Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
This conversation reminds me of the adage penny wise pound foolish. Skimping on a few points of favour when we definitely earn more is silly. Once we get our runic weapon thats it were not replacing it potentially ever. Our lab if favouf is useful can always be upgraded by spending further favour. A weapon can't. We would have to fork out a different whack of favour.
 
Off the top of my head I like the 12 greatsword idea too and figure that if we do get either Kragg or Thorek making it, they'd probably both be willing to make a sword but since Kragg has already made us one thing my instinct is that he'd hesitate and Thorek would capitalize and as you say @Alectai "hold his nose".
 
[X] This is Dawongr Weber's money. The funds will largely go projects within the Karaz Ankor - your tower for one, but also investing in the Undumgi or Ulrikadrin, or purchasing goods made by Dwarven artisans or sold in the markets of Barak Varr.

[X] Karag Nar penthouse
[X] Karag Lhune secondary peak
[X] Und-Uzgar

[X] There's a growing concentration of royalty here. Get to know King Kazador, and this 'Sky-Thane' Prince Gotri.
[X] You're going to have a rough time explaining your windfall to the Bursars. Better to get that over with.
[X] Join Karak Azul as they raid and scout in force the other portions of the Karak.
[X] King Belegar is allowing you to use the King's Armoury. Recover your extant study materials from Stirland and tuck them away safely in there.
[X] Convince Esbern and Seija to stay long enough to hatch the supposedly Lustrian eggs and study and possibly train whatever hatches.
 
This conversation reminds me of the adage penny wise pound foolish. Skimping on a few points of favour when we definitely earn more is silly. Once we get our runic weapon thats it were not replacing it potentially ever. Our lab if favouf is useful can always be upgraded by spending further favour. A weapon can't. We would have to fork out a different whack of favour.
Seriously. Like if people want to dish out for a weapon, it makes no mechanical sense to not put out atleast as much favor as we spent on our belt, when we're litterally SURROUNDED with more chances to get Dwarf Favor. We can literally take an action next turn to Scout 8 Peaks and probably get a good 2-4 Favor from that depending on the intel we bring back. Holding back and saying we need Favor for Instructors and for our Tower is ridiculous when we're probably going to focus on our research backlog first of all, and our Tower can be upgraded piece by piece.
 
Orc Hewer gave us a flat +3 to our Martial score. Whether that's good enough or not, I leave up to the thread.

...actually, framing it as a numbers thing is foolish. Nothing our unnamed belt gives us is statistically modeled.

Fake edit: Turns out on the character sheet the belt's been named Belt of the Unshackled Mountain. Which TBH is a really badass name.
 
Your argument here is that the super relic won't paint a target because we already have super relics
Um yeah? Best way to predict the future is look at the past. We already have a lot of sweet stuff, and it hasn't caused any problems, so based on that I think that sweet stuff doesn't cause problems. (Or, because I don't want to be misunderstood, not anywhere near as much as some people are afraid. At some point it might come up, but even then it won't be just gone. It certainly causes less than it solves.)
Getting Kragg to put together a personal warding scheme in our tower to make magical research and experimentation safer isn't going to be something we can buy with silver.

Pretty sure that getting Hero-level instruction in pretty much anything isn't happening without favor, either.

And I think we can do a lot more with those things than we can with the difference between a 12-favor and 25-favor weapon.
It's already been said, but for easier magic we'd want college or elf. Maybe if we want a magical dead zone, but that's for storage, not research.

And hero level instruction will happen without favor. Markus was a hero, and so was Gustav. Whilhelmina as well. If somebody likes us personnaly, it won't cost favors. And I'm damn sure that at least Ulthar likes us enough (Incidentally, Rangers frequently use greatweapons, so that's not an issue). We might have to pay to learn how to shoot a rifle, but that would be at most 1 dwarf favor (because hiring a hero to teach a total noob is kinda pointless). And even then, just asking Belegar if he can swing somethin so we can assassinate better is a better first option.
That said, I'm not against it in principle, I just think we should use the free possibilities first.
 
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We can of course pile together massive numbers of favors in whatever combinations we please, but that seems empty of flavor and meaning. If we commission a cool item I want it to be something that we take advantage of all the excellent flavor materials which this quest has provided to come up with something that easily lends itself to writing up as something we can love.


This made me think of another problem. A weapon (or other item) worth 20 favours or so is an incredible object. Considering our 15-favour belt, a 20 favour object would be such a masterpiece normal runesmiths might break down in tears when they see it, because they will never be able to match it. (Okay, maybe this is a bit hyperbole, Mir you get my meaning).
However, would a master runesmith even consider producing such an object for someone who isn't a master in his craft? I mean imagine you are Kragg the Grim, and some human comes up to you -no matter how well respected they are- and asks for a weapon that you might even refer to as "adequate". Would you create such an object for them if they are anything less than adequate in handling it?


Tldr: Mathilde is a good swordswoman. However, would a master runesmiths even make a weapon worthy of legend for anyone less than legendary in skill?
 
This made me think of another problem. A weapon (or other item) worth 20 favours or so is an incredible object. Considering our 15-favour belt, a 20 favour object would be such a masterpiece normal runesmiths might break down in tears when they see it, because they will never be able to match it. (Okay, maybe this is a bit hyperbole, Mir you get my meaning).
However, would a master runesmith even consider producing such an object for someone who isn't a master in his craft? I mean imagine you are Kragg the Grim, and some human comes up to you -no matter how well respected they are- and asks for a weapon that you might even refer to as "adequate". Would you create such an object for them if they are anything less than adequate in handling it?


Tldr: Mathilde is a good swordswoman. However, would a master runesmiths even make a weapon worthy of legend for anyone less than legendary in skill?
Yes. Because we're respected enough for them to do so. If we spend 20 Favor on a item we're going to get that Item. BoneyM isn't going to be a asshole and go 'Nah the new super shiny you just cashed in favors for is hidden behind a paywall skill barrier.'
 
For easier and more powerful Ulgu casting, we want elf.

For Wind-neutral magical scientific instruments, we want dwarf.

We're currently voting for the Tower as a place to do science to magic, yes?

Yes but tools cost gold not favours. Favours are for things we cant throw stacks of cash at like runic items and training from hero characters that arent our friends.
 
For easier and more powerful Ulgu casting, we want elf.

For Wind-neutral magical scientific instruments, we want dwarf.

We're currently voting for the Tower as a place to do science to magic, yes?
I kind of doubt that. Dwarf know very little about the winds, we know nothing about runes. Our styles just don't really intersect. You wouldn't ask a astronomer to built you a particle accelerator. Even if they study the same fundamental system, they do it radically different ways, and different perspectives, and most importantly, different tools.
 
This conversation reminds me of the adage penny wise pound foolish. Skimping on a few points of favour when we definitely earn more is silly. Once we get our runic weapon thats it were not replacing it potentially ever. Our lab if favouf is useful can always be upgraded by spending further favour. A weapon can't. We would have to fork out a different whack of favour.
I find this argument a bit.. hmm. If we take it as "spend favor to get something" there is very little to no difference between getting a weapon now and getting an upgrade later, and getting a lab now and getting an upgrade later, besides the fact its a lab and/or a weapon.

If we have a favor income and we want to trickle upgrade our lab we can, potentially. It is very easy to assume that if it starts at "height of normal dwarf craftsmanship" with only "famous craftsmanship" and "legendary mindboggling craftsmanship" above it for an example scale, then those higher levels are going to require saving favor. Its the same with a weapon, if we put in "greater than runefang levels" now, we should need to spend at "legendary Belt equivalent" and "One of the most amazing weapons ever" amounts of favor whenever we want to upgrade it.

As our reputation increases both of these sets of costs will decrease similarly, or at least should since dwarf rep increasing involves a blanket lowering of favor prices.

The other difference is that we get an entirely new weapon and not an entirely new lab.
 
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For easier and more powerful Ulgu casting, we want elf.

For Wind-neutral magical scientific instruments, we want dwarf.

We're currently voting for the Tower as a place to do science to magic, yes?
But the tower is something we can upgrade over time. I want a big weapon purchase to commemorate the victory; I see a tower as something that is more representative of us gradually putting down roots in the area as we become more and more invested in the hold's success, if that makes sense.
 
[Joined the Expedition: +1]
[Battle of Und-Uzgar: +2]
Taking a watchpost without a fight and causing many deaths to Skaven +2.
[Battle of the East Gate: +4]
Defeating enemy heroes in battle +4.
[Battle of Karag Lhune: +12]
Sabotaged the Doom Divers +2, assassinating the Warboss +2, tripping the troll trap +4, preventing disaster in the Chiselwards +4.
[Battle of Karag Nar: +5]
Assassinating the Warboss +2, sabotaging Idol of Gork +3.
[Battle of the Citadel: +8]
Countering the Shamans +4, dispelling the Waaagh-field that empowered the Orcs +4.
[Grudges Avenged: --]
Nullified by Belegar-Thorgrim troubles.
[Finished the Expedition: +3]

Alright, let me try to chop this up different ways.

Direct martial accomplishments:
Taking a watchpost without a fight and causing many deaths to Skaven +2.
Defeating enemy heroes in battle +4.
assassinating the Warboss +2,
Assassinating the Warboss +2,
Total: 10

Sabotage:
Taking a watchpost without a fight and causing many deaths to Skaven +2.
Sabotaged the Doom Divers +2,
assassinating the Warboss +2,
tripping the troll trap +4,
Assassinating the Warboss +2,
sabotaging Idol of Gork +3.
Total: 15

Magic:
Taking a watchpost without a fight and causing many deaths to Skaven +2.
preventing disaster in the Chiselwards +4.
sabotaging Idol of Gork +3.
Countering the Shamans +4,
dispelling the Waaagh-field that empowered the Orcs +4.
Total: 17

Shenanigans:
Taking a watchpost without a fight and causing many deaths to Skaven +2.
Sabotaged the Doom Divers +2,
assassinating the Warboss +2,
Assassinating the Warboss +2,
sabotaging Idol of Gork +3.
dispelling the Waaagh-field that empowered the Orcs +4.
Total: 15

Anyone else got good ideas for grouping things together?
 
A big part of the cost of commisioning a runic item is the time it takes the rune smith to forge it. Getting a better weapon would mean replicating already spent effort where as upgrading a lab almost certainly wouldnt have that issue.

Needless to say im not going to vote to spend less than 15 points.
 
A big part of the cost of commisioning a runic item is the time it takes the rune smith to forge it. Getting a better weapon would mean replicating already spent effort where as upgrading a lab almost certainly wouldnt have that issue.

Needless to say im not going to vote to spend less than 15 points.
It's a different weapon that will do different things(rule of pride and all that) and may well be made by completely different runesmith, so I fail to see how its replicated effort.

E: This is not me challenging that fifteen is a really nice number by the way, I'd be quite chuffed with a 15 favor runesword.
 
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I don't have the 8th edition Dorf army list, but found this tactics article on Rune combinations. Then, if those costs are accurate, ballparking off some of TNEs theoryrunecrafting:
For a weapon, definitely get a dwarf one, because theirs are plain and simply the best. I know it's better to say something general instead of picking outright, but I'd dearly love Kragg's "hits at S10" rune, especially if we can pair it off with two Runes of Striking. Who needs fancy "automatically bypass armor and wound" runes, if you can just take a good ol' "hits like a fucking cannon" one?

Triple Rune of Cleaving is also good (Killing Blow, +1S, AP); Master Rune of Smiting (D6 wounds) and Cleaving x2 (+1S, AP) or Striking x2 (+1 WS, re-roll misses) or Fury and Cleaving (+1A, AP); Master Rune of Snorri (hit on 2+) and Cleaving x2 (+1S, AP) or Might x2 (Against T5+, double strenght, D3 wounds).
Most of those combos are apparently less that 100 points (which would roughly be 10 favours on an axe).
E.g. Triple Cleaving 65pts or Snorri + 2x Might (I think?) 75pts
The point being, kickass runic weapons seem to be available well within the Branul Lhune pricerange, even with a 'Manling sword grumble tax'.
 
We can literally take an action next turn to Scout 8 Peaks and probably get a good 2-4 Favor from that depending on the intel we bring back. Holding back and saying we need Favor for Instructors and for our Tower is ridiculous when we're probably going to focus on our research backlog first of all, and our Tower can be upgraded piece by piece.
Well, there's the fact that we've never received Dwarf Favour for scouting actions.

Now, if we scout a Karak and get into a running battle and end up killing another warboss or something absurd like that, yes, they'll give us Dwarf Favour for that.
 
Alright, let me try to chop this up different ways.

Direct martial accomplishments:
Taking a watchpost without a fight and causing many deaths to Skaven +2.
Defeating enemy heroes in battle +4.
assassinating the Warboss +2,
Assassinating the Warboss +2,
Total: 10

Sabotage:
Taking a watchpost without a fight and causing many deaths to Skaven +2.
Sabotaged the Doom Divers +2,
assassinating the Warboss +2,
tripping the troll trap +4,
Assassinating the Warboss +2,
sabotaging Idol of Gork +3.
Total: 15

Magic:
Taking a watchpost without a fight and causing many deaths to Skaven +2.
preventing disaster in the Chiselwards +4.
sabotaging Idol of Gork +3.
Countering the Shamans +4,
dispelling the Waaagh-field that empowered the Orcs +4.
Total: 17

Shenanigans:
Taking a watchpost without a fight and causing many deaths to Skaven +2.
Sabotaged the Doom Divers +2,
assassinating the Warboss +2,
Assassinating the Warboss +2,
sabotaging Idol of Gork +3.
dispelling the Waaagh-field that empowered the Orcs +4.
Total: 15

Anyone else got good ideas for grouping things together?
I think this entire idea is ridiculous.
>
[Previous Dwarf Rep: +1]
[Govibarazak: +2]
[Two sublime demonstrations of the power of artillery: +2]
[Grudges Avenged: +8]
[Adbarazi: Your Oath Fulfilled: +2]
[Total: +15]
>
What part of those favors came from Protecting? None of them. That didn't stop us all from sinking the Favor points into a Talisman of Protection. Trying to divvy up our Favor into 'we should only spend this much on this because of how we earned the favor in the first place' is going to cripple our favor spending.
 
Would be cool if Belegar sought us out to learn some intrigue. We do the opposite all the time and he's just accepted being sneaky. Tho he'd probably go to Ulthar for that :/
 
Because it wont be 5 + 5 = a weapon in our hands worth 10. It would be two weapons worth 5 each.
The worth of one weapon has no bearing on the other. They'll do different things and must thus be treated and used most effectively in different ways for one and for two they are likely to come after the span of years given how threats have been escalating.

Lets say for example we got a sword of 3x Rune of Cleaving for ten to fifteen points. Then some time waaaay down the line we have twenty dwarf favor for various fun things we got up to and realize we need a better sword. Then we spend that favor and Kragg decides to Kragg all over it with multi rune shenanigans and suddenly we have something that is clearly superior in a qualitative fashion in much the same way the Belt is for protective purposes.

This is my view on it. And it basically comes down to the point of if we're gaining favor and can expect to gain more, there's functionally no difference. Especially since past a certain point we'll have to stop with the lab because its physically impossible for the dwarves to upgrade it further.
 
Well, there's the fact that we've never received Dwarf Favour for scouting actions.

Now, if we scout a Karak and get into a running battle and end up killing another warboss or something absurd like that, yes, they'll give us Dwarf Favour for that.
Your right, my mistake, but in that case we can just hook up with the Karak Azul Throng and take An Enthusiastic Walk next turn for favor instead of scouting.
 
I like the general idea of favors-as-narrative, it's very thematic, but I'm definitely going for at least fifteen anyways (I'd prefer more, but nobody else desires the Maximum OverSword, and fifteen puts it at parity with our belt). Karag Lhune is twelve-ish, but we can just throw in some others on top of that; nothing says we have to spend according to one theme or another, it's just a nice twist of narrative.

Also, we can earn more favors. We cannot, however, upgrade a runic weapon. If we get it, it's for keeps, unless we want to spend way more than just going for all the options the first time would cost us, and we've already got ten more favor than the maximum amount we can spend on a weapon. We're surrounded on all sides by opportunities to earn more favor; there's six peaks of questing left, and even if we only get two each for generic helpfulness that's still twelve more favors, for a total of forty seven (35 already, plus 12), and that's in Karak-Eight-Peaks alone.
This is my view on it. And it basically comes down to the point of if we're gaining favor and can expect to gain more, there's functionally no difference.
Well, except we can skip right ahead to the part where we've got the goodest sword, and not spend another good sword's worth of favors on something we plan to part with in the future. It doesn't make economic sense.

It's the same as voting to get the maximum oversword, basically, except we don't even get a maximum oversword out of it.
 
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