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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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If the idea is just to keep the greenskins from getting up to the Citadel, the fire plan is simple enough and should work. The natural reaction to a fire is to move away from it, by starting it on the side closer to the Citadel they'll be less inclined to go near and the smoke and noise from the fire will make it harder to notice the dwarfs attacking.
 
Redshirt Army said:
That seems kind of dubious to me. London was basically a tinderbox irl, yet it went 34 years without a major fire during the leadup to the Great Fire of London. Unless the winds cooperate, fires are unlikely to consume a whole town without outside help.

It'd be entirely on-theme for orcs and goblins to have a quarter of the town burn down every few years and just rebuild.

Plus it sounds like a large number of the factors that made London so flammable should be in play here too.

That said, I'm willing to wait for QM confirmation one way or the other.
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I went through in detail up thread pretty much literally none of those factors of the Great Fire of London applied.

London also had organised methods to fight fires. The Greenskins do not.

Alliterate said:
My impression is that all we really need to do is to stop them easily and in numbers swarming into the Citadel (again) to reinforce the defenders.

What we don't know about, are any underground passages from Grobitown direct into the Citadel.
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Into the Citadel is only a small part of the issue. Being swamped by greenskins from behind when our troops are formed up around the Citadel trying to storm it would be just as bad if not worse. We need to block the entire avenue leading up from the caldera. Only Plan Burning Shadows does that. The fire plan doesn't block anything, so the greenskins are still free to move up to the plateau even if the fires start, while the commando plan just blocks the Citadel entrance, not the avenue.
 
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Vote Tally
Adhoc vote count started by Lupercal on Sep 25, 2019 at 2:46 PM, finished with 604 posts and 79 votes.
  • [x] Plan Light Everything On Fire And Kill Things
    -[x] Propose lighting as much of Grobi Town on fire as possible, using whatever combination of your personal sneaking, magic to help others sneak, ranger sneaking, halfling sneaking, top-class dwarven incendiary technology, artillery-hurled incendiaries, and other means the war council can cook up.
    -[x] Ensure in particular that the portions closest to the Citadel entrance are lit up so that reinforcing the Citadel becomes difficult to impossible without charging into the flames.
    -[x] Combine with assassinations for additional confusion and to ensure lack of an organized response.
    ... and 1 more.
    [X] Plan Burning Shadows
    -[X] Spend a night before the assault hunting down and assassinating any surviving shamans. Make sure to sleep the day before.
    -[X] Mathilde infiltrates into position to be down sun of the Citadel and arranges for the dwarves to attack at the local dawn, when the sun becomes visible above the eastern peaks. She then times the conclusion of a casting of Burning Shadows to complete moments after the sun is visible and the Citadel's shadow is cast. Ritual cast if Mathilde is confident she can do so reliably.
    -[X] Scatter Black Lotus poisoned caltrops on the path to delay greenskins and get them stuck in the Burning Shadow longer.
    -[X] Organise to have indirect fire of dwarven catapults firing whatever the engineers think will cause the most havoc arcing over the Citadel into Grobi down timed to a few moment after the Burning Shadows is cast.
    [X] Plan Go Commando
    -[X] Survey and MAP the entrance from Grobitown to the Citadel, use this to generate a better set of charges to collapse it.
    -[X] sneak back up to gate, plant charges, blow it up. Rangers are infiltrating to Caldera rim to overlook passage, lotus poison bolts to provide a backup plan.
    --[X] if the explosion works, well, actually we're good to go. Roll up artillery to dominate the passage as the battle is underway, to further dissuade approach to the Citadel. If it's been less successful, adapt, but focus our subsequent efforts on dissuading entry to the Citadel.
    [X] Plan Combination
    - [X] Sow chaos in the night
    -- [X] Propose lighting as much of Grobi Town on fire as possible, using whatever combination of your personal sneaking, magic to help others sneak, ranger sneaking, halfling sneaking, top-class dwarven incendiary technology, artillery-hurled incendiaries, and other means the war council can cook up.
    -- [X] Ensure in particular that the portions closest to the Citadel entrance are lit up so that reinforcing the Citadel becomes difficult to impossible without charging into the flames.
    -- [X] Combine with assassinations for additional confusion and to ensure lack of an organized response. Prioritize murdering shamans if possible.
    -[X] If Mathilde has enough steam to do it after night in town, Mathilde infiltrates into position to be down sun of the Citadel and arranges for the dwarves to attack at the local dawn, when the sun becomes visible above the eastern peaks. She then times the conclusion of a casting of Burning Shadows to complete moments after the sun is visible and the Citadel's shadow is cast. Ritual cast if Mathilde is confident she can do so reliably.
    -[X] Scatter Black Lotus poisoned caltrops on the path to delay greenskins and get them stuck in the Burning Shadow longer.
    -[X] Organise to have indirect fire of dwarven catapults firing whatever the engineers think will cause the most havoc arcing over the Citadel into Grobi down timed to a few moment after the Burning Shadows is cast.
    [x] plan: It wuz Dem!
    -[x] infiltrate and plant delayed incendiaries
    -[x] widely scatter caltrops with black lotus poison.
    -[x] set off some explosions away from the citadel
    -[x] impersonate a big orc to scream out lies about who is attacking and from where. Slip away, repeat elsewhere.
    -[x] Panoramia ritual casts father of thorns to quietly seal the gate.
    [X] Sleep on the pile like a dragon
    - [X] Gather the Journeymanlings and have them take turns proposing strategies and then critiquing
    [X] Try to agitate infighting among the greenskins while the main force gets into position to attack.
    [x] Plan Hat Trick
    -[x] Mathilde sets the explosives in a Caldera-to-Citadel pass and then proceeds to the grobi town
    -[x] Mathilde sets the grobi town on fire and prevents all greenskin attempts to coordinate
    -[x] Rangers and/or catapults - whoever does this better - fill the path from caldera to citadel with black lotus poisoned caltrops
    -[x] Codrin's archers should claim the wall and repel greenskins right after the first assault is successful
    [X] Plan Burning Shadows
    -[X] Sell Belegar on the value of a day's preparation and rest time for the human mercenaries to get over their lack of sleep and hangovers.
    -[X] Spend a night before the assault hunting down and assassinating any surviving shamans. Make sure to sleep the day before.
    -[X] Mathilde infiltrates into position to be down sun of the Citadel and arranges for the dwarves to attack at the local dawn, when the sun becomes visible above the eastern peaks. She then times the conclusion of a casting of Burning Shadows to complete moments after the sun is visible and the Citadel's shadow is cast. Ritual cast if Mathilde is confident she can do so reliably.
    -[X] Scatter Black Lotus poisoned caltrops on the path to delay greenskins and get them stuck in the Burning Shadow longer.
    -[X] Organise to have indirect fire of dwarven catapults firing whatever the engineers think will cause the most havoc arcing over the Citadel into Grobi down timed to a few moment after the Burning Shadows is cast.
    [X] Plan: Hold the Open gates and start a Blaze.
    -[X] Make a pair of gates, or bars, or some kind of portable barrier to place into the open Gates once you take them. Make some smaller ones, but that would be able to block dwarven halls in the citadel, if you need strong points.
    -[X] Charge the open gate(since no hinges survived) with Knights, with Mat on shadowsteed and Dread Aspect. With dwarves running in behind them. Take and hold the open gates from the other side as fast as possible. Speed is life here, you want to be blocking the other side before anyone gets close.
    -[X] Give some Caltrops to the Knights. Both to scatter outside the Gates on the Inner Side, or drop behind them in retreat if this is some kind of trap.
    -[X] If time and space allowed, take some torches along. Some Knights can ride down the avenue, just a bit, and throw some torches around to help the blaze start, as well as spread the caltrops. But only within easy withdrawl distance.
    -[X] Have archers police the walls and bring in Grudge Throwers right behind the charge. Even before the Citadel falls, the Grudge throwers can throw over the walls and set fire to the caldera shanty town with dwarven incendiaries. That should give pause to any greenskins and flush out any surprises hidden in the buildings. Not even they like walking through literal fire.
    -[X] As possible, bring up a couple of bolt throwers and use them to police the approaching avenue and take targets of opportunity while the incendiaries do their job.
    -[X] Dial in a couple of cannon on our side of the gates. If something nasty shows up, a pre-set signal should allow them to shoot anything trying to boil out of them from the underways.
    --[X] Assuming all goes well, if you hold the gates with Knights and the shantytown is burning, once they dwarves arrive and plug the gate, all that will be left is fighting for the citadel and the underground approaches. And the dwarves know tunnel fighting far better than you do. We can bring archers up as we spread through the Citadel, to hold the walls from without.
    --[X] Really, if we manage to hold the Gate and start a blaze, the biggest issue will be smoke and the underways. As well as any reinforcements that might come along the walls themselves. We can help with that by having some cannon on our side, that can sweep the top for enemy reinforcements, but the tunnel fighting is going to hurt if they are ready. Ask if the top of the walls is wide and sturdy enough for a wolf charge, if needed.
    [X] Plan Slayer
    -[X] Stage 1: Mathilde infiltrates the Citadel, Rangers scout, Dwarfs set up artillery. If successful.
    -[X] Stage 2: Fire the artillery, set Grobi town on fire, prevent reinforcements getting to the Citadel. If successful.
    -[X] Stage 3: Escort Citadel attack force with monstrous cavalry. If successful.
    -[X] Stage 4: Conquer the citadel
    [X] Plan Shadow and Fire
    -[X] Mathilde infiltrates to a position where she can cast Burning Shadows on the Citadel's shadow.
    --[X] If Burning Shadows is dispelled, move to block the path physically with the Torc of Fire, Dread Aspect, or Burning Shadows (if the Crown of Fire casts Mathilde's shadow forward
    -[X] Have Grudge Throwers launch incendiaries over the Citadel into Grobi Town.
    -[X] Expedition forces assault the Citadel after the first volley.
    [x] see if Mathilde can start the orcs fighting on the far side of the caldera
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While how well the Greenskin structures can burn is up for debate, and indeed might well be up to the will of the dice, we do know that they are at least capable of burning, as of the Hall of the Moon:

BoneyM said:
Everywhere you look, there is pandemonium. Some Night Goblins scream abuse at each other, and this is as close to order as it gets, as elsewhere weapons clash and fists fly and hands shove. Fire rages out of control in at least three places, burning merrily through the countless layers of Goblin hovels built atop each other.
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Whether or not being outdoors vs indoors effects things remains to be seen.

veekie said:
Diplomacy yet remains our weakest skill after all.
The only emotions we can induce on demand, reliably are confusion and terror.
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While I don't know about on demand, I'd say we certainly can reliably induce exasperation. :V
 
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ichypa said:
While how well they Greenskin structures can burn is up for debate, and indeed might well be up to the will of the dice, we do know that they are at least capable of burning, as of the Hall of the Moon:

Whether or not being outdoors vs indoors effects things remains to be seen.
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How well a structure inside a dry cave burns has little to do with how well a structures outside in a hole a ring of mountains drains into burns, although I'll concede that they aren't completely fireproof.
 
Alratan said:
The fact that their towns exist at all and last more than a day is strong circumstantial evidence that they're basically fireproof, as otherwise the general collateral damage of orc brawls would result in them burning down almost immediately.
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Very poor evidence. Humans have had painfully flamable citys for ever. Like half of (I think it was Chicago) that burnt down after a cow allegedly kicked over a lantern. Orcs also aren't flamethrower happy, they like physical attacks. MC managed to burn down their Doomgliders just fine... so evidence against being fireproof is available.

Also, some squiggs are explosively flammable.
 
Necratoid said:
Very poor evidence. Humans have had painfully flamable citys for ever. Like half of (I think it was Chicago) that burnt down after a cow allegedly kicked over a lantern. Orcs also aren't flamethrower happy, they like physical attacks. MC managed to burn down their Doomgliders just fine... so evidence against being fireproof is available.

Also, some squiggs are explosively flammable.
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Your second point rather undermines your first.

Humans also had fire brigades and paved streets as firebreaks. They also don't continually brawl at the top of a hat, and if they caused a fire to spread when brawling they'd probably stop to put it out when an orc would keep on fighting. Humans are also careful and knew that fire was dangerous and had to be contained using things like fireplaces, stoves and covered lanterns. Orcs don't have the technology for that.

The question is what's different from the handful of fires that Mathilde would start deliberately and the otherwise identical fires that orcs would accidentally start scores or hundreds of times a day in a large settlement like this? Why would Mathilde's fires make any difference against that backdrop? What extra is she adding?

A deliberate fire is no different from one a negligent orc starts in this context. Apart from the fact that there are a lot more negligent orcs that there are of Mathilde.

And, as I explained above, this isn't worth expanding the Rangers on this is not worth it, as lighting a literal beacon showing where you are is the opposite of sneaky, and the Rangers don't have Doppelganger and Take No Heed.
 
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[X] Plan Burning Shadows

I don't think the Burning Shadows plan asking for time is that big a deal. It's literally just Mathilde saying 'give me a day to time things and I can keep the Greenskins occupied'. Either the War council thinks that's worthwhile, or Cordin thinks the mercs won't wait. And they'll make a different plan. No one is going to begrudge Mathilde her proposed plan of action so long as it isn't rank stupidity or overstepping her authority with regards to other forces.

The update would be really awesome eiterh way even if they don't go with that plan. Just imagine Mathilde getting increasingly excited as she explains her plans as everyone is slightly horrified and intrigued culminating in either a pout or a grin depending on confirmation. We shouldn't be too hung up on making a plan no one could really dispute because at the end of the day they're just asking for Mathilde's opinion- not orders.
 
Necratoid said:
Plan involves burning down the town and you think the buildings being in disrepair is going to make them harder to put to the torch? Why go inside the buildings at all? These greenskin's typical building style is ramshackle and still standing because public opinion says it should...
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No I think extremely poorly constructed buildings are more likely to collapse every which way when set on fire. That overhang held up by two planks and the will of Gork and Mork? Collapses forward into the street. That building on the "street" corner that leans to the left a bit? Collapses all over the place. And since everything is rammed together and badly constructed buildings probably lean every which way one collapsed building can rapidly become a chain of them collapsing in unpredictable directions. Which clogs the streets with debris.

Simply "not going into buildings" does not prevent the building's from collapsing around (or even on) Mathilde and blocking her way.

Edit: Haven't actually voted yet. For now.
[X] Plan Burning Shadows
 
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Alratan said:
Your second point rather undermines your first.

Humans also had fire brigades and paved streets as firebreaks. They also don't continually brawl at the top of a hat, and if they caused a fire to spread when brawling they'd probably stop to put it out when an orc would keep on fighting. Humans are also careful and knew that fire was dangerous and had to be contained using things like fireplaces, stoves and covered lanterns. Orcs don't have the technology for that.

The question is what's different from the handful of fires that Mathilde would start deliberately and the otherwise identical fires that orcs would accidentally start scores or hundreds of times a day in a large settlement like this? Why would Mathilde's fires make any difference against that backdrop? What extra is she adding?

A deliberate fire is no different from one a negligent orc starts in this context.
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Well for one it wouldn't just me Mathilde starting the fires, the vote outright has a section about other parts of the army using their own methods to add more fire to the mix such as the Rangers and probably Halflings.

Secondly the main difference is that when a random fire gets started there is usually a bunch of other Greenskins nearby to try to put it out or there is only one fire at a time. Without our method we would be starting multiple fires in a town that has had large sections pretty much abandoned, meaning that the fires will have time to grow beyond a critical mass before the Greenskins even have a chance to try to stop them.

Thirdly a deliberately triggered fire is going to be engineered to go out of control as fast as possible, not to mention an accelerants we decide to use.

Humbaba said:
No I think extremely poorly constructed buildings are more likely to collapse every which way when set on fire. That overhang held up by two planks and the will of Gork and Mork? Collapses forward into the street. That building on the "street" corner that leans to the left a bit? Collapses all over the place. And since everything is rammed together and badly constructed buildings probably lean every which way one collapsed building can rapidly become a chain of them collapsing in unpredictable directions. Which clogs the streets with debris.

Simply "not going into buildings" does not prevent the building's from collapsing around (or even on) Mathilde and blocking her way.
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But at the same time the blocking of pathways is exactly what we want, if such collapses begin to happen then that will prevent the Greenskins from reinforcing the Citadel.
 
Humbaba said:
I don't get this concern. I really don't.

The mercenaries are in the middle of the mountains. Walking away isn't something they can just trivially do. On top of this, the campaign has gone really well, they've had a massive party, and they will be seeing a massive amount of greenskins being melted right in front of them.* This tends to be the sort of thing that doesn't encourage asking for your pay and buggering off (back across the plains, with their own dangers) over a single day's delay.

If there was a week's delay then I'd agree with you. A week is a long time to think. Or if we try to stretch our objectives again after this. But a day, half of which is probably going to be spent nursing a hangover, seems very unlikley to cause the kind of rebellion you are predicting.

*Side note burning shadows does work on structures, just more slowly than on organics.
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They don't have to literally run away to cause problems. They could do any of a hundred ways of demanding more pay, saying that the assault is clearly over, or simply following the caravan back. Their commander was also hesitant in confirming their loyalty unless they attacked all but immediately off the party high. Also if Belegar wants this to succeed long term, avoiding a reputation for being a paymaster who will screw you out of a paycheck unless you do overtime isn't the way to go.

I'm also operating under the assumption that characters in the quest are capable in their fields. So I'm trusting Belegar and Cordin who decided that an afternoon attack would balance recuperation and still being fired up over the decisions of questers who don't know exactly what the mercs were drinking and how humans recover from it.

This also doesn't take into account how much time we give the greenskins. I don't want to try for overnight sabatoge and discover that they took the time to bring in reinforcements and shore up their currently shoddy artillery setup.

Plus, I've been reminded that going a full night of high intensity ops and then straight into a spell to determine the fate of a battle is a bad idea.
 
Something else to consider, it's very possible, indeed, probably even the most likely scenario that, given the fact that there probably aren't any trees left in the Caldera or East Valley (we were just told last update that it's all been occupied and used by the orc ecosystem, and probably has been for millenia), that the greenskin buildings aren't made from wood at all, as we've been assuming, but that they're literally mud huts, made of wet adobe. If there's one things the orcs wouldn't be lacking, it's dung to mix the earth with. Any wood would long since have been rotted away by orcoid fungus, and with no source of replacements, that doesn't leave much.

That would really stymie plans to burn it down.

Sinsystems said:
Well for one it wouldn't just me Mathilde starting the fires, the vote outright has a section about other parts of the army using their own methods to add more fire to the mix such as the Rangers and probably Halflings.

Secondly the main difference is that when a random fire gets started there is usually a bunch of other Greenskins nearby to try to put it out or there is only one fire at a time. Without our method we would be starting multiple fires in a town that has had large sections pretty much abandoned, meaning that the fires will have time to grow beyond a critical mass before the Greenskins even have a chance to try to stop them.

Thirdly a deliberately triggered fire is going to be engineered to go out of control as fast as possible, not to mention an accelerants we decide to use.
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Mathilde is incapable of carrying meaningful volumes of accelerants. And I very strongly doubt that the greenskins are capable of organising a fire brigade

And I also addressed the very real problems with getting the Rangers involved in this. They're dwarves. They don't run very fast. Lighting a literal beacon to mark your location is begging for some orcs that fancy a brawl to come to look what's up and swamp them in bodies.

SurpriseMe said:
They don't have to literally run away to cause problems. They could do any of a hundred ways of demanding more pay, saying that the assault is clearly over, or simply following the caravan back. Their commander was also hesitant in confirming their loyalty unless they attacked all but immediately off the party high. Also if Belegar wants this to succeed long term, avoiding a reputation for being a paymaster who will screw you out of a paycheck unless you do overtime isn't the way to go.
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The success criteria of the expedition weren't defined when the mercenaries were hired, so we aren't breaking any promise or deal. We only decided where to attack after we arrived, so whether or not the Citadel was included in them can't have been defined to them earlier.

This campaign has also been astonishingly fast and low casualty. These mercenaries came expecting to besiege old dwarf holds. Compared to what they signed up for this has been a walk in the park. In other circumstances they could still be weeks away from taking their first peak, rather than having a speed run of victories.
 
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EVA-Saiyajin said:
What if the fire causes them to run towards the Citadel?
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unlikely considering the fires will be starting close to the citadel, and furthermore the goal is to prevent mass assaults from the grobi town, where as if some small portion of them literally run through the flames burning themselves, oh well the fire will still have done its job.
 
cheesyme said:
unlikely considering the fires will be starting close to the citadel, and furthermore the goal is to prevent mass assaults from the grobi town, where as if some small portion of them literally run through the flames burning themselves, oh well the fire will still have done its job.
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Can't set fire to solid ground, which is the pathway to the Citadel.

And that is sounding like the fire will spread a lot faster than some individuals can spread it, especially while trying to avoid a fight.
 
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EVA-Saiyajin said:
Can't set fire to solid ground, which is the pathway to the Citadel.
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its wide enough for 3 people to walk side by side, with a long row of buildings on both sides that'll be collapsing into said row. That pathway will no longer exist 20 minutes after the fires are set, if that. Furthermore, the entire area will be being lit on fire, including the areas which said pathway leads to and the district beyond in short order if done properly, which means anyone not allready right by the path, gets to run through the fire and the flames.
 
Can i bring attention to the fact that despite being promised Wolf no matter what happens, we got no Wolf. I feel cheated and wolfless.
 
I now have a vision of Mathilde trying and failing to set fire to a wall literally made of old but still damp orc shit if this vote goes through, now I've realised that there's no source of wood for Grobi Town to be built from timber, so it almost has to be adobe construction.

The Rangers would probably point out the flaws in the plan first though, unless they have a nasty sense of (toilet) humour.
 
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[X] Plan Burning Shadows

Ugh. Unfortunately, relying on a fire to spread and the individuals making it not get caught, nevermind the viability of the fires itself if these are even combustible buildings, is too big for me.
 
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