Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

[Deadly Snark]

People arguing that refusing this treaty would get Athens to invade us are being overly dramatic.

First of all, regardless of Athens being Athens, it is still something of a democracy, and as we have seen from Obander's journey its common population see us in extremely good light. Calling our grain life saving and such. Now the elites dont give too much of a shit about us its true, but it would be extremely hard for them to convince their Ekklesia to go on a war with one of their main suppliers of grain simply for refusing a treaty of friendship.

Second of all, this is from Alkiabides, and while certainly he was the driver behind the sicilian expedition in OTL, that does not mean that with it gone he will simply push for an Epulian Expedition. He might very well still do it in the future of course and I am sure that if we refuse he will keep that fact as a tool in his political arsenal. But judging by what little we have seen of Athenian politics on the surface level, I wager that for now Alkiabides intent to use our answer as an excuse to break the Truce.

If we agree to the Treaty, emboldened by our grain, he and Eramus will push for attacking Sparta. Since Athens will be backe by the Life saving grains of its long friend Eretria, it has nothing to fear from an Spartan Blockade/Siege anymore. If we turn it down, he'd likely push for continuation of hosility with Sparta based on how clearly we were afraid because Athens didnt show enough Arete and that in order to prove to the neutral cities that Athens will win they simply need to sack every Spartan ally into the ground or something like that.

In any case with our proxenoi and our historical relationship, there will be opportunities to repair the relationship with Athens.

And yes those arguing that choose neutrality is a Choice are right. No one is denying that. People are very aware that by not choosing either Sparta or Athens, we are choosing a third way, and while I have been skeptical of the talks of Eretria uniting Italia in the past. Eretria is one of the polis better positioned to weather the aftershocks of the war, who could potentially gather to it strong allies opposed to the meddling of Athens.

 

[kilopi505]

You'll have to explain your reasoning here. I thought Hyria revolted in part in explicit anti-Eretrian sentiment?

fasquardon

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Yes. But notice how it was expressed! They rallied under the banner of the priestess of an explicitly Greek god. They repelled Artahias' cavalry with what sounds to be a phalanx. There even seems to be the beginning of a concept of Hyrian citizenship there.

Take away all references to Hyria and Artahias and you can mistake the story as that of a Greek city rising up against oppressors.

You know that other members of our league will never accept that? Especially if we expand our league to Italy and bigger fishes there.

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That's in the future. But that future is more assured the more Greek-like the Messapii and Peuketii are.

 

[Deadly Snark]

Take away all references to Hyria and Artahias and you can mistake the story as that of a Greek city rising up against oppressors.

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Greek Cities oppressed each other all the time. So I dont see why this makes Hyria so exceptional.

 

[Satar]

We don't need to fight a total war with the Dauni, just grab the salty areas we want and raid the rest periodically. That synergizes well with pleasing Taras, and I'm not willing to be drawn into the wider Sparta-Athens clash for any amount of coin, thank you.

[X] [Hyria] Allow Artahias to subjugate Hyria [+10,900 freemen providing tribute and levies, Hyrian revolt is crushed and Artahias becomes an Eretrian vassal just as the Peuketii].
[X] [Dauni] The Path of Pain [Eretria will continue to recieve options relating to war against the Dauni, there will be no easing of hostilities].
[X] [Athenai] Refuse the Treaty [Taras will be extremely grateful, Athenai will be unhappy, Eretrian grain trade may be superseded in favor of the Bosporos].

 

[kilopi505]

Greek Cities oppressed each other all the time. So I dont see why this makes Hyria so exceptional.

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The peasants are at their most angry. The peasants are expected to start acting like barbaroi, raiding undisciplined from Hyria and easily get killed by cavalry.
They instead talked like Hellenes, acted like Hellenes from the very start. As if they are hoplitai, and citizens of Hyria

Why destroy people who are more Hellene than Messapii at this point when instead we can cultivate them into being full time Hellenes with the passage of time?

 

[Orisha91]

While accepting Athens treaty would come with many immediate benefits, we've gone through great lengths to secure the goodwill of Taras. Furthermore, we made a point to confirm that while Kerkyra may have forced our hand, we have been consistent in trying to show that we have distanced ourselves from too much entanglement in Hellas.

Should Taras further see our magnanimous nature and the riches we lose by spurning Athens, it would definitely allow us to have warmer relations with Taras through a peace faction that is once again vindicated. Now, I would rather have this as an investment under our belt into which tighter cooperation of Italiotes and trade might develop from down the line.

Short term, I wouldn't discount the benefits of a Taras that's considering a drift back to the relationship it had with us prior to perceived betrayal decades ago.

These are my reasons for declining Athenian friendship.

 

[Star]

Yes. But notice how it was expressed! They rallied under the banner of the priestess of an explicitly Greek god. They repelled Artahias' cavalry with what sounds to be a phalanx. There even seems to be the beginning of a concept of Hyrian citizenship there.

Take away all references to Hyria and Artahias and you can mistake the story as that of a Greek city rising up against oppressors.

Click to shrink...

Problem isn't with culture, just like Snark said Greek cities oppress each other all the time. Problem is with anty Eretrian sentiment. Common people are strongly anty Eretrian, nobles are explicitly said to not be willing to serve Eretria.

 

[Deadly Snark]

The peasants are at their most angry. The peasants are expected to start acting like barbaroi, raiding undisciplined from Hyria and easily get killed by cavalry.
They instead talked like Hellenes, acted like Hellenes from the very start. As if they are hoplitai, and citizens of Hyria

Why destroy people who are more Hellene than Messapii at this point when instead we can cultivate them into being full time Hellenes with the passage of time?

Click to shrink...

Because they revolted against us. If a Greek Polis revolts against us they shall be shacked. Hyria is a Barbaroi City which has rebelled, thus they must be punished. That they act like Hellenes is of no consequence.

 

[kilopi505]

Problem isn't with culture, just like Snark said Greek cities oppress each other all the time. Problem is with anty Eretrian sentiment. Common people are strongly anty Eretrian, nobles are explicitly said to not be willing to serve Eretria.

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Giving them autonomy ought tobtamp anti-Eretrian sentiment down.

Because they revolted against us. If a Greek Polis revolts against us they shall be shacked. Hyria is a Barbaroi City which has rebelled, thus they must be punished. That they act like Hellenes is of no consequence.

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Isn't it said in the update they are still willing to be under direct Eretrian vassalage, as long as Artahias is not their overlord?

So, I think in spirit they're not rebelling against us. Only vs. Artahias.

 

[Deadly Snark]

Isn't it said in the update they are still willing to be under direct Eretrian vassalage, as long as Artahias is not their overlord?

So, I think in spirit they're not rebelling against us. Only vs. Artahias.

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They were lost in the madness of Dionysus and rebelled against us, only to wake up from their revelry once they saw the might of Artahias and Eretria arrayed against them. They fully intended to revolt and only come to beg us for mercy now because they remembered that to do so is death.

Eretria must no enter the business of rewarding such acts. They rebelled and now they must pay the price.

 

[fasquardon]

Yes. But notice how it was expressed! They rallied under the banner of the priestess of an explicitly Greek god. They repelled Artahias' cavalry with what sounds to be a phalanx. There even seems to be the beginning of a concept of Hyrian citizenship there.

Take away all references to Hyria and Artahias and you can mistake the story as that of a Greek city rising up against oppressors.

Click to shrink...

I am very aware that the story of Hyria could become the story of Epidauros or Ankon.

Also, Dionysus is a dangerous god. We would be wise to see to some suitable monument in his honour in Eretria and to have Artahias and his nobles pay hommage along side our own notables...

So says Kleon son of Aristophanes

 

[Star]

Giving them autonomy ought tobtamp anti-Eretrian sentiment down.



Isn't it said in the update they are still willing to be under direct Eretrian vassalage, as long as Artahias is not their overlord?

So, I think in spirit they're not rebelling against us. Only vs. Artahias.

Click to shrink...

Letting Arthias solve this will eliminate that sentiment as well, then having Eretria give bigger attention to its Vassals and regulate cattle trade will solve the true problem of rebellion that was created out of desperation and hijacked by ambitious prophets and lesser nobles.

It's never good to empower those kind of people, especially since if we let Artahias go we will let only capable person willing to work with us wash his hands out of this and it will be us that will have to deal with these opportunists.

Edit : if those lesser nobles didn't go in this with intentions of raising rebellion against us then why didn't they simply came before the walls of Eretria and pleaded their case, it is far better option than going in open rebellion?

Instead they joined in with anty Eretrian sentiment only to be willing to work with us in face of destruction.

If that old hag truly serves Dionysus why did she encourage this uprising instead of bringing his words to us? We are servants of Dionysus as much as Messapi are.

No all pretenders and fake prophets i say!!!

 

[Erandil]

...
If we agree to the Treaty, emboldened by our grain, he and Eramus will push for attacking Sparta. Since Athens will be backe by the Life saving grains of its long friend Eretria, it has nothing to fear from an Spartan Blockade/Siege anymore. If we turn it down, he'd likely push for continuation of hosility with Sparta based on how clearly we were afraid because Athens didnt show enough Arete and that in order to prove to the neutral cities that Athens will win they simply need to sack every Spartan ally into the ground or something like that.
...

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If we don't provide their grain they will simply focus on the Bosporus and get their grain from there so I really don't get the argument of how our grain shipments would embolden the hawks in Athens. Hell, from a strategic perspective grain shipments from us/Italy are in far more danger of Korinthian and Spartan raiding and interception than those from the Bosporus so you could argue that they should actually lessen the risk of a fullblown war.

 

[NuclearConsensus]

To inform all parties off the situation, here, have a tally.

Spoiler

Vote Tally : Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest) Original - Alt. History | Page 285 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 7110-7279]
##### NetTally 2.2.0

Task: Dauni

[30][Dauni] The Path of Peace [Eretria and the Dauni will cease hostility, open trade to one another, and stop plotting against one another].
[22][Dauni] The Path of Pain [Eretria will continue to recieve options relating to war against the Dauni, there will be no easing of hostilities].

---

——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: Athenai

[37][Athenai] Refuse the Treaty [Taras will be extremely grateful, Athenai will be unhappy, Eretrian grain trade may be superseded in favor of the Bosporos].
[15][Athenai] Accept the Athenian treaty [Athenai will be grateful, Taras will be disturbed, Eretrian grain trade will grow faster in the future].

---

——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: Hyria

[38][Hyria] Allow Artahias to subjugate Hyria [+10,900 freemen providing tribute and levies, Hyrian revolt is crushed and Artahias becomes an Eretrian vassal just as the Peuketii].
[14][Hyria] Grant Hyria autonomy and Artahias allyship [+5,500 freemen providing tributes and levies including heavier infantry, Artahias becomes a loyal Eretrian ally rather than vassal].
[1][Hyria] Grant Artahias Brention as a bribe to allow Hyria autonomy under Eretria [+12,100 freemen including heavier nfantry, Hyria and Artahias become full vassals, the Kretans are outraged and may cause trouble].


Total No. of Voters: 55

 

[Helher]

[X] [Hyria] Grant Artahias Brention as a bribe to allow Hyria autonomy under Eretria [+12,100 freemen including heavier nfantry, Hyria and Artahias become full vassals, the Kretans are outraged and may cause trouble].
[X] [Dauni] The Path of Peace [Eretria and the Dauni will cease hostility, open trade to one another, and stop plotting against one another].
[X] [Athenai] Accept the Athenian treaty [Athenai will be grateful, Taras will be disturbed, Eretrian grain trade will grow faster in the future].

 

[Chopak]

[X] [Hyria] Grant Hyria autonomy and Artahias allyship [+5,500 freemen providing tributes and levies including heavier infantry, Artahias becomes a loyal Eretrian ally rather than vassal].
[X] [Dauni] The Path of Pain [Eretria will continue to recieve options relating to war against the Dauni, there will be no easing of hostilities].
[X] [Athenai] Refuse the Treaty [Taras will be extremely grateful, Athenai will be unhappy, Eretrian grain trade may be superseded in favor of the Bosporos].

Let's support hellenisation of barabaroi, refuse the treaty to keep border with Taras safe and then pwn those Dauni.

 

[Simon_Jester]

People arguing that refusing this treaty would get Athens to invade us are being overly dramatic.

First of all, regardless of Athens being Athens, it is still something of a democracy, and as we have seen from Obander's journey its common population see us in extremely good light. Calling our grain life saving and such. Now the elites dont give too much of a shit about us its true, but it would be extremely hard for them to convince their Ekklesia to go on a war with one of their main suppliers of grain simply for refusing a treaty of friendship.

Second of all, this is from Alkiabides, and while certainly he was the driver behind the sicilian expedition in OTL, that does not mean that with it gone he will simply push for an Epulian Expedition. He might very well still do it in the future of course and I am sure that if we refuse he will keep that fact as a tool in his political arsenal. But judging by what little we have seen of Athenian politics on the surface level, I wager that for now Alkiabides intent to use our answer as an excuse to break the Truce.

If we agree to the Treaty, emboldened by our grain, he and Eramus will push for attacking Sparta. Since Athens will be backe by the Life saving grains of its long friend Eretria, it has nothing to fear from an Spartan Blockade/Siege anymore. If we turn it down, he'd likely push for continuation of hosility with Sparta based on how clearly we were afraid because Athens didnt show enough Arete and that in order to prove to the neutral cities that Athens will win they simply need to sack every Spartan ally into the ground or something like that.

In any case with our proxenoi and our historical relationship, there will be opportunities to repair the relationship with Athens.

Click to shrink...

One complicating factor is that Athenian foreign policy is set by their ekklesia and is notoriously fickle*. The city has already grown accustomed to coercing other city-states into doing their will, and creatively interpreting treaties and oaths of alliance and friendship to mean that other city-states should be considered part of the Athenian Empire.
_______________________

*(e.g. ordering the entire population of a city put to death one day, then the next day regretting it and wanting to rescind the order, which was accomplished only by putting the most swole men of Athens on a single messenger trireme so that the stay-of-execution order could reach the Athenian fleet before it finished breaking into and sacking the city).

 

[phil03]

I believe in trying to boost our allies and minimize our enemies. The way I see it, attacking the Dauni in net effect adds to the enemy pile; it adds internal problems with serfs who hate us, adds significant frontiers with Samnites who have been hostile in the past and have a way of fighting that traditional Greek hoplites of even well-regarded cities have been shown to not engage effectively as well as the Frentani, distracts us from other problems for years, all for some serfs and trade goods. Whereas if we make peace with the Dauni, that mollifies them in at least the short term and gives us some smaller share of trade goods for no blood shed, and we can use the breathing space to maybe deal with other problems before they get to the point of Eretria being directly threatened and the opportunity presenting itself for all enemies to pile on.

I've seen worse lopsided votes that have come out victorious in the end, and the recent trend is for a lot of people to be voting in favor of Athens now that its benefits have been pointed out.


I'm still feeling bullish that we'll go for Athens in the end of this vote.

In the course of this CYOA, Athens has relentlessly mugged the other side for their lunch money in naval affairs and come out better in that respect than was historically the case, and it seems that the Sicilian Expedition is unlikely to happen from how successfully their diplomatic attempts went to kick Syrakousai down and given the ahistorically large amount of support to Athens is coming from the area.

Click to shrink...

Again, this is assuming the Dauni are being sincere here, something even some who are in favour of taking the deal are stated to have some scepticism on, as stated by the turn post. Yes, they have logical reasons to want this peace but the leaders of Herdonia could similarly tell themselves that it made sense for Ausculos to reconcile with them and we saw how it ended for them...

As for the Samnites, I do feel debating further on them is gonna be fruithless at this point but I still got to on, when exactly have they been hostile to Eretria in the past? I don't remember us ever crossing swords with them, or having much direct interactions ever.

As for the treaty with Athens I certainly hope you are right but the gap has not only stopped closing but actually gotten wider recently so I feel we will to deal with the consequences...

On a broader note, I don't get where the idea the treaty would get us into the Delian League I have recently seen come up come from. This isn't a treaty of alliance, let alone adhesion to the Delian League. Its merely a treaty of friendship and commerce with Athens, something that one independent polis can conclude with another. Yes it would annoy Taras but between annoying them and annoying Athens the choice should be pretty clear...

 

[Alias]

[X] [Hyria] Allow Artahias to subjugate Hyria [+10,900 freemen providing tribute and levies, Hyrian revolt is crushed and Artahias becomes an Eretrian vassal just as the Peuketii].
[X] [Athenai] Refuse the Treaty [Taras will be extremely grateful, Athenai will be unhappy, Eretrian grain trade may be superseded in favor of the Bosporos].
[X] [Dauni] The Path of Peace [Eretria and the Dauni will cease hostility, open trade to one another, and stop plotting against one another].

 

[Nyvis]

[X] [Hyria] Grant Hyria autonomy and Artahias allyship [+5,500 freemen providing tributes and levies including heavier infantry, Artahias becomes a loyal Eretrian ally rather than vassal].
[X] [Dauni] The Path of Peace [Eretria and the Dauni will cease hostility, open trade to one another, and stop plotting against one another].
[X] [Athenai] Accept the Athenian treaty [Athenai will be grateful, Taras will be disturbed, Eretrian grain trade will grow faster in the future].

I think having them be divided in three pieces is good for us, even if one of them won't pay taxes. I really don't want to throw Hyria under the bus because it will be messy and create bad blood while painting Artahias as our executioner even more. Also, the model of fucking over your own peasants to trade us more cattle doesn't seem like a good long term investment and the Hyrians are mostly rebelling against that.

Concerning the other offers, I think we have everything to win from peace with larger threats since there's still room to expand through both peaceful methods and fights with weaker enemies.

 

[Traveller76]

[X] [Hyria] Grant Hyria autonomy and Artahias allyship [+5,500 freemen providing tributes and levies including heavier infantry, Artahias becomes a loyal Eretrian ally rather than vassal].
[X] [Dauni] The Path of Peace [Eretria and the Dauni will cease hostility, open trade to one another, and stop plotting against one another].
[X] [Athenai] Refuse the Treaty [Taras will be extremely grateful, Athenai will be unhappy, Eretrian grain trade may be superseded in favor of the Bosporos].

 

[Deadly Snark]

One complicating factor is that Athenian foreign policy is set by their ekklesia and is notoriously fickle*. The city has already grown accustomed to coercing other city-states into doing their will, and creatively interpreting treaties and oaths of alliance and friendship to mean that other city-states should be considered part of the Athenian Empire.
_______________________

*(e.g. ordering the entire population of a city put to death one day, then the next day regretting it and wanting to rescind the order, which was accomplished only by putting the most swole men of Athens on a single messenger trireme so that the stay-of-execution order could reach the Athenian fleet before it finished breaking into and sacking the city).

Click to shrink...

This is true and were we in a weaker position I would vote to accept. But our position is good enough that I think we could survive a similar event decently.

 

[Shard]

Adding a bit more to my vote.

[X] [Hyria] Grant Hyria autonomy and Artahias allyship [+5,500 freemen providing tributes and levies including heavier infantry, Artahias becomes a loyal Eretrian ally rather than vassal].

[X] [Dauni] The Path of Pain [Eretria will continue to recieve options relating to war against the Dauni, there will be no easing of hostilities].

The Dauni can assert that they will destroy themselves as much as they like in a way to spite us in their deaths. How many nations/city-states actually go through will national suicide? Few, if ever. Besides which we only want a few bits from the Dauni; The Dauni can burn their own fields for us and destroy their own nation for us. We need not siege their cities to ruin them. How convenient they would do it themselves for us.

[X] [Athenai] Refuse the Treaty [Taras will be extremely grateful, Athenai will be unhappy, Eretrian grain trade may be superseded in favor of the Bosporos].

 

[Daviush]

[X] [Hyria] Allow Artahias to subjugate Hyria [+10,900 freemen providing tribute and levies, Hyrian revolt is crushed and Artahias becomes an Eretrian vassal just as the Peuketii].
[X] [Dauni] The Path of Pain [Eretria will continue to recieve options relating to war against the Dauni, there will be no easing of hostilities].
[X] [Athenai] Refuse the Treaty [Taras will be extremely grateful, Athenai will be unhappy, Eretrian grain trade may be superseded in favor of the Bosporos].

 

[Redium]

Yes, I don't think we need to conquer them all right now, just suppress them.

I would point out however, that if we want war with the Dauni, then we really should not be allowing the Messapii to war among themselves. We need the forces of Hypia and Artahais to make war on the Dauni, not each other.

Click to shrink...

Something else to consider: if we allow Hyria to be our direct vassal and grant Artahais allyship, it's going to create a model for how we can divide up the Dauni.

I think that combining Path of Pain and vassalizing Hyria/Allying Artahais creates an interesting synergy. The Dauni King is crafty, but unpopular. For all that he's slaughtered the outspoken nobles of Salpai and Herdonia, he still hasn't resolved their core issues; they can't trade to regain their wealth and the Dauni King has, in the past, utterly destroyed what they had to deny it to Eretria. If we offer support to another group who's rebelling for more rights, they may think they'll get the same deal. Given there's likely to still be surviving kinsmen of the slaughtered nobles in Salpai and Herdonia, if they're going to take revenge, now is a pretty good time for them to break away.

Scorched earth warfare is going to be very unpopular within the Dauni confederation. For all that it will make our attacks a pain in the ass, it means that the Dauni will be deliberately starving themselves. Our army might be 4,000 people, but the Dauni population is over 18,000 (they're the largest of the Iapyges). The wonderful thing about the Dauni is that all but one of their cities (Vibini) is next to a river, either the Carapelle or the Candelaro and both are navigable. Today, both the Carapelle and Candelaro have been turned into irrigation rivers for the fields of northern Forgia, but that's a an entirely modern development; the rivers were noted to be much deeper in ancient times and it's only recently that water levels have fallen. Greek ships are noted for their small drafts (<1 meter) and being able to beach easily. We could supply our entire force by river while they attack nearly every settlement. Considering river transport is dirt cheap (2-4% the cost of transporting by land), by ancient standards, it may very well be easier for us to supply an army in Dauni territory than it would be in the Peuketti's land right next door.

The Dauni are much more dependent on the grain grown from their lands than we are; they try to make us starve and they will be starving themselves while we ship in grain grown in Epulia. Sure, they can burn their fields and deny it to us, but that means that come winter... They might have grain tucked away in their fortress, but like we saw with Kymai, being trapped in a siege inside your fortress just means a slow death of starvation. The Dauni also don't have any ports to import grain from elsewhere.

I think a very solid strategy for Path of Pain would be allow the Dauni to go scorched earth and then only put in enough effort to prevent them from planting their fields. Within a few years, they will starve while our army stays supplied relatively easily. I think the King of the Dauni doesn't quite understand what pursuing a strategy of scorched earth would mean. It's an innovative tactic and one that would stymie most armies, but it can be worked around since we have such easy access to supplies and Iapyges auxiliaries. It is very much the tactic of cutting off a limb and trying to save your life. Even if we content ourselves to only taking the lowlands of the Dauni, we'll effectively gut them and allow much easier, future conquests. I think we'll probably need 2-3 bites to really fully vassalize the Dauni.

From the sound of it, it wouldn't really be a war. The goat's power-base would collapse in fear of Eretrian reprisal, and Eretrian guarantees of restraint would erode a lot of his more ambivalent followers. Hypia is by no means a homogeneous block if people there are already concerned Zisos is going to put them up against the wall and purge anyone insufficiently enthusiastic.

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Based on the numbers given in the votes themselves, I think Artahias is going to massacre a couple thousand people in Hyria. This doesn't seem to be a light purge that he's planning. He's going to have to sack Hyria and defeat its army in the field in order to restore order under his overlordship.

I suspect that if Artahias backs off and isn't standing there any more with his army, the people of Hyria will become less radical. The immediate threat of destruction tends to bring out the crazier and more radical elements of society while more moderate means rule in peaceful times.

Also Hyria is literally the place where nobles preserved their culture somewhat and didn't Hellenise, how will they help further hellenisation of Messapi?

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If we take them under our wing alongside Brention, I think there will naturally be pressure to Hellenize. Brention and Egnatia have already Hellenize significantly and are under our direct vassalage. There's a natural pressure for Hyria to Hellenize as well since they are dependent on our good will or an alliance with Brention for their survival against the rest of the Messapii. They need to know how we think and speak in order to manage as a vassal and it's one of their chief tools in managing their situation with regard to Artahias. We can always decide, later on, to give Hyria back to Arahias if they displease us; that's a risk they need to minimize.

One Hyria begins to Hellenize, I believe it will put a lot of pressure on the rest of the Messapii to follow suit. Hyria is the only cultural center the Messapii have. However the culture develops there, it's going to flow out and greatly affect how culture develops elsewhere among the Messapii. Being a cultural center means that other people envy and want to be like you. Anything that is done there will be emulated elsewhere.