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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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I want to see what havoc two Anvils of Doom working in concert can cause, so bad.

@BoneyM Since Mathilde isn't the commander-in-chief anymore, will we be able to manage the wizards in the coming battle turns?
 
DocMatoi said:
hmmmm. the caldera is 2 km across. 2 squared kilometers is roughly .77 square miles.
assume some reduction for the caldera not being a regular polygon, but we can probably still fit the entire waaagh into the caldera.
Article:
At 10 people per square meter, that means we can fit 1,000 people in a 10-by-10-meter square. 54,000 people can fit in an American football field, and 26 million people – about the population of Scandinavia – can fit into one square mile, Urban writes.

77% of 26 milllion is 20020000. we can reduce this further for size differences between humans and orcs.say, by another 10%. that brings us down to 18 million orcs in a 2 km square. reduce it again because the caldera is not a regular shape. we can still fit like 10 million orcs in the caldera if theyre tightly packed.

What I'm trying to say here is, there is a lot of room for them to spread out, so it might be hard to get them to bunch up for effective gazulifying
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Your math here is off. The straight-line distance between the West Gate and the Citadel is 2km; the Caldera is roughly a semicircle with radius 2 km (assuming the Citadel is as far from the north and south borders as it is from the western one), which puts it at about six square kilometers in area. Ten people per square meter is, like, people packed like kindling; a square meter is not a lot of space. I'd been working with an estimate of 1.5 orcs per square meter for my napkin math, which would put 400,000 orcs in about a quarter of a square kilometer; we can fit the entire Waaagh inside the Caldera twenty times over and have room to spare.

We don't actually need them to bunch up for Gazulifying, though. The shadow of Karag Nar is wide enough to hit a whole bunch at once; we could, for instance, zap ones outside Karag Zilfin and Karag Yar at the same time. I am confident we will hit every single one that is outside the blind spots in the initial strike.
 
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We know where warboss is gonna be stationed at. Lets piss him off by blowing his ride via gyrochopper and having the chopper kite him all the way to Lhune.
 
I'm still pretty iffy on Hold tbh. Possibly because of Belegar's presentation of it as "this is the pragmatic option that will inflict the greatest free attrition on the Waagh despite going against Dwarven doctrine and giving up entire Karags". We're going to lose those mountains either way so I feel like arguments of "it's going to take more lives to retake those mountains than it will to defend it" are a little moot. There is a limited amount of time that they will be more vulnerable to artillery storm, but after they break through then the advantage disappears and they will have an easier route to our Defend At All Costs lines. Inflicting the explicitly noted morale/manpower hits just feels more valuable than that temporary advantage. I see the argument, it isn't unreasonable, but sticking by Withdraw.
 
[X] FIRST LINE: Caldera
[X] SECOND LINE: Hold
[X] THIRD LINE: Eastern Valley
 
ChronOblivion said:
I'm still pretty iffy on Hold tbh. Possibly because of Belegar's presentation of it as "this is the pragmatic option that will inflict the greatest free attrition on the Waagh despite going against Dwarven doctrine and giving up entire Karags".
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That was Withdraw though. Hold is the Dwarf doctrine one.

ChronOblivion said:
I'm still pretty iffy on Hold tbh. Possibly because of Belegar's presentation of it as "this is the pragmatic option that will inflict the greatest free attrition on the Waagh despite going against Dwarven doctrine and giving up entire Karags". We're going to lose those mountains either way so I feel like arguments of "it's going to take more lives to retake those mountains than it will to defend it" are a little moot. There is a limited amount of time that they will be more vulnerable to artillery storm, but after they break through then the advantage disappears and they will have an easier route to our Defend At All Costs lines. Inflicting the explicitly noted morale/manpower hits just feels more valuable than that temporary advantage. I see the argument, it isn't unreasonable, but sticking by Withdraw.
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Plus Withdraw likely means giving up the Underway to Karak Drazh entirely and having a Warboss and a prominent Big Boss in charge and rampaging through the Underway. I don't particularly like those odds since we do not know what the numbers down there actually are.
 
DocMatoi said:
hmmmm. the caldera is 2 km across. 2 squared kilometers is roughly .77 square miles.
assume some reduction for the caldera not being a regular polygon, but we can probably still fit the entire waaagh into the caldera.
Article:
At 10 people per square meter, that means we can fit 1,000 people in a 10-by-10-meter square. 54,000 people can fit in an American football field, and 26 million people – about the population of Scandinavia – can fit into one square mile, Urban writes.

77% of 26 milllion is 20020000. we can reduce this further for size differences between humans and orcs.say, by another 10%. that brings us down to 18 million orcs in a 2 km square. reduce it again because the caldera is not a regular shape. we can still fit like 10 million orcs in the caldera if theyre tightly packed.

What I'm trying to say here is, there is a lot of room for them to spread out, so it might be hard to get them to bunch up for effective gazulifying
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A square 2 km across is 4 square km, not 2
But I do agree with your conclusion, the entire Waaaagh could probably fit in the Eye's dead zones. That's a pretty big issue, because the dead zones is probably where they will want to be (as it's where they can assault Karagril and the Citadel).

ChronOblivion said:
I'm still pretty iffy on Hold tbh. Possibly because of Belegar's presentation of it as "this is the pragmatic option that will inflict the greatest free attrition on the Waagh despite going against Dwarven doctrine and giving up entire Karags". We're going to lose those mountains either way so I feel like arguments of "it's going to take more lives to retake those mountains than it will to defend it" are a little moot. There is a limited amount of time that they will be more vulnerable to artillery storm, but after they break through then the advantage disappears and they will have an easier route to our Defend At All Costs lines. Inflicting the explicitly noted morale/manpower hits just feels more valuable than that temporary advantage. I see the argument, it isn't unreasonable, but sticking by Withdraw.
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The Hold strategy gamble on whether or not we can kill off the Waaagh before they can break through our defensive lines at Karagril and Karag Mhonar: if we reach a point where the Third Line of defense is necessary (ie, if we stand to lose Karags) then we have pretty much already lost.
The Withdraw strategy on the other hand accepts to lose Karags in order to inflict damage through attrition, so it's very likely that the decisive battle will be in the Third Line.
So the big difference between the two is where you put your artillery: over the Caldera, or over the Eastern Valley.
 
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ChronOblivion said:
We're going to lose those mountains either way
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I don't actually believe this. I think it's pretty likely that, if we choose to hold the line and keep the orc forces trapped in range of the citadel, that they will not be able to break through before our double runelord + heavy artillery + air support devastate them. Given the limited frontage of the mountain entrances and the fact that the Waaagh will have just had a sizable portion of its constituents blotted out by the Eye of Gazul, I am pretty sure we can break their morale.
 
Hopefully Mors being destroyed will help Belegar feel better about realpolitik. If the Dwarves adapted somewhat, they could use Skaven treachery to their advantage. If it is in a given clans best interest to screw over another clan in a way that helps the Dwarves, they will almost always do so. So the Dwarves just need to get good at creating such incentives. With a hundred years of seasoning, Belegar would be an excellent candidate for high king.
 
[X] FIRST LINE: Caldera
[X] SECOND LINE: Withdraw
[X] THIRD LINE: Eastern Valley

Withdraw is by far the superior option and i don't know what is possessing people to attempt the futile and bloody task of trying to hold the mountains.
 
primemountain said:
I think the optimal plans here are:

[ ] Plan Melt Everything and killzone them:
-[ ] FIRST LINE: Caldera
-[ ] SECOND LINE: Hold
-[ ] THIRD LINE: Eastern Valley

The trouble with the other Third Line is that it gives up Karagril, and thus gives up the tunnel. So they can get reinforcements.

I think we kill them in the Caldera, telling everyone to hold them there. Then hold them with Arty and Two Anvils of Doom and the Golem, while Mat gets to the Citadel. Since if they are attacking at dawn/before noon the citadel shadow will fall on them anyway. When does the Sun hit the Citadel anyway @BoneyM ? How much after dawn?

Could we arrange for someone to move the Sun up a bit(nothing really precise) just so it hits the citadel, so we can hit the stuff besieging it when we ask?

Idea here is we melt the Caldera, We melt the core under the citadel and hold the rest. With their core gone, arty starts pounding them in the back, and so do all the archers who were busy before it.

[ ]Plan Lose the will to fight:
-[ ] FIRST LINE: Western Gates
-[ ] SECOND LINE: Withdraw
-[ ] THIRD LINE: Underway

This is the "Every step of the way, you will spill no blood, and here, have a way home."

By the time they hit the third line, they'll be pissed and frustrated, having taken horrendous loses for nothing. And it will be fortified like nothing else, with that much heavy fire and so small a front. Elites excel there. This is the delay, assassinate and cause mayhem route.

Main issue with plan two is they have 800k snotlings. They can eat traps for days.
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It is kind of a funny idea; have some engineer man the Eye, then have Belebro pull a fighting retreat from one side of the Karak to the other in the north and have Matilde do the same in the south. Thorek and Kragg play the drums on their Anvils to the tune of orcish screams in the Citadel.

It does mean we will end up with half the Karags lost again, but it preserves our forces almost entirely intact. And that's what Belegar cares about.
 
ninjafish said:
Withdraw is by far the superior option and i don't know what is possessing people to attempt the futile and bloody task of trying to hold the mountains.
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I strongly dislike this style of posting where you say you don't know why people are doing things, when it is very easy to find justification just by flipping through the pages. You don't need to read all the posts, just control F for "hold" and see what people are saying.

For instance, there is my post covering brief arguments about why I think Hold is good literally three posts above yours, on this page.
 
picklepikkl said:
I strongly dislike this style of posting where you say you don't know why people are doing things, when it is very easy to find justification just by flipping through the pages. You don't need to read all the posts, just control F for "hold" and see what people are saying.

For instance, there is my post covering brief arguments about why I think Hold is good literally three posts above yours, on this page.
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All those justifications are wrong though.

I picked withdraw.

I am never wrong.

Therefore, withdrawing is the objectively correct choice.

Duh. :V
 
ninjafish said:
Withdraw is by far the superior option and i don't know what is possessing people to attempt the futile and bloody task of trying to hold the mountains.
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We have to hold somewhere. If the Orcs are channeling Mork in the slightest, trapping the mountains would just lead to dead Snotlings.
 
BungieONI said:
That was Withdraw though. Hold is the Dwarf doctrine one.


Plus Withdraw likely means giving up the Underway to Karak Drazh entirely and having a Warboss and a prominent Big Boss in charge and rampaging through the Underway. I don't particularly like those odds since we do not know what the numbers down there actually are.
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Yeah "it" was intended to refer to Withdraw, twas unclear.

Also, the Drazh Underway is currently ahead of our Last Line.

BoneyM said:
As for the rest of it, we can hold Kvinn-Wyr with a quarter of the Undumgi, about the same for Huzkul and the Karak Drazh Underway,
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BoneyM said:
"The point where we fight to the end is further in. The Citadel can hold for a century if need be, but it's not only the Citadel that we must defend. Karag Lhune and Karag Nar must be defended, as well as maintaining some link between them and the Citadel to prevent defeat in detail, either the Underway or the Eastern Valley. So the final line will be either the Underway at two points, between Karagril and Lhune and between Kvinn-Wyr and Mhonar, which gives us the smallest possible frontage but moves most of the fronts underground, or pull out of Kvinn-Wyr altogether, which forces us to contest the Eastern Valley to keep the Citadel connected but brings the entire battle above-ground, and thus vulnerable to gyrocopters and the Eye of Gazul."
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If that Underway route is going to be overrun by the Waagh, it is going to happen either way because we are gonna probably give ground there regardless.
 
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