty. Our biggest enemy was our own understanding of the situation.
Honestly...yeah, I'm not sure Victoria as is had a win condition here based on a military response. The mercs? Internal truce?
Now that I think of it, the thing we probably "missed out" on is the Free City of Buffalo gaining independence from Victoria and naturally becoming our ally (and probably a member of the Commonwealth soon/eventually). The flipside of that, we'd have had to defend said ally from attacks where it's extremely logistically inconvenient to impossible to do so, so perhaps it's a good thing that failed.
 
[X] Agreed. Sell the artifacts from the treaty directly to FCNY, along with the attendant Legitimacy boost. Gain +2 free AP for this upcoming turn.
 
Huh. That would actually put us within spitting distance of the FCNY in terms of legitimacy.
Yeah, if we keep the artifacts we're pretty close to dethroning FCNY as "the most legitimate successor of the old USA." Personally, I don't value that highly, but if people do value that, they deserve to have accurate numbers.

Here's the relevant snippet from the Rules screen:
Legitimacy is how credible your claim of being an American successor state looks. Radical departures from old American ideals obviously tarnish your image as a successor. As a Revivalist movement rather than an established faction, you begin with -2 Legitimacy (it'd be worse if you were Resistance, because hoo boy). In general, Legitimacy is something I compare between factions; it comes into play when people are trying to decide what they think of you.

The faction with the highest Legitimacy (currently New York) is the benchmark; anybody short of that is viewed as meaningfully less legitimate as a successor of the old USA. This, incidentally, is why New York is the favorite charity case for old American allies but gets nothing from the rest of the world; old allies liked how things were when America had a pulse, and they want to keep the thing that most resembles it around. In case of future revival, you know? Meanwhile, the rest of the world doesn't remember America fondly enough to care to invest in a city squatting under a sword of Damocles.

That said, Legitimacy is most useful to a strict Revivalist faction. If you actually want to build something intensely different from the old system, low Legitimacy is beneficial to you over the long term, assuming you go about this remotely honestly. Low Legitimacy means that people let go of some of their preconceptions. You clearly aren't a USA successor, so nobody expects you to act like one. While it also means some will be inclined to see you as illegitimate usurpers, it clears your plate of having to play a part you may not necessarily want to play.

Neutral Legitimacy, which in practice is, "Less than the Free City of New York's, but not critically so," means that, as a faction, you really just fail to stand out. You're another faction emerging out of the chaos. Neither the old Country born anew nor some radical, (potential) dark mirror of Victoria.

I wouldn't recommend trying to game this too hard; Legitimacy shifts constantly as other factions make decisions, and given the nature of the system, the value of a single point of the stuff won't stay stable. It's meant to quantify your polity's RP comparative to others', not serve as a super-crunchy stat. That said, at game start, FCNY leads the rankings with Legitimacy 9, and Victoria is the bottom finalist with Legitimacy -12.

As far as Legitimacy has mechanical effects, it happens at higher levels. Any faction that hits Legitimacy 25 gains international recognition as the rightful successor to the United States of America, gaining free casus bellis on all territory once held by the former United States. Low Legitimacy does not have a similar threshold, but again, it's better if you intend to build something different.
 
[X] Politely decline. You'd rather hold onto the artifacts, either for the symbolic value or for later resale. Gain +5 Legitimacy.

Hard choice but to be honest an important factor is not just the bonus legitimacy to the commonwealth but also less legitimacy to NY. While NY is nice, I would much rather us have even legitimacy with them. If we give them the artifacts they will be much, much higher legitimacy than us and also more than halfway to 25.

Still a hard choice though.
 
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Thank fuck. That went far better than I had hoped. I still fear we will ooc take the wrong lessons from this, but we got the maximal treaty, which is very good for us.

[X] Agreed. Sell the artifacts from the treaty directly to FCNY, along with the attendant Legitimacy boost. Gain +2 free AP for this upcoming turn.
We need the cash and AP way more than we need the legitimacy.
 
Also, my big take away is that many, we would have saved ourselves so much trouble if we had had a better intelligence network. Granted, I don't blame us, the high-malus start has left us with a strong position and we've cleared away our malus's, but defiantly something I want to get on soon. Not least of which because I want to know when Victoria is going to break this treaty.

God yes. Blackwell was bluffing the entire time, and we had no solid evidence. If we'd had an inkling beyond inferring from public info we could have done this much more easily.
 
[X] Agreed. Sell the artifacts from the treaty directly to FCNY, along with the attendant Legitimacy boost. Gain +2 free AP for this upcoming turn.
 
[X] Agreed. Sell the artifacts from the treaty directly to FCNY, along with the attendant Legitimacy boost. Gain +2 free AP for this upcoming turn.

Not too invested in legitimacy. APs seem pretty good.

Whatever would have happened to Buffalo would not have been our fault. Seriously, don't let Victoria gaslight you into feeling guilty for their atrocities. We are not responsible for them being fucking monsters.

They would be morally culpable but we would be the ones consequentially causing it. If someone has a hostage and the cops run in, causing the hostage taker to shoot, the cops fucked up. They're the professionals who should know better. We were the cops and the citizens were the hostage. It doesn't change who's guilty for the death, but it changes whether our tactic is the correct one to save lives. It worked out, which is great, but we still sacrificed lives of civilians to get our full treaty and we should remember that.
 
The baubles of the past have values in a diplomatic conference... which we're going to attend next update. And doing well there will end up giving us more resources so there's that. Don't let the allure of AP distract from the hidden gains.

I just am of the opinion that people who have good life without the fear of starvation's n trumps artifacts any day of the week.

In the end, the country can gain legitimacy by many means and if seen in terms of Civilization, IMHO a economic, diplomatic or military victory trumps a culture victory.

Not because culture isn't important, but because if feel that we should stick with our initial premise to care for the welfare of the Commonwealth's citizens.
 
Update: We are not, in fact, currently at -2 Legitimacy. We're at 0. The Status Screen does not take into account our +2 from our decision regarding the Declaration of Independence wherein the Free City of NY recognized us as the legitimate government of our constituents. I confirmed this with the QM.

So keeping artifacts would bring us to 5, selling the artifacts would keep us at 0 and push FCNY to 14.

oh nice.


[X] Agreed. Sell the artifacts from the treaty directly to FCNY, along with the attendant Legitimacy boost. Gain +2 free AP for this upcoming turn.

my gameplan is to get someone else to 25 then voltron with them. so I see this as us getting 2 free AP to further our diplomatic aims.
 
God yes. Blackwell was bluffing the entire time, and we had no solid evidence. If we'd had an inkling beyond inferring from public info we could have done this much more easily.
We may not have had the evidence in character, but out of character we did have it.

Poptart told us that if Victoria attacked, there wouldn't even be a roll on how badly they got destroyed.
Poptart also told us that that last attack killed of all but a handful of Victoria's retired forces.
 
Thank fuck. That went far better than I had hoped. I still fear we will ooc take the wrong lessons from this, but we got the maximal treaty, which is very good for us.

[] Agreed. Sell the artifacts from the treaty directly to FCNY, along with the attendant Legitimacy boost. Gain +2 free AP for this upcoming turn.
We need the cash and AP way more than we need the legitimacy.
Not really, remember we have the Midwest Conference coming up. Having more legitimacy may help us start the process of absorbing various revivalist states in the Midwest much more easily. The Seaway clause and the War Reparations will be a big boost to our action numbers in the first place.
 
[X] Politely decline. You'd rather hold onto the artifacts, either for the symbolic value or for later resale. Gain +5 Legitimacy

Changing my vote in light of new info.

Not having extra 2 AP will suck, tho.
 
25 Legitimacy isn't a win condition: all it means that the holder is the one who gets to claim to be the real heirs to the USA, with all the good and bad that entails.
Some states will be drawn to join a high Legitimacy faction. Others will be repelled.

Not really, remember we have the Midwest Conference coming up. Having more legitimacy may help us start the process of absorbing various revivalist states in the Midwest much more easily. The Seaway clause and the War Reparations will be a big boost to our action numbers in the first place.

This assumes our neighbors are going to be Legitimacy chasers themselves. Some probably will be, some will be turned off.
 
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We can also do that via sorting our economy and turning ourselves into a very functional state.
Thing is, 2 AP for a single turn is too ephemeral of a gain when one recalls that the DC90 treaty that we just won will give us more AP to play with. Last turn was vicious for our AP Allocation, true, but that's more because we're trying to strike a lot of iron while they are hot. Now? Now we can ease the pedal a bit and sort our internal affairs with relative ease.
 
[] Politely decline. You'd rather hold onto the artifacts, either for the symbolic value or for later resale. Gain +5 Legitimacy

Changing my vote in light of new info.

Not having extra 2 AP will suck, tho.
True. But we can get massive legitimacy dump after California revolts by revealing the Declaration of Independence. Which will both give us legitimacy and force Russia to split its attention between Sister Cali and us and thus make it less effective. With the legitimacy gain we get from this we might be able to get the Midwest Conference to benefit the Commonwealth more than it already would.
 
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25 Legitimacy isn't a win condition: all it means that the holder is the one who gets to claim to be the real heirs to the USA, with all the good and bad that entails.
Some states will be drawn to join a high Legitimacy faction. Others will be repelled.
I don't see word of poptart on any states being repelled, only that less is expected of you?


Actually why aren't the sellers voting to split the difference and sell enough of the artifacts for 1 AP? It has a little of both.

Anyway, back at a computer and writing that after action report now.
 
Thing is, 2 AP for a single turn is too ephemeral of a gain when one recalls that the DC90 treaty that we just won will give us more AP to play with. Last turn was vicious for our AP Allocation, true, but that's more because we're trying to strike a lot of iron while they are hot. Now? Now we can ease the pedal a bit and sort our internal affairs with relative ease.

I'll still take it over legitimacy, personally, since I don't actually value legitimacy that highly.
 
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