That would just mean we would have them looking over our shoulder half if not all the time and we really dont want the eastern Greek states to get any foothold in the west until we are atleast secure enough to be able to be able to hold on own against someone like Korinth, Athens or even Sparta if even just for a bit.

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Which is why conquering the Dauni is necessary, we need access to their salt and other resources maybe even their manpower if we can integrate them in a timely manner
If you truly wish to learn the powers of the Dark Side, you must become the student of a Sith master (Athens) and bide your time until you can stab them in the back and become the master yourself.
 
Peace with the Dauni is pretty much impossible at this stage, agreeing to peace with them would not only undermine Eretia in the eyes of the other tribes around us, probably incite the factions within our current vassals not happy with their Eretrian overlords to cause even more trouble but also war with them is inevitable. To fully control the heel of Italy we will need Dauni lands.

Welcome to SV.

I am curious why you think that peace with the Dauni would undermine Eretria's standing with its neighbours? And why would it incite unrest within our vassals?

fasquardon
 
[X] [Hyria] Grant Hyria autonomy and Artahias allyship [+5,500 freemen providing tributes and levies including heavier infantry, Artahias becomes a loyal Eretrian ally rather than vassal].
[X] [Dauni] The Path of Peace [Eretria and the Dauni will cease hostility, open trade to one another, and stop plotting against one another].
[X] [Athenai] Accept the Athenian treaty [Athenai will be grateful, Taras will be disturbed, Eretrian grain trade will grow faster in the future].

"I have spoken enough regarding the Dauni. My great-uncle recalled an earlier time, after Eustarchus the fool led us into the Dauni lands to our humiliation, when there were calls we must destroy the Dauni at any cost. We did not do so, and we have had little cause to regret it. The scheming the Dauni have been accused of was ineffective at best. And yet we spoke so often of yoking them that who may blame them for their hostility? And to say the Iapyges are untrustworthy does a grave injustice to the stalwart friendship that King Harpos showed our people in ruling over the Peuketti; once he realized the alternative to peace with our polis was death, he chose peace and prospered accordingly.

And in the event the Dauni do not prove willing to keep their word we may go to war with them with Justice on our side and with the blessings of the gods. This is how it has always been for our polis and I pray it will remain so. Since we in any case do not intend to go to war with them now, so that we might pursue our projects in the Adriatic, what harm is caused by dropping talk of war if or until they prove false? And if peace prevails long enough the Dauni will, whatever we might say of their trustworthiness, come to value our silver and the products of our artisans as their brothers the Peuketti have.

And to speak of the Adriatic, I favor the treaty with Athens for that cause. We have been allowed to control the Adriatic because Athens has kept Corinth at bay. They have done their for their own interests, to preserve the flow of grain from our lands. This treaty will increase that flow of grain greatly and thus render Athens even more well-disposed to our city. The extra silver will greatly improve our coinage and the trade will keep our budget from exceeding the income we have available. Corinth would not dare trivially challenge us even in the event the peace holds, should we count Athens as our friend. And with the income from the extra trade we can build up a navy that can be a true hegemon of the Adriatic, which is a surer safeguard of our neutrality and liberty than good intentions.

Much is made of the disappointment of Taras. Yet this pact of friendship is not a violation of the treaty we have signed. Let us also remember that Taras has not been completely at ease these years. They have made a common friendship with Rhegion, and ended their rivalry with Thurii. They are a growing market and trading partner of the Sikeliote League, who we have grown more distant from. The balance of power within Italia is shifting away from Eretria if we do nothing, and we have no guarantee the peace party will always prevail in the Tarantine elections. We should do somehting about this, but it would be useful for us to cement Athenian goodwill beforehand so we could have a stronger case for other Italiote powers to value our own friendship. If the Tarantines take exception to us exercising our right under our treaty then they are free to make a treaty of trade and friendship with Lakaidomon, that is if the Spartans have anything worth trading for.

Also in honesty I find myself much disturbed by the report of our xenoparakletor, wise Obander. The Athenians are fickle, and right now their lower classes adore our city. They might be turned against us in fury if we disappoint them. And then nobility of Athens, the aristoi who should be the leading men of the polis, account us of little importance. If as Obander conjectures the brute Erasmos Dion put Alkibiades up to proposing the treaty we may suspect Dion has some strategy in mind; it was he who conquered and subjugated Kerkyra with such force. We have maintained our neutrality in part because Athens has never forced us to take sides, but if we face the hostility of the city we will be challenged to the utmost for our very survival. Athens is a dangerous friend but far more dangerous as an enemy; so let us take their friendship, and their silver, and hope that we may not need face them.

And if we do face them we will still need more time to gather more wealth and more allies. So let us accept the treaty to buy that time, and buy more triremes."
 
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Welcome to SV.

I am curious why you think that peace with the Dauni would undermine Eretria's standing with its neighbours? And why would it incite unrest within our vassals?

fasquardon

As it stands right now, Eretria has or would have (and I may be wrong here) a reputation of being rather strong for such a small city state, after all we've won every major war and/or battle we've been in without suffering any decisive defeat even when we fought Taras in the last war it was mostly the Messapi who truly had a large amount of casualities in the war.

So it would stand to reasson that our neighbours would keep that in mind when making decisions on how to approach Eretria, it's the same for our vassals. They would see Eretria who has time and time again defeated them in the field as the type of overlord you don't want to mess with either be it out of fear or respect or something the like. Now you take that imagine away, that being by Eretria being cowed by the Dauni simply because the Dauni King made some rather fantastical threats which he honestly couldn't uphold even if he wanted to. No population of any city would accept being orderd to burn their own crops and homes down by some far away King of their's which honestly seems they don't even have much fealty to.

If they were unified? Sure, maybe, but from what we can gather from the information we have at the moment that's not the case. It's not even important that we completly conquer or even immediately go to war with the Dauni. We can focus on harsher raiding, perhaps pushing them back until we've control of the Salt and whatever else we need and THEN we could talk about perhaps making peace with them. But that would be from a position of strength, after having atleast fought them.

Accepting a peace deal without having even fought the Dauni, after being threatend by their King, after having the heads those Dauni nobles who favoured Eretria send to you in a chest...now that's just shameful. And for people like the Peuketii and other Barbarian tribes who seem to have a high regard for martial pursuits, that would certainly atleast show them that Eretria isn't as strong as they believe, same to our neighbours.
 
Let me put it this way. We won two years in ten years, one against a city that would be considered the most powerful in Italia by most measures. Ain't no one going to think Eretria is a bitch because we didn't plunge headlong into war with the Dauni that everyone knows would be a pain to finish.

And if those nobles favored Eretria so much they ought to have declared for us and requested protection rather than trying to play us and Arthaias against each other. If they went to a "reconciliation banquet" I guarantee it was because they thought they could keep their options open, not because they were so eager to make up with the local tyrant.
 
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I wouldn't be too sure about that. You seem to be basing the idea that the war with the Dauni would be a hard one on the Dauni Kings words that he'd make sure we would bleed for every bit of land we conquerd from them. The chances that the Dauni are even strong enough to be that much of a threat are very low.

Afterall we know that they aren't unified, that it only took a few bribes here and there for their Armies to ignore their Kings call to wage war on Eretria while we were busy with Taras and we know that we outnumber them heavily. Setting the Peuketii or maybe even the Messapi loose on the Dauni should be pretty much enough to give us quiet an advantage and should even have the benefit to settle some of the more unhappy factions within the Peuketii down for a while...maybe.
 
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[X] [Hyria] Allow Artahias to subjugate Hyria [+10,900 freemen providing tribute and levies, Hyrian revolt is crushed and Artahias becomes an Eretrian vassal just as the Peuketii].
[X] [Dauni] The Path of Pain [Eretria will continue to recieve options relating to war against the Dauni, there will be no easing of hostilities].
[X] [Athenai] Refuse the Treaty [Taras will be extremely grateful, Athenai will be unhappy, Eretrian grain trade may be superseded in favor of the Bosporos].
 
Let me put it this way. We won two years in ten years, one against a city that would be considered the most powerful in Italia by most measures. Ain't no one going to think Eretria is a bitch because we didn't plunge headlong into war with the Dauni that everyone knows would be a pain to finish.

And if those nobles favored Eretria so much they ought to have declared for us and requested protection rather than trying to play us and Arthaias against each other. If they went to a "reconciliation banquet" I guarantee it was because they thought they could keep their options open, not because they were so eager to make up with the local tyrant.
Arthaias is the leader of the Messapi firstly.

Then there's the blatant fact they were trying to request Eretria vassalage back when Mnemnon visited them, but the war with Taras took our focus and we never got back to them for over a decade.

A decade of radio silence from the polity you wanted to join, and then your overlord saying he's willing to negotiate. It makes sense they were willing to make peace.

After all, so many people, such as yourself, continually turned away from the Dauni and ignored the loyalty.

You remember when these lords you lambast as disloyal and untrustworthy (whilst blatantly ignoring or dismissing the fact the Peuketii you praise for loyalty have only just literally caused issues with land reform because they were keeping secrets from us to line their own pockets) stuck their necks out and openly ensured that the Dauni wouldn't invade us during the Salentine war?

How did we repay them again?

We ignored them, and now because you say 'The Dauni have nothing to gain from attacking us etc', which is blatantly untrue, we won't avenge them or their families who will follow after them.

Because apparently we're afraid of removing a long term cultural and political enemy who has shown a willingness to betray his word, attack us when posible and sits on salt preserves and other resources we want whilst also appealing to the Iapygian lower classes more than their own Hellenised elites
 
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I would argue that Sparta was the Sith :p

Yes, the Jedi/Athens where far from perfect, weren't popular and their fall lead to much rejoicing but when peoples saw what would replaced they become nostalgic rather quickly...
Plus the Old Republic was corrupt as all hell canonically by the time of the Clone Wars. So that fits Athens too.
 
[X] [Hyria] Grant Hyria autonomy and Artahias allyship [+5,500 freemen providing tributes and levies including heavier infantry, Artahias becomes a loyal Eretrian ally rather than vassal].

I've decided I don't want to promote the brutal aristocracy of cattle-ranchers the Hyrians are rebelling against.
 
Arthaias is the leader of the Messapi firstly.
Well, no. Arthaias is one of several powerful figures among the Messapii, and he's been trying to exploit Eretrian support to make himself king of all the Messapii.

Then there's the blatant fact they were trying to request Eretria vassalage back when Mnemnon visited them, but the war with Taras took our focus and we never got back to them for over a decade.
I mean, it's not like we had nothing else to worry about. Some Dauni nobles were willing to back us against an ethnic-Dauni king. We weren't particularly interested. Their interest in us does not impose upon us a reciprocal obligation to fight a war to turn them into a client state.
 
Well, no. Arthaias is one of several powerful figures among the Messapii, and he's been trying to exploit Eretrian support to make himself king of all the Messapii.

I mean, it's not like we had nothing else to worry about. Some Dauni nobles were willing to back us against an ethnic-Dauni king. We weren't particularly interested. Their interest in us does not impose upon us a reciprocal obligation to fight a war to turn them into a client state.

No but it does when they will at the end of the day always be an obstacle we will need to remove not to mention again that we do need access to their salt, land and whatever other resources we can find in their land. Alone from the location of both the Dauni and Eretria these two would sooner or later have to go to war not only due to their different culture, religion and goverment but also because war with the Dauni is inevitable. It will happen sooner or later and it better be now while we still have the chance to actualy win.
 
I wouldn't be too sure about that. You seem to be basing the idea that the war with the Dauni would be a hard one on the Dauni Kings words that he'd make sure we would bleed for every bit of land we conquerd from them. The chances that the Dauni are even strong enough to be that much of a threat are very low.

Afterall we know that they aren't unified, that it only took a few bribes here and there for their Armies to ignore their Kings call to wage war on Eretria while we were busy with Taras and we know that we outnumber them heavily. Setting the Peuketii or maybe even the Messapi loose on the Dauni should be pretty much enough to give us quiet an advantage and should even have the benefit to settle some of the more unhappy factions within the Peuketii down for a while...maybe.

The thing to remember is that no one doubts we could defeat the Dauni. That isn't in question. What is in question is if it's going to be economically wise to do so. Going to war is expensive since we have to pay our soldiers on campaign; it's comparable to the expenses we have each year investing in Great Works. Going to war with the Dauni may mean we have to give up installing sewers in Eretria and we know that stagnant waterborne diseases and filth are starting to become problems.

I suspect that no matter what, the war with the Dauni is going to take years of active campaigning. If the Dauni Confederation decides to hide in their little fortresses, there's not much we can do. We only have two options: direct assault and siege them into starvation.

The only siege technology we have is to build a ramp up and over their city walls. It would take months to construct each ramp just to sack one city. Each siege ramp we build is going to require that we supply the entire army and protect the supply route; it isn't so bad because most Dauni cities are near rivers and we can resupply by ship, but it's going to mean paying a lot of people who will constantly be harassed by Dauni skirmishers. After a couple of years and a few sackings, I expect that the Dauni King would be forced by his nobles and the population at large to commit to a decisive clash of arms. If we win that, then we can declare ourselves 'victor' in the war.

The other option is to commit as little of our army as possible. We'd use the Kleos Exoria and Heiros Ekdromoi as well as our cavalry and Iapyges skirmishers to suppress the Dauni countryside. They could commit to a scorched earth policy, so we will ensure that nothing grows in Dauni lands. After a few years, their food stores will run out and the Dauni king will be forced to a final confrontation. They would need to force us to evacuate their lands so that they can finally take in a harvest. If we win that decisive clash, then we win the war. The issue is, here we're trying to fight a war of skirmish against a tribe known for skirmishing in their own lands. We're likely to take significant losses.

Regardless of what we do, defeating the Dauni at war should be considered a major investment. It's going to require dedicated focus from the entire poleis for a four year term. I don't really think it's worth it if we put it in those terms.
 
I'm not a big fan of letting people squash justified rebellions. Is this entirely optimal? Probably not, honestly, but I find it the most appealing choice.

[X] [Hyria] Grant Hyria autonomy and Artahias allyship [+5,500 freemen providing tributes and levies including heavier infantry, Artahias becomes a loyal Eretrian ally rather than vassal].

I mulled it over, and I decided I really don't care to fight the Dauni over this. If keep their end of the deal up– no raiding, providing a buffer between us and possibly unfriendly neighbors, no other shenanigans– I think that's a victory for both of us. What we would want from a vassalized Dauni state to our north is basically what we would get from this peace. Minus some money of course, but also without the governance headaches.

Ausculos is the only part of this equation that concerns me. I'm not sure how much we can trust him, and I don't want him to take our diplomatic flexibility for weakness on our part. Still, I'm willing to give this a shot, although I think we should definitely keep an eye on the Dauni. Assuming they don't immediately renege, a xenoparakletor visit is probably in order.

[X] [Dauni] The Path of Peace [Eretria and the Dauni will cease hostility, open trade to one another, and stop plotting against one another].

Athens is more difficult. There are a lot of concerns at play here, the most pressing of which is Taras. We just signed a peace with them, and now is not a great time to be making waves. Yet at the same time, the proposed treaty with Athens is in many ways simply a recognition of the status quo. We are friends with Athens. Distant friends, wary friends, friends sometimes at odds. But still friendly towards one another.

Perhaps more importantly, we absolutely want their trade.

[X] [Athenai] Accept the Athenian treaty [Athenai will be grateful, Taras will be disturbed, Eretrian grain trade will grow faster in the future].
 
Regardless of what we do, defeating the Dauni at war should be considered a major investment. It's going to require dedicated focus from the entire poleis for a four year term. I don't really think it's worth it if we put it in those terms.

True and I agree that it could, depending on the strategy we use end up being a costly war but we knew it would be one from the start. The problem here with accepting the peace deal and once again delaying the Dauni problem for another couple of years is that we will always have better things to do or Great works to construct so when it comes to the spending that will probaly still be a problem in the future if we do not find other avenues to make more money then we are spending. This is were the Saltpans come in, it would be a significant boost to our economy, furthermore delaying the Dauni problem again would only give them time to grow in strength, I would rather deal with them now when we know we can win then having the inevitable war come to us when the Dauni have the advantages.

Not to mention that by securing the Salt and dealing with the Dauni once and for all we would be pretty much securing not only a increase in wealth for Eretria, we do not need to completely wipe out the Dauni or even conquer every single city of theirs. Auscula, Herdonia, Salapia and depending wherever we would want to share borders with the Frentani or not Arpi and Drionis. Those last two cities being only a bonus and not a necessity. Conquering the 3 cities we do need would be enough to then consider proposing a deal with the Dauni that survive, obviously their King would need to die but those that remain could either be allowed to keep their independence while paying reperations to Eretria or become a tributary.

So yes, a war with them 'could' be costly but it would ultimately be worth it.
 
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