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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Crake said:
I would say then that we should refrain--as to the fact that they would literally just be third circle casters and we can already produce those without thorny theological issues or metaphysical chains tying us down.

When we can reroute it through our Imperial God, we will likely also have enough Mythic Tiers to make it worth it.
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Given that the Imperial God isn't happening until we're MR 10 or something this could be years of us just ignoring that Viserys can grant cleric spells to followers. That's a pretty central theme to the Mythic Path that I'm against flat out avoiding.
 
DragonParadox said:
Would you guys mind if we just have a two part day today and I get back to fixing up the front page in the time I would have written the last update of the day? It really needs a lot of updating.
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Of course, dude.

We've already had two great updates today and you worry about not giving us a third... ;)

You spoil us, DP.
 
Duesal said:
Given that the Imperial God isn't happening until we're MR 10 or something this could be years of us just ignoring that Viserys can grant cleric spells to followers. That's a pretty central theme to the Mythic Path that I'm against flat out avoiding.
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The alternative is accidentally becoming a God and ignoring Yss warning that we could accidentally give ourselves a lobotomy by straying off the path.

Flat no.

We need to be careful here.
 
Crake said:
The alternative is accidentally becoming a God and ignoring Yss warning that we could accidentally give ourselves a lobotomy by straying off the path.

Flat no.

We need to be careful here.
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You're ignoring the obvious solution -- just reject the worship.

The Old Gods are pros and have been doing it for millennia. I'm pretty sure they'd be happy to teach us.
 
Duesal said:
You're ignoring the obvious solution -- just reject the worship.

The Old Gods are pros and have been doing it for millennia. I'm pretty sure they'd be happy to teach us.
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This is a subject that's uncomfortable to talk about without a lot more IC knowledge about this issue, so we should just resolve to work out all the details and research the potential problems with our pet Deities before actually moving forward with anything or granting our spells.
 
Crake said:
This is a subject that's uncomfortable to talk about without a lot more IC knowledge about this issue, so we should just resolve to work out all the details and research the potential problems with our pet Deities before actually moving forward with anything or granting our spells.
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I can agree to getting all relevant intel IC. It's this notion of preemptively shutting down such an important aspect of our Mythic Path that I'm objecting to.
 
Should be information we can get from the OG through Bloodraven with relative ease.
 
@Duesal, @Crake, I think we need a compromise here.

Side A) Getting worship is bad (because metaphysical bullshit), and telling people "We are not a God" won't exactly work.

Side B) Clerics, even limited by 3rd circle, are fucking useful, and we can't ignore them for anywhat as long as Imperial Deity being made will take.


Say, what about we set up another organisation in the Empire?
One that will, ah, "carry the power of the Emperor", or something.

Basically, we need to:
a) ensure we don't get worship (and connected unneeded metaphysical weight) from them
b) ensure our resident Snek doesn't mind.

First can be managed via a bit of brainwashing applied, and strict monitoring of all "clerics".
Second, well, we don't know enough to even guess tbh.

After these two, we are pretty much golden.

Edit: ah, ninja's so hard
 
egoo said:
@Duesal, @Crake, I think we need a compromise here.

Side A) Getting worship is bad (because metaphysical bullshit), and telling people "We are not a God" won't exactly work.

Side B) Clerics, even limited by 3rd circle, are fucking useful, and we can't ignore them for anywhat as long as Imperial Deity being made will take.


Say, what about we set up another organisation in the Empire?
One that will, ah, "carry the power of the Emperor", or something.

Basically, we need to:
a) ensure we don't get worship (and connected unneeded metaphysical weight) from them
b) ensure our resident Snek doesn't mind.

First can be managed via a bit of brainwashing applied, and strict monitoring of all "clerics".
Second, well, we don't know enough to even guess tbh.

After these two, we are pretty much golden.

Edit: ah, ninja's so hard
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I'm really paranoid about making a mistake here since the consequences could irrevocably fuck our character arc, but because of that bias I will keep my peace on it until we are actually discussing the details.
 
Crake said:
You are denying that we may just have to if we are risking our long-term plans.

That's problematic.
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I'm sorry... How am I doing this, exactly?

You pointed out that worship was a problem and brought up not getting clerics at all until the Imperial Deity is finished, and I brought up the Old Gods' method of simply rejecting worship which we could master to avoid divinity.

You then said you were uncomfortable with discussing this without IC investigation and I agreed with investigating IC, explaining that I didn't like that we were considering shutting it down OOC without looking into it.

I had an issue with blindly rejecting it. If we do our research and it proves to be infeasible then that's that.
 
Duesal said:
I'm sorry... How am I doing this, exactly?

You pointed out that worship was a problem and brought up not getting clerics at all until the Imperial Deity is finished, and I brought up the Old Gods' method of simply rejecting worship which we could master to avoid divinity.

You then said you were uncomfortable with discussing this without IC investigation and I agreed with investigating IC, explaining that I didn't like that we were considering shutting it down OOC without looking into it.

I had an issue with blindly rejecting it. If we do our research and it proves to be infeasible then that's that.
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Agreed with that then.
 
I have made a personal resolution not to shut down discussions anymore, it's a bad habit I picked up out of concern for discussion getting too heated, but in this case I really do think it's best to pause the Viserys granting spells discussion until there is more IC information on that this would mean and the metaphysical implications.

This is not me being worried about the tone of the conversation in thread. It's simply that I think there just are not enough pieces IC to have meaningful discussion.
 
Crake said:
I'm really paranoid about making a mistake here since the consequences could irrevocably fuck our character arc, but because of that bias I will keep my peace on it until we are actually discussing the details.
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Ah, but you need not to shy that bias away from me -

FOR I, TOO, SHARE IT.
Ahem.

We don't know we'd be able to grant spells IC yet.

Mythic path is.. really not the sort of thing decided on beforehand, at least fluff-as-written.

We are in a neat loophole because of medium's format.
We should really wait before having the discussion Ic, imo.

Edit: what is up with ninjas tonight, jeez, shutting up.
 
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I am a anthropomorphized ninja army. :ninja: :ninja: :ninja:

Useless while in concentrated amounts, but deadly when diminished and unexpected... :ninja:
 
DragonParadox said:
So it was that on the seventh day of his stay that the septon went among the septs, and there were many more besides the grand one that the Dragon had chosen to raise, and there he found much of what Brother Lucan had feared, men of little learning mingling the faces of the Seven with foreign gods and saying that you could worship half of the Seven and half some other Power, but he found much of what had been hoped for but not thought of. Men and women of charity and great heart, virtue not only among those who had been lowly and wished to raise up those whose sorry state they recalled all too well, but among those of means also, knights, merchants and master craftsmen. Wealth and ease had not made the folk forget virtue and instead chase after more of it paid in the blood of their fellows, it made them give with an open hand as they had seen their King do time and again, and not just for his greatness but for their lives to be better.
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Since when can't you worship both the Seven and another god, isn't the agreement that you may do that, part of whatever accordance, that allowed them to coexist with the old gods?
Tomcost said:
Another, less lucky Septon that went to observe Best Snek's temple:

"That misguided soul is about to perform an iredeemable sin"

"Excuse me sir, I'm about to sacrifice this goat to know if my son should travel to Tyrosh today or wait until tomorrow. I want him to be as safe as possible. One never knows with the weather these days."

"You are ending a life to satisfy your selfish needs!"

"Well, yeah, would you like me to simply eat the goat? This way at least the Snake will tell me if my son will be safe."

"You are satisfying the hunger of an eldritch being, buying favors in blood"

"Sir, I bought the goat. The blood has already been paid for. And if I were to instead buy cooked goat chops, I would have still paid for its death. It was raised for that. Or are you less evil for simply murdering them for food instead of divining the safety of your relatives?"

"..."

*Back at Westeros*

"Lucan, I can't do this mission. They are using logic!"
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Do the Seven's rules actually forbid animal sacrifice? I mean the commandment might say no blood sacrifice, but if every actual example of parables in the Sevens holy books about the evils of blood sacrifice, focus on the sacrifice of people, then you could argue that the holy texts, actually don't have much to say about sacrificing animals.
Artemis1992 said:
I guess that will change soon.
With our next Mythic Tier it would simply be wasteful not to have Clerics of Viserys and while we propably could forbid worship of us, I see little reason to do so.
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We might choose to have Clerics, but we wont choose to have priests, there's a difference, our clerics would be people who bound themselves to us for power, they wouldn't be expected to preach about our divinity to anyone, and they would be at least permitted if not encouraged, to also be normal worshippers of another religion, so as to see to all their afterlife needs.

So all in all they will be more like concept Clerics, and as far as I know, it's not impossible to both be a concept cleric, and an ordinary worshipper of a god, the gods after all don't all demand to be first in your heart, to give you entrance to their afterlives.

And we have good reason to forbid worshipping us as a god, Yss is one of our major allies, and he hates false gods, we don't want to be a god, so permitting worship of us as a god would cost us with him, though of course they're welcome to worship us, in our role as champion for various religions, seeing as if they worship us as Yss most valued ally, they are still ultimately sending their worship to Yss.
 
[X] Recieve the report on what happened to Hardhome and what was causing Bloodraven's birds to malfunction.
 
tarrangar said:
Since when can't you worship both the Seven and another god, isn't the agreement that you may do that, part of whatever accordance, that allowed them to coexist with the old gods?
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The coexistence of the Seven and the Old Gods in the Seven Kingdoms has always leaned more on secular practicality than theological argument. In places like the Riverlands where that coexistence was most obvious the kings were also weakest and more concerned with balancing his nobles against one another than doctrine. Then came Aegon who said 'I don't care what you worship, I'm now king, and yes I'm married to my sisters, got a problem with that?'

That is not to say there aren't septons who preach peace and understanding, but they generally do it on he basis of 'we are all human together, peace is better than war and if you want to convert someone use words not the sword'.
 
DragonParadox said:
Would he? That would prove to be a rather thorny theological issue. On the one hand their theology says 'demons are beyond redemption' on the other it says 'seek to bring all you can into the light'. So what happens if you can make someone not be a demon?
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I only just now realized how brilliant the "enemies of humanity" category is.

It helps sidestep the thorny issues of what precisely one would consider a demon.

Are deep ones demons? Hags? Evil dragons? Undead? Efreeti?

Drawing that kind of line can get your ass in a lot of trouble.
 
tarrangar said:
Since when can't you worship both the Seven and another god, isn't the agreement that you may do that, part of whatever accordance, that allowed them to coexist with the old gods?
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No, what allowed them to coexist was when Andal kings finally got tired of trying to invade the North by land or sea and subsequently getting their asses kicked. This led to a sort-of-truce which lasted until the present day, and was based mostly on the understanding that both parts would keep to their lands.
 
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Do we actually have to frame it as worship? Religions have all kinds of different mechanisms for expressing faith, and not all of them explicitly call on the god in question. Plenty of ceremonies touch on what they represent or interact with, and call on them through implication.

We could create our clerics, but have them "pray" for spells by filling out a paperwork in what they want and why or something similar. They don't need to explicitly refer to Viserys except possibly as a final "send off for approval " step. Framed correctly, we could get people to see it as Viserys literally loaning spells to people instead of a form of worship without damaging the system.

Given how little the public knows about magic, a Sorcerer king handing out magic powers makes about as much intuitive sense as a regular one handing out swords.
 
065tdsa said:
No, what allowed them to coexist was when Andal kings finally got tired of trying to invade the North by land or sea and subsequently getting their asses kicked. This led to a sort-of-truce which lasted until the present day.
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It's a bit more complicated than that. There are Old God worshipers in the Riverlands and even the Vale (the Royces and a few other Houses with First Men origins). It does bear noting that in the Riverlands there are also smallfolk who kept to the Old Gods though the Andal invasions where in the Vale you were either a noble or a clansman driven onto the heights. As is often the case with history the answer is... it's complicated.
 
[X] Goldfish

BronzeTongue said:
Do we actually have to frame it as worship? Religions have all kinds of different mechanisms for expressing faith, and not all of them explicitly call on the god in question. Plenty of ceremonies touch on what they represent or interact with, and call on them through implication.

We could create our clerics, but have them "pray" for spells by filling out a paperwork in what they want and why or something similar. They don't need to explicitly refer to Viserys except possibly as a final "send off for approval " step. Framed correctly, we could get people to see it as Viserys literally loaning spells to people instead of a form of worship without damaging the system.

Given how little the public knows about magic, a Sorcerer king handing out magic powers makes about as much intuitive sense as a regular one handing out swords.
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So ballsy, I love it. I expect it to fail (D&D requires sincere belief and devotion to get divine spells) but trying it would be so amazing.
 
DragonParadox said:
It's a bit more complicated than that. There are Old God worshipers in the Riverlands and even the Vale (the Royces and a few other Houses with First Men origins). It does bear noting that in the Riverlands there are also smallfolk who kept to the Old Gods though the Andal invasions where in the Vale you were either a noble... of a clansman driven onto the heights. As is often the case with history the answer is... it's complicated.
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Pretty sure there's no non-clansmen Old Gods worshipers in the Vale. There's First Men houses like the Royces who are not out of touch with their roots, but they were all forced to convert back in the day and are only now actually going to change back.
 
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