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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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Cetashwayo said:
Should Eretria accept an Athenian treaty declaring the two poleis eternal friends and trading partners?

[] [Athenai] Accept the Athenian treaty [Athenai will be grateful, Taras will be disturbed, Eretrian grain trade will grow faster in the future].
[] [Athenai] Refuse the Treaty [Taras will be extremely grateful, Athenai will be unhappy, Eretrian grain trade may be superseded in favor of the Bosporos].


When voting, please copy out vote text in its entirety in order to preserve the coherency of the vote. That includes the word with the vote brackets. No plan votes.

This will be the last set of votes for this turn. Next turn we are returning to a model of a post-per-turn.
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"With regard to the declaration of friendship desired by Athenai, I call upon the esteemed proxenos of Taras, as to inquire whether Taras would consider such a declaration a breach of our treaty, or whether the Tarentines would be unbothered by it."
- Karenos the Hoplite

Karenos the Hoplite makes the following motion:
Let the proxenos of Taras officially and formally declare Taras' position. Would a declaration of friendship between Eretria and Athenai be a breach of the treaty in Tarentine eyes, or would noble Taras be unbothered by it? (If the proxenos lacks the authority to determine such, send runners to Taras and find someone who can)

=> If he says yes, it's a breach of the treaty, we send the Athenai our deepest regrets that we're unable to agree to their proposal, as the polis of Eretria has given it's word, and must keep it. The Athenai may nevertheless rest assured that Eretria keeps them in high esteem.

=> If he says no, it's not a breach of the treaty, then we agree to the Athenai declaration of friendship, and send our warmest thanks for their understanding to the Tarentines, and maybe a modest gift as a gesture of gratitude.

With either option, any sour feelings in either Athenai or Taras shall be defused, or at least lessened. If the declaration of friendship is refused, then it was not refused because Eretria doesn't want to be Athenai's friend but merely because it was bound by treaty not to declare so right now. If the declaration is made, then the Tarentines know that Eretria only declared so with Taras' approval, respecting not only the letter but also the spirit of the peace treaty.
 
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Driven by Apathy said:
"With regard to the declaration of friendship desired by Athenai, I call upon the esteemed proxenos of Taras, as to inquire whether Taras would consider such a declaration a breach of our treaty, or whether the Tarentines would be unbothered by it."
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The proxenos states that while it would not be considered a breach of the treaty, it would be seen in extremely bad faith by those of the Tarentine war faction who could seize upon it as pretext to end the detente between the two cities. It is also simply generally threatening to Taras.

Driven by Apathy said:
=> If he says yes, it's a breach of the treaty, we send the Athenai our deepest regrets that we're unable to agree to their proposal, as the polis of Eretria has given it's word, and must keep it. The Athenai may nevertheless rest assured that Eretria keeps them in high esteem.
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This is certainly what will be done in either case; the proxenos in Athenai will be under pressure to ensure some level of comity is maintained, but it will almost certainly be utilized by Alkibiades in some way.
 
HastyGaming said:
Perhaps when we're forced into the situation. But if we accept peace here I don't see a situation where we would have the opportunity to vote proactively to break this peace.

It's not anywhere near that bad. The situation with the Peuketii isn't at the stage where it will require violence to settle and the Messapii situation can be handled by Artahias alone, he doesn't need our troops for that. As for the colonies, they only take time not anywhere near the effort a war requires and they don't all have to be done in a single electoral cycle.

In fact even if we choose the path of pain it doesn't commit us to going to war with the Dauni now, it just means we can. But even if we did, we could still easily handle the situation in Ancon as well as it's just a diplomatic situation.

If we properly subjugate the Dauni we have a vassal buffer between us and a dangerous tribe whereas if we accept peace they can get rich off our trade and betray us at any time.
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We have delayed the war with them for gods know how many turns, because there was always bigger fish.
Starting a war with unrest in Messapii and Peuketii king being a lying liar who lies, or at least does not allow us to know what the fuck is really going on, is a bad idea. If we win, we are alright-ish off, even though we still have action economy issue; if we lose, or even not win immediately, all bets are starting to be off.
 
ctulhuslp said:
We have delayed the war with them for gods know how many turns, because there was always bigger fish.
Starting a war with unrest in Messapii and Peuketii king being a lying liar who lies, or at least does not allow us to know what the fuck is really going on, is a bad idea. If we win, we are alright-ish off, even though we still have action economy issue; if we lose, or even not win immediately, all bets are starting to be off.
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We foolishly delayed a war with them because people choose to focus on other things, those other things were not objectively bigger things, they were just choices.

And again, this doesn't start a war, it just maintains the current status quo and leaves the possibility open. Although I can understand why some people might make the mistake, the wording of the option doesn't really make it sound like the 'status quo' it is.
 
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Okay, so everything's on fire. The Messapii are setting each other on fire, the Peuketii King is being crafty, the Dauni want to set us on fire if we don't accept peace, the Antipatrids are on fire might fall apart, and the Athenai wants to control all of Hellas, basically. Everything's just gonna be okay....
 
Cetashwayo said:
The proxenos states that while it would not be considered a breach of the treaty, it would be seen in extremely bad faith by those of the Tarentine war faction who could seize upon it as pretext to end the detente between the two cities. It is also simply generally threatening to Taras.

This is certainly what will be done in either case; the proxenos in Athenai will be under pressure to ensure some level of comity is maintained, but it will almost certainly be utilized by Alkibiades in some way.
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Let's still send a runner to Taras. Eretria shall formally and officially ask Taras if it is their wish that Eretria decline to make this declaration or whether we have their blessing. Let it be discussed in their eklesia as much as in ours.

Thus we will receive an equally formal and official response, making it much clearer to the Athenai that it was not Eretria's doing if the declaration is refused. And who knows... maybe the Tarentines will give their approval? Not likely, perhaps, but not impossible either, and it would certainly be the optimal outcome.

(Basically, Athenai sent us a friend request. Why not send an invite on that friend request to Taras?)
 
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Driven by Apathy said:
Let's still send a runner to Taras. Eretria shall formally and officially ask Taras if it is their wish that Eretria decline to make this declaration or whether we have their blessing. Let it be discussed in their eklesia as much as in ours.

Thus we will receive an equally formal and official response, making it much clearer to the Athenai that it was not Eretria's doing if the declaration is refused.

And who knows... maybe the Tarentines will agree? That would arguably be the optimal outcome.
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Eretria should not be consulting other assemblies on the decision of its own assembly. It belies a lack of confidence in its decision and would reflect badly on the city's pride and independence.
 
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HastyGaming said:
We foolishly delayed a war with them because people choose to focus on other things, those other things were not objectively bigger things, they were just choices.

And again, this doesn't start a war, it just maintains the current status quo and leaves the possibility open.
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> foolishly
lol nah
Each of those things was rather vital at the time; if anything, conquering Dauni while we are yet to digest our old conquests is a nice-to-have, but not a necessity, and would be actually strange thing to do - opening another front while we are not wholly secure on:
- land (I don't trust either Messapii or Peuketii),
- sea (we have created a colony next to Illyrians, and Ankon next to natives there - we have to protect both now),
- economics (with recent trireme build-up cash-flow is in negatives; it is solved by more colonies, which, in turn, require defensive commitments)
- politics (fuck Alkibiades and idk what will Korinthos do; and we still are trying to prevent unification of Sicily)
 
[X] [Hyria] Allow Artahias to subjugate Hyria [+10,900 freemen providing tribute and levies, Hyrian revolt is crushed and Artahias becomes an Eretrian vassal just as the Peuketii].
[X] [Dauni] The Path of Peace [Eretria and the Dauni will cease hostility, open trade to one another, and stop plotting against one another].
[X] [Athenai] Refuse the Treaty [Taras will be extremely grateful, Athenai will be unhappy, Eretrian grain trade may be superseded in favor of the Bosporos].
 
The Dauni have been hostile because we have spent several years contemplating breaking them into servitude like their southern kinsmen. They have not been unreasoningly hostile but have tried to secure their interests and survival as best they can. Now they have come to recognize that they must either have peace or make conquest so costly that Eretria will not pursue it even as they admit they would be destroyed in the process. Rejecting a desirable outcome (peace, trade, a buffer against Samnites) out of spite or in a fit of pique the Dauni are not grovelling would be ill-advised.
 
[X] [Hyria] Allow Artahias to subjugate Hyria [+10,900 freemen providing tribute and levies, Hyrian revolt is crushed and Artahias becomes an Eretrian vassal just as the Peuketii].
[X] [Dauni] The Path of Peace [Eretria and the Dauni will cease hostility, open trade to one another, and stop plotting against one another].
[X] [Athenai] Refuse the Treaty [Taras will be extremely grateful, Athenai will be unhappy, Eretrian grain trade may be superseded in favor of the Bosporos].

We have started walking the path towards Adriatic Hegemony. It would be unwise to abandon it before we have had time to truly cement our control of the region (strengthen current colonies + get Venice + establish treaties with Enetoi and Etruscans).
 
I think best way is to make peace . Secure our borders with a buffer and alias/vassal and focus on developing our land , trade a clonies . In the future we may need to fight an oversees war witch is not possiblie with enemies on our borded. Aslo fuck Athens. It would be pointless to try to stretch our muscles in Hellas . We need to first economicly dominate Magna Grecia and Adriatic ( as much as possible)
 
ctulhuslp said:
Each of those things was rather vital at the time; if anything, conquering Dauni while we are yet to digest our old conquests is a nice-to-have, but not a necessity, and would be actually strange thing to do - opening another front while we are not wholly secure on:
- land (I don't trust either Messapii or Peuketii),
- sea (we have created a colony next to Illyrians, and Ankon next to natives there - we have to protect both now),
- economics (with recent trireme build-up cash-flow is in negatives; it is solved by more colonies, which, in turn, require defensive commitments)
- politics (fuck Alkibiades and idk what will Korinthos do; and we still are trying to prevent unification of Sicily)
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The Peuketii have been loyal for generations now and while they're going through some unrest it's nothing their King can't settle.
The situation with the Messapii is troubling, but likewise something he can alone handle - you've even voted to allow him to do so - and he doesn't need our troops for that.
The economic situation is still stable and cash flow is actually still positive with the drop off of the grain to Kymai and the tribute now coming in (or about to) from the Messapii.
Korinthos is probably about to be dragged into another war on the mainland. The situation in Sicily has just calmed with the war against the Sicels about to wind down, we don't need to focus on Sicily every turn.

And again the vote doesn't start a war. It just maintains the status quo.
MrMayhe said:
I think best way is to make peace . Secure our borders with a buffer and alias/vassal and focus on developing our land , trade a clonies . In the future we may need to fight an oversees war witch is not possiblie with enemies on our borded.
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By keeping open the opportunity to at some point go to war with the Dauni in the future we can fully secure our borders with vassals on all sides thereby allowing us to act freely in foreign affairs.

Our borders are never secure with the Dauni there.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Eretria should not be consulting other assemblies on the decision of its own assembly. It belies a lack of confidence in its decision and would reflect badly on the city's pride and independence.
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We're not asking the Tarentines whether or not they think it's a good idea to make this declaration of friendship.

We're telling them that we'd like to make the declaration, but we value our restored relationship with their city too much to do so without their approval. And thus, we ask not for guidance, but for their blessing.

That's not a sign of weakness. It's a sign of our esteem for Taras and of our reliability as a treaty signatory. It shows that we can be relied upon to keep both the letter and the spirit of the treaty.
 
[X] [Hyria] Allow Artahias to subjugate Hyria [+10,900 freemen providing tribute and levies, Hyrian revolt is crushed and Artahias becomes an Eretrian vassal just as the Peuketii].
[X] [Dauni] The Path of Peace [Eretria and the Dauni will cease hostility, open trade to one another, and stop plotting against one another].
[X] [Athenai] Refuse the Treaty [Taras will be extremely grateful, Athenai will be unhappy, Eretrian grain trade may be superseded in favor of the Bosporos].
 
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My first time posting here on this site but I just wanted yo point something out since I've been following this quest for a while now.

Peace with the Dauni is pretty much impossible at this stage, agreeing to peace with them would not only undermine Eretia in the eyes of the other tribes around us, probably incite the factions within our current vassals not happy with their Eretrian overlords to cause even more trouble but also war with them is inevitable. To fully control the heel of Italy we will need Dauni lands.

As for the Samnites. We could probably come to some understanding with the Lucani and/or Frentani about keeping them at bay.


As for th Athens vote. I dont think I have to tell anyone how absolutely horrible an idea it is to even consider it. We might lose some trade there but it's worth it for keeping peace with Taras and the keeping whatever happens in Greece away from Italy.
 
HastyGaming said:
The Peuketii have been loyal for generations now and while they're going through some unrest it's nothing their King can't settle.
The situation with the Messapii is troubling, but likewise something he can alone handle - you've even voted to allow him to do so - and he doesn't need our troops for that.
The economic situation is still stable and cash flow is actually still positive with the drop off of the grain to Kymai and the tribute now coming in (or about to) from the Messapii.
Korinthos is probably about to be dragged into another war on the mainland. The situation in Sicily has just calmed with the war against the Sicels about to wind down, we don't need to focus on Sicily every turn.

And again the vote doesn't start a war. It just maintains the status quo.

By keeping open the opportunity to at some point go to war with the Dauni in the future we can fully secure our borders with vassals on all sides thereby allowing us to act freely in foreign affairs.

Our borders are never secure with the Dauni there.
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We will just open another border with people we dont know . We can make them dependent on us to the point that traiding with us will be bette for them than to attack us . Make thir proaperity dependent on Eretia, they aslo have enemies who they need to watch out for . But their enemies are not our friend either . Better to keep the ones we know then to trade them for unknown
 
Well if i might say, i believe that combination of subjugating Hyria, accepting peace and refusing Athens is the best one.


Any other options with Messapi just asks for further troubles either with Kretans or leaving the opening in Messapi for either Taras, or Athenians to exploit.

Accepting peace with Dauni secures us what we desired through peaceful way and more importantly peace at our northern border so that we can pursue other avenues, Dauni themselves won't commit suicide and it's in our interest to see them grow dependent and fat on trade with Eretria which is known as benevolent master and is better neighbour than someone else...

Refusing Athens, well not because of Taras (though it plays important role) but because if we accept we will be drawn even further in Athenian orbit and knowing Alkibiades he will ask for more while closing of more and more avenues for us, we need to draw a line here.
 
RagnvarOdinson said:
My first time posting here on this site
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Welcome to SV :)

Driven by Apathy said:
We're not asking the Tarentines whether or not they think it's a good idea to make this declaration of friendship.

We're telling them that we'd like to make the declaration, but we value our restored relationship with their city too much to do so without their approval. And thus, we ask not for guidance, but for their blessing.

That's not a sign of weakness. It's a sign of our esteem for Taras and of our reliability as a treaty signatory. It shows that we can be relied upon to keep both the letter and the spirit of the treaty.
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Well my point is that you shouldn't really be doing that. You already have the consultation from their proxenos. They've told you as much and expect Eretria to make the right decision. You know what their answer would be. It would look peculiar to go any further and may be incorrectly seen as disingenuous or suspicious.

Husbands ask for blessings from fathers, not independent cities from each other. It's a good idea misapplied for this context.
 
[X] [Hyria] Allow Artahias to subjugate Hyria [+10,900 freemen providing tribute and levies, Hyrian revolt is crushed and Artahias becomes an Eretrian vassal just as the Peuketii].
[X] [Dauni] The Path of Peace [Eretria and the Dauni will cease hostility, open trade to one another, and stop plotting against one another].
[X] [Athenai] Accept the Athenian treaty [Athenai will be grateful, Taras will be disturbed, Eretrian grain trade will grow faster in the future

I worry that supressing Hyria, and I'm in favour of this choice, will ensure that future commoner rebellions among our Iaypgian subjects are automatically gonna be directed against Eretria. We should expect such uprisings to take place, soon after the Dauni cross the Aufidos. While I am cautiously optimistic, that we would be able to win such a war (especially if we appease Taras this turn), it would surely cost us much time & effort and coin. Meanwhile, our issues in the Adriatic would grow and we might be distracted from important events abroad.
I have previously argued for peace with the Dauni; due to their function as a buffer and since we haven't even gain a good grasp on our existing barbaroi subjects; and I continue to favour the the Path of Peace.

Edit: Hyrian Hoplites too tempting.
Edit2: Let's go all out on the Adriatic focus.
 
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Cetashwayo said:
Well my point is that you shouldn't really be doing that. You already have the consultation from their proxenos. They've told you as much and expect Eretria to make the right decision. You know what their answer would be. It would look peculiar to go any further and may be incorrectly seen as disingenuous or suspicious.
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Ah, damnit.

I had hoped having better diplomatic channels than in times past through our proxenoi might allow us to turn this to our advantage and find a solution outside the box, so to speak. Alkibiades doesn't play by the rules, so why should we?

Apparently not. Disappointing, but I guess there's no helping it.

Under the circumstances and lacking a good third option I'm inclined to refuse the treaty.

(Though I have one more question: Purely hypothetically, how difficult would it be to actually get Taras' approval to friendship with Athenai? Is it completely out of the question, or could the Tarentines be swayed?)
 
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Also, not sure if I'm thinking too far ahead here but to keep someone in control of the Dauni if or when we actually conquer them we could put a family member of the killed Eretrian-friendly people in charge perhaps?
 
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