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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Mmm.
Folks, what, do you reckon, are our chances of doing the following:
1. Cause infighting
2. Plant explosives on far side of caldera
3. Make some illusions which look like dwarf forces
4. Create ton of rumours among greenskins that dwarfs are attacking from that way
5. Explode explosives to convince them there's something going on in that direction
6. Take Citadel while they are distracted over on the other side of caldera.

?
 
Honestly the biggest problem with the fire plan is it does absolutely nothing to stop the Green skins from interfering with a citadel assault and it will drive them out of the Grobi town with minimal casualties.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Honestly the biggest problem with the fire plan is it does absolutely nothing to stop the Green skins from interfering with a citadel assault and it will drive them out of the Grobi town with minimal casualties.
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setting the parts of grobi town near the citadel on fire means odds are any grobi who notice the fires are going to be running away not through the flames towards us.
 
I haven't checked the plans but have those of them depending on shadow tricks considered that burning towns are inimical to shadows, cast or not? I mean maybe the flicker arcane mark applies, maybe not, and maybe there is sufficient distance it doesn't matter, but something to consider if your plan of area denial depends on a cast shadow from the side that is going to have light at the back.
 
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ctulhuslp said:
Honestly, with orks being orks, I wouldn't be so sure.
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Fair point, but in that case they're getting burned before they even reach the battle lines, running towards an area where there'll probably be other soldiers and artillery ready to kill them. Besides, Mathilde is an advisor, not the ruler, her preps/plans probably won't be the only things going on.
 
cheesyme said:
You know, you have a point and might be right, but there's a simpler way to solve this problem than back and forth arguing. Cause if you're right Alratan, this is information we should have in character, not merely "its probably this or that." The leading plan being impossible due to details that we should know IC is something we should damn well know as voters.

@BoneyM
1) Could you please describe what the greenskin construction is actually like?
2) Could you please tell us if IC Mathilde thinks she could set it on fire
3) Could you please tell us if the Dawi have any incindiaries we could use, or if Mathilde at least thinks they do.
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I doubt he'll be on in time to be decisive here.

The big thing that I think is conclusive as what I put at the end of my last post. If Grobi Town was as flammable as people think, it wouldn't exist, as regular Greenskin fighting and carelessness would be continually starting fires. The place wouldn't last a day without burning to the ground.

Greenskins fight all the time, and are notorious for being heedless of collateral damage while doing so. They're also no where near organised to have fire brigades with prepared water caches and plans for what to do. Why would the number of fires Mathilde can start in broad daylight make a significant difference to the number of fires that the orcs will start today anyway?

Note how Kragg didn't even bother throwing a lightning bolt or opening a lava pit in Grobi town to set it on fire to stem the flow of greenskins up from there yesterday. He'd be well aware of the weaknesses of Greenskin construction and would find it poetic justice to take advantage of it to harm them.

But he didn't even spare a single bolt. What does he know that we don't.
 
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A tally - for now, burning things down seems to be well in the lead.
Adhoc vote count started by Sinsystems on Sep 25, 2019 at 1:21 PM, finished with 538 posts and 70 votes.
  • [x] Plan Light Everything On Fire And Kill Things
    -[x] Propose lighting as much of Grobi Town on fire as possible, using whatever combination of your personal sneaking, magic to help others sneak, ranger sneaking, halfling sneaking, top-class dwarven incendiary technology, artillery-hurled incendiaries, and other means the war council can cook up.
    -[x] Ensure in particular that the portions closest to the Citadel entrance are lit up so that reinforcing the Citadel becomes difficult to impossible without charging into the flames.
    -[x] Combine with assassinations for additional confusion and to ensure lack of an organized response.
    [X] Plan Burning Shadows
    -[X] Spend a night before the assault hunting down and assassinating any surviving shamans. Make sure to sleep the day before.
    -[X] Mathilde infiltrates into position to be down sun of the Citadel and arranges for the dwarves to attack at the local dawn, when the sun becomes visible above the eastern peaks. She then times the conclusion of a casting of Burning Shadows to complete moments after the sun is visible and the Citadel's shadow is cast. Ritual cast if Mathilde is confident she can do so reliably.
    -[X] Scatter Black Lotus poisoned caltrops on the path to delay greenskins and get them stuck in the Burning Shadow longer.
    -[X] Organise to have indirect fire of dwarven catapults firing whatever the engineers think will cause the most havoc arcing over the Citadel into Grobi down timed to a few moment after the Burning Shadows is cast.
    [X] Plan Combination
    - [X] Sow chaos in the night
    -- [X] Propose lighting as much of Grobi Town on fire as possible, using whatever combination of your personal sneaking, magic to help others sneak, ranger sneaking, halfling sneaking, top-class dwarven incendiary technology, artillery-hurled incendiaries, and other means the war council can cook up.
    -- [X] Ensure in particular that the portions closest to the Citadel entrance are lit up so that reinforcing the Citadel becomes difficult to impossible without charging into the flames.
    -- [X] Combine with assassinations for additional confusion and to ensure lack of an organized response. Prioritize murdering shamans if possible.
    -[X] If Mathilde has enough steam to do it after night in town, Mathilde infiltrates into position to be down sun of the Citadel and arranges for the dwarves to attack at the local dawn, when the sun becomes visible above the eastern peaks. She then times the conclusion of a casting of Burning Shadows to complete moments after the sun is visible and the Citadel's shadow is cast. Ritual cast if Mathilde is confident she can do so reliably.
    -[X] Scatter Black Lotus poisoned caltrops on the path to delay greenskins and get them stuck in the Burning Shadow longer.
    -[X] Organise to have indirect fire of dwarven catapults firing whatever the engineers think will cause the most havoc arcing over the Citadel into Grobi down timed to a few moment after the Burning Shadows is cast.
    [X] Plan Go Commando
    -[X] Survey and MAP the entrance from Grobitown to the Citadel, use this to generate a better set of charges to collapse it.
    -[X] sneak back up to gate, plant charges, blow it up. Rangers are infiltrating to Caldera rim to overlook passage, lotus poison bolts to provide a backup plan.
    --[X] if the explosion works, well, actually we're good to go. Roll up artillery to dominate the passage as the battle is underway, to further dissuade approach to the Citadel. If it's been less successful, adapt, but focus our subsequent efforts on dissuading entry to the Citadel.
    [x] plan: It wuz Dem!
    -[x] infiltrate and plant delayed incendiaries
    -[x] widely scatter caltrops with black lotus poison.
    -[x] set off some explosions away from the citadel
    -[x] impersonate a big orc to scream out lies about who is attacking and from where. Slip away, repeat elsewhere.
    -[x] Panoramia ritual casts father of thorns to quietly seal the gate.
    [X] Sleep on the pile like a dragon
    - [X] Gather the Journeymanlings and have them take turns proposing strategies and then critiquing
    [X] Try to agitate infighting among the greenskins while the main force gets into position to attack.
    [x] Plan Hat Trick
    -[x] Mathilde sets the explosives in a Caldera-to-Citadel pass and then proceeds to the grobi town
    -[x] Mathilde sets the grobi town on fire and prevents all greenskin attempts to coordinate
    -[x] Rangers and/or catapults - whoever does this better - fill the path from caldera to citadel with black lotus poisoned caltrops
    -[x] Codrin's archers should claim the wall and repel greenskins right after the first assault is successful
    [X] Plan Burning Shadows
    -[X] Sell Belegar on the value of a day's preparation and rest time for the human mercenaries to get over their lack of sleep and hangovers.
    -[X] Spend a night before the assault hunting down and assassinating any surviving shamans. Make sure to sleep the day before.
    -[X] Mathilde infiltrates into position to be down sun of the Citadel and arranges for the dwarves to attack at the local dawn, when the sun becomes visible above the eastern peaks. She then times the conclusion of a casting of Burning Shadows to complete moments after the sun is visible and the Citadel's shadow is cast. Ritual cast if Mathilde is confident she can do so reliably.
    -[X] Scatter Black Lotus poisoned caltrops on the path to delay greenskins and get them stuck in the Burning Shadow longer.
    -[X] Organise to have indirect fire of dwarven catapults firing whatever the engineers think will cause the most havoc arcing over the Citadel into Grobi down timed to a few moment after the Burning Shadows is cast.
    [X] Plan: Hold the Open gates and start a Blaze.
    -[X] Make a pair of gates, or bars, or some kind of portable barrier to place into the open Gates once you take them. Make some smaller ones, but that would be able to block dwarven halls in the citadel, if you need strong points.
    -[X] Charge the open gate(since no hinges survived) with Knights, with Mat on shadowsteed and Dread Aspect. With dwarves running in behind them. Take and hold the open gates from the other side as fast as possible. Speed is life here, you want to be blocking the other side before anyone gets close.
    -[X] Give some Caltrops to the Knights. Both to scatter outside the Gates on the Inner Side, or drop behind them in retreat if this is some kind of trap.
    -[X] If time and space allowed, take some torches along. Some Knights can ride down the avenue, just a bit, and throw some torches around to help the blaze start, as well as spread the caltrops. But only within easy withdrawl distance.
    -[X] Have archers police the walls and bring in Grudge Throwers right behind the charge. Even before the Citadel falls, the Grudge throwers can throw over the walls and set fire to the caldera shanty town with dwarven incendiaries. That should give pause to any greenskins and flush out any surprises hidden in the buildings. Not even they like walking through literal fire.
    -[X] As possible, bring up a couple of bolt throwers and use them to police the approaching avenue and take targets of opportunity while the incendiaries do their job.
    -[X] Dial in a couple of cannon on our side of the gates. If something nasty shows up, a pre-set signal should allow them to shoot anything trying to boil out of them from the underways.
    --[X] Assuming all goes well, if you hold the gates with Knights and the shantytown is burning, once they dwarves arrive and plug the gate, all that will be left is fighting for the citadel and the underground approaches. And the dwarves know tunnel fighting far better than you do. We can bring archers up as we spread through the Citadel, to hold the walls from without.
    --[X] Really, if we manage to hold the Gate and start a blaze, the biggest issue will be smoke and the underways. As well as any reinforcements that might come along the walls themselves. We can help with that by having some cannon on our side, that can sweep the top for enemy reinforcements, but the tunnel fighting is going to hurt if they are ready. Ask if the top of the walls is wide and sturdy enough for a wolf charge, if needed.
    [X] Plan Slayer
    -[X] Stage 1: Mathilde infiltrates the Citadel, Rangers scout, Dwarfs set up artillery. If successful.
    -[X] Stage 2: Fire the artillery, set Grobi town on fire, prevent reinforcements getting to the Citadel. If successful.
    -[X] Stage 3: Escort Citadel attack force with monstrous cavalry. If successful.
    -[X] Stage 4: Conquer the citadel
    [X] Plan Shadow and Fire
    -[X] Mathilde infiltrates to a position where she can cast Burning Shadows on the Citadel's shadow.
    --[X] If Burning Shadows is dispelled, move to block the path physically with the Torc of Fire, Dread Aspect, or Burning Shadows (if the Crown of Fire casts Mathilde's shadow forward
    -[X] Have Grudge Throwers launch incendiaries over the Citadel into Grobi Town.
    -[X] Expedition forces assault the Citadel after the first volley.
    [x] Plan be sneaky - at first
    - [x] Mathilde starts a fight between the greenskins on the far side of the caldera - try to make sure it sticks and that other groups are being lured in
    - [x] Rangers and hobbits start fires between the citadel and the hopefully fighting greenskins, and set up the artilery overlooking the entrance
    - [x] Attack the citadel with the mercenaries(faster runners so they'll arrive a little ahead) and dwarves with ranged support to suppress any greenskin archers.
    - [x] Dwarves push the attack further inwards while the cavalry disrupts attempts in the caldera to circumvent the flames
    - [x] Rangers and a reserve to either delay (if the greenskins in the caldera get their act together, muster, and go through the fires) or take over the attack with the resting mercenaries when the attacking force starts to flag.
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Alratan said:
I doubt he'll be on in time to be decisive here.

The big thing that I think is conclusive as what I put at the end of my last post. If Grobi Town was as flammable as people think, it wouldn't exist, as regular Greenskin fighting and carelessness would be continually starting fires. The place wouldn't last a day without burning to the ground.

Greenskins fight all the time, and are notorious for being heedless of collateral damage while doing so. They're also no where near organised to have fire brigades with prepared water caches and plans for what to do. Why would the number of fires Mathilde can start in broad daylight make a difference to this?

Note how Kragg didn't even bother throwing a lightning bolt or opening a lava pit in Grobi town to set it on fire to stem the flow of greenskins up from there yesterday. He'd be well aware of the weaknesses of Greenskin construction and would find it poetic justice to take advantage of it to harm them.

But he didn't even spare a single bolt.
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Yea I have to agree, green skin infighting is one of their biggest attributes if their camps and towns were truly that easily flammable they'd be constantly going up in smoke.
 
Also, a note for why I don't have Mathilde tell Belegar much about what to do with the broader battle. Previously, we've been told that Mathilde doesn't fit into their doctrine so she should do her own thing. I'm following the same principle here.

I'm generally just disappointed that people seem to have decided that Mathilde should have been a Bright Wizard, not a Shadow Wizard. A Bright battle wizard probably can throw enough fireballs large and hot enough to pull the plan off, but Mathilde is neither a Bright Magister nor a Battle Wizard.
 
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[X] Plan Burning Shadows
I'm voting for this because it's just so metal. Like damn. I'm not sure if it's tactically the best, but setting a whole town of Orks on (shadow-)fire using fortress mountain is just so great. Yes please.
 
Alratan said:
For people who plan to use fire, answer this. How does Mathilde start the fires?

I've read through the thread up to now and no one has properly addressed the question.
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We do have lamp oil, which should burn quite well. A bit of gunpowder should be fine for lighting the oil, which in turn can be lit by a fuse.
 
BoneyM said:
Gambling, theft, deceit... three out of four, you decide, will do. You can do some protecting tomorrow
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BoneyM said:
And blood is spilled on the holy symbol of Ranald and you smile
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BoneyM said:
And it just so happened that the sacrament they could offer is something they'd like to do anyway.
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Rereading the update, it seems our religious service was less of a proper service to Ranald, and more of a huge communal offering to curry favour with our patron deity. Not that you'd expect services honoring the gambling god to look very much like those of other gods in the first place, but the emphasis definitely seems to have been on 'acts that please Ranald', rather than 'offering spiritual guidance'. Interesting to consider is that Mathilde robbing the poor mercenaries blind might actually be in their favour, as Mathilde in her capacity as the presiding 'priest' made the biggest offering of them all; making sure the entire event was a scam. I can imagine little that would be more effective at pleasing Ranald and drawing his attention to his luck-needing flock at the same time.

What also jumped out for me is that a majority seems to have caught on immediately (at least with the gambling-for-Ranald part) and went along with it. A significant part of the gathered mercenaries/vagabonds must have had some experience with Ranaldism before, as can be expected.

BoneyM said:
you hold up a pair of crossed fingers and wink and most understand instantly, and there's a hushed murmur as they explain it to their slower-minded friends.
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ctulhuslp said:
Mmm.
Folks, what, do you reckon, are our chances of doing the following:
1. Cause infighting
2. Plant explosives on far side of caldera
3. Make some illusions which look like dwarf forces
4. Create ton of rumours among greenskins that dwarfs are attacking from that way
5. Explode explosives to convince them there's something going on in that direction
6. Take Citadel while they are distracted over on the other side of caldera.

?
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1: black lotus poison, especially if on caltrops widely scattered enough to go mostly in noticed, can practically guarantee this.
2: easy, would require long fuses and possibly eye of the beholder to cover.
3: not sure, but I think doing this big enough to matter would be out of our abilities. Sound alone? Probably.
4: pretty easy, if we have a passable orc-voice. Difficult otherwise.
5: oh yes
6: probable.

Pretty close to my It wuz Dem! plan, actually.
 
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