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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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LonelyWolf999 said:
Y'know what? No. No, I'm calling their bluff. Metapontion probably would march on us to ensure the status-quo, but it would be trivial to undermine any sort of greater Italian coalition. We've won this war, and having the result be us getting threatened into a white peace and Taras getting even more land as well as consolidating their position in the peninsula is unacceptable. Crack open the sacred treasury and triple the troops' pay in order to ensure morale and prepare for a Metapontion intervention, and starve Taras out.
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LINOS: Citizen, please be advised that there still remains a sizeable force of Tarentines in the city that would surely be able to escape were we to embark on a war with Metapontion, given that they will only engage us with their allies, and we would thus be forced to abandon the siege in order to fight them, perhaps as many as 3,000 additional Hoplites and 200 cavalrymen. We must take them into account.
 
Cetashwayo said:
LINOS: Citizen, please be advised that there still remains a sizeable force of Tarentines in the city that would surely be able to escape were we to embark on a war with Metapontion, given that they will only engage us with their allies, and we would thus be forced to abandon the siege in order to fight them, perhaps as many as 3,000 additional Hoplites and 200 cavalrymen. We must take them into account.
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What use is money when the men you pay it to would be dead. We can defeat Metapontion, and we have shown that we are Taras better, but Taras and Metapontion? Metapontion would force us to relieve the siege were they to march, and Taras would then march upon our rear when we wheeled about to face them. We would be absolutely crushed. Remember Kerkyra, it was a bitter pill to swallow then, and its bitterness remains today, but swallow it we must, lest we delay the proper honor of the Gods further, and risk their open ire.
 
[X] Accept the peace.

"We have humbled mighty Taras, but the Gods desire that the peace is bitter. We must honor the gods for their generosity, for they have judged prideful and scornful of fraternity among the western Italiotes. We too must be humbled, if not by spear, then by treaty."
 
HastyGaming said:
We also need to consider the biggest downside in accepting this peace. That being, that while Taras has been humiliated it hasn't been weakened in any real way. They lost about 1000 men and suffered some damage to their city, neither of those are crippling losses.

All this peace would do is delay the conflict by 20 years. Maybe when that time comes we're considerably stronger and we can just walk over Taras. But maybe they've taken the 20 years where we can't attack them and become a force we can't even consider fighting, maybe Sparta won't be tied up with Athens at the time and can take a more active role in aiding the colony founded by their people so long ago...

So that's worth considering as well.
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Sure their losses might no be that high but with the Messapi under our control we will severly limit their avenues for natural expansion. And if we get lucky and manage to continue our ascendancy there might be a time in the future where Taras has little choice, or even will, than to join our league simply due to economic and diplomatic pressure.
 
[x] Refuse the peace and continue the siege.
The Tarentines need to face true consequences of their hubris they should at the very least agree to erect a shrine to the divine marriage in their city!
 
Professor Vesca said:
Metapontion would force us to relieve the siege were they to march, and Taras would then march upon our rear when we wheeled about to face them. We would be absolutely crushed.
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That assumes we do nothing in response to this changing situation.

Whereas what we could do is have Thurii march north to tie up Metapontion, buy off Rhegion to present a threat to the rear of Lokri and Krotone and sow discord between them. All the while having the Sikeliote League continue to pressure Syrakousai and perhaps provide some threat to Lokri and Krotone (if they can even stomach working together).

This peace wouldn't be awful, but it sure as hell isn't good either. And while continuing the war has risks, it isn't as terrible as it appears on first glance.

Still not sure what option is better.
 
[X] Accept the Peace.

To have fought in a just cause, and triumphed, and made a just peace afterwards; this is is the test of true men.

I will not see more beardless youths cut down in front of me like wheat, merely for petty dreams of Eretrian domination. We did not go to war to dominate Taras. We went to war to save the Mesapii, and to humble Taras in their hubris and their heedless rage, to bring them to their senses. We have done those things.

Every day we remain at war, we tempt the wrothful hand of Zeus, the fickle adoration of Tyche, and the black shears of Atropos herself. War is a pestilence, and should never be prolonged unless the very honour or safety of our city demands it. Our honour is intact. Eretria will be safer now, for our brave efforts in the field, than she was before.

Let us go home, sow our fields, and remember those heroic fallen who we have left behind us.

So speaks Arktos, son of Arktos Arkadios.
 
[X] Accept the peace.

We made our bed when we chose to placate the Dauni and ignore Metapontion. Let's quit while we're ahead instead of succumbing to a foolish bout of hubris.
 
If we accept the peace (which for the record I think we should) we'll be wanting to pick the Demos Exoria next turn. We will need to spend a few turns digesting our gains before the Messapii can be turned into a loyal subject and the Exoria will be perfect for that task what with their Barbaroi focus. Plus if we're lucky they can wrangle some minor military reforms out of this little war.
 
Erandil said:
Sure their losses might no be that high but with the Messapi under our control we will severly limit their avenues for natural expansion. And if we get lucky and manage to continue our ascendancy there might be a time in the future where Taras has little choice, or even will, than to join our league simply due to economic and diplomatic pressure.
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Concluding a peace here will grant Taras new lands that link it with its dependencies, conveniently side-stepping the issue of its appalling navy. This land is taken from the Messapii, who will be weakened and note that the first act of our overlordship was to just hand over their lands to their worst enemy who had lost the war because maybe Metapontion might have possibly joined in. What about this discourages Taras from picking a fight with us in the future? We even admit that we are betrayers, justifying their grievance. Gaining the Messapii in such a way would just cause us more problems.
 
Cetashwayo said:
The terms were as follows:
  • That Eretria will accept fault for provoking the war, but Taras will accept fault for starting it
  • That Taras, the defeated party, will concede defeat and give an indemnity of 120 talents to Eretria (of which 30 talents will go to Barbaroi allies and 10 talents to the Thuriians)
  • That Eretria will return the talents it took from the cities of Hydrus and Kalliopolis, acknowleding the fault lies with Taras (20 talents returned)
  • That Eretria will be entrusted with dominion over the Messapii, in exchange for allowing a small land connection between Taras and its dependencies along the coast
  • That Aoxenta will not be resettled again by Messapii, and will be acknowledged to be within the Tarentine sphere of influence
  • That the Messapii will not be allowed to make war or peace without the permission of Eretria
  • That a treaty of peace will be signed between Taras, Eretria, Thurii, and Metapontion, preventing any party from attacking the others for twenty years
  • That the two cities shall exchange their prisoners and war dead, returning any stolen armor or personal articles taken from their opponent
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Kipeci said:
Concluding a peace here will grant Taras new lands that link it with its dependencies, conveniently side-stepping the issue of its appalling navy. This land is taken from the Messapii, who will be weakened and note that the first act of our overlordship was to just hand over their lands to their worst enemy who had lost the war because maybe Metapontion might have possibly joined in. What about this discourages Taras from picking a fight with us in the future? We even admit that we are betrayers, justifying their grievance. Gaining the Messapii in such a way would just cause us more problems.
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@Kipeci Where does the peace terms have us admit to be betrayers?
 
Kipeci said:
Concluding a peace here will grant Taras new lands that link it with its dependencies, conveniently side-stepping the issue of its appalling navy. This land is taken from the Messapii, who will be weakened and note that the first act of our overlordship was to just hand over their lands to their worst enemy who had lost the war because maybe Metapontion might have possibly joined in. What about this discourages Taras from picking a fight with us in the future? We even admit that we are betrayers, justifying their grievance. Gaining the Messapii in such a way would just cause us more problems.
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Taras would justify their grievance whether we take the peace or not. The Messapii have no hope of fighting us, and Brention and that other city would side with us if their king were foolish enough to try to deny us, with Taras having no hope of intervening lest they break the sacred peace and anger the Gods. Yes they have the land route now, yes the Messapii lose land, but it is land of no special importance to us, and their armies would march through if war were to break out regardless. Aoxenta fell, a walled fortress, quickly enough. If they could not hold Aoxenta, then they would no more hold the coastal road in the event of a conflict. I would already argue this war was ill timed, as we could have broken off cities from both the Messapii and Dauni with little trouble had we avoided conflict. Yet we allied with the whole of the Messapii anyway, went to war with Taras, and have humbled them.

Honor is for the living, so let us not pursue honor into our potential graves, take the peace sworn before the Gods, and depart as victors. Let the Italiotes think what they will, Taras certainly will with no invitation from us. We will become stronger for it, we are becoming stronger. As Taras will attempt to gird their loins for the conflict 20 years hence, so too will we be busy ourselves.

Let the Messapii complain, what will it avail them, with disloyal cities and a frightened people?
 
Kipeci said:
Concluding a peace here will grant Taras new lands that link it with its dependencies, conveniently side-stepping the issue of its appalling navy. This land is taken from the Messapii, who will be weakened and note that the first act of our overlordship was to just hand over their lands to their worst enemy who had lost the war because maybe Metapontion might have possibly joined in. What about this discourages Taras from picking a fight with us in the future? We even admit that we are betrayers, justifying their grievance. Gaining the Messapii in such a way would just cause us more problems.
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We admit we provoked them, which of course we did. Taras still admits fault for actually starting the war. The land they pick up is hardly all the considerable compared to gaining recognition of Eretrian overlordship of the Messapii. A generous peace with them that shows we did not intend to conquer or destroy them is the biggest boost we can give to their peace party. And to be honest given the Messapii performance who cares what they think? They performed badly enough it's clear that they are totally dependent on Eretria not to get mulched by Taras. They aren't giving up any actual cities in the deal anyway.

And if you're worried about Tarantine revanchism then creating a bond of treaties with Metapontion and other Italiote cities to enforce the Common Peace is a pretty effective safeguard. As it is what exactly would fighting on do? It's pretty fucking clear we aren't actually going to siege out Taras, they'll gain a bunch of allies, and every season the war drags on creates the chance that the Dauni will start raiding or Corinth and Sparta will come to their aid or Syracuse will start something. And the risk of suffering crippling casualties among citizens increases with every battle we fight. There's a reason Spartan policy was not to fight too many wars, and look at what happened when they threw that away to grasp at an ephemeral hegemony.
 
Mortenkam said:
@Kipeci Where does the peace terms have us admit to be betrayers?
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Refer to how the peace indicates that Eretria provoked the war. Then reference what the Tarentines stated as their casus belli:

Cetashwayo said:
Citizens, war on the Horizon. Myron Aristeides, Proboulos and first citizen of Taras, has delivered to us an ultimatum that is unacceptable; full withdrawal from alliance with the Messapii, admittance in our guilt in betraying Taras to Kerkyra all those years ago, and an indemnity for the insult.
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We are saying that we are guilty of this per the terms of the peace.
 
Kipeci said:
Refer to how the peace indicates that Eretria provoked the war. Then reference what the Tarentines stated as their casus belli:



We are saying that we are guilty of this per the terms of the peace.
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Thats not what I read at all.

@Cetashwayo Can you clarify this for us? Is the treaty making us admit that we betrayed Taras to Kerkyra?

That was Taras ultimatum. This is Metapontions, with the potential backing of the rest of the Italiote league. Taras can agree, or not, as it will. But we are not admitting guilt in betraying them, we are admitting guilt in provoking the war.
 
Kipeci said:
Refer to how the peace indicates that Eretria provoked the war. Then reference what the Tarentines stated as their casus belli:



We are saying that we are guilty of this per the terms of the peace.
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Which we factually are. We provoked this war by allying with the messapii.

We knew it would provoke a war. We were explicitly told of that and many voted for the alliance because of that.
 
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Professor Vesca said:
@Cetashwayo Can you clarify this for us? Is the treaty making us admit that we betrayed Taras to Kerkyra?
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Uh, no, the Tarentines are explicitly chastised in the Metapontine peace for starting the war. Their ultimatum terms were unfair. Metapontion's reference to provocation is Eretria deciding to ally the Messapii despite knowing the Tarentines were going to war with the Messapii soon. Taras bears greater guilt for reacting with an ultimatum rather than a negotiation and thus forcing Eretria to war, but Eretria's sudden intrusion into a matter between Taras and the Messapii was a clear provocation.
 
Professor Vesca said:
We will not return what was taken, but we will compensate Taras cities with talents equal to that taken by the Rowers. Thoughts?
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My thought is that we shouldn't compensate Taras, or her subjects.

I do think we should gift them, with an amount roughly comparable to the amount we would compensate them by, and more besides, as a sign of our strength and generosity.

It is a subtle, but meaningful difference - by accepting a gift, they place themselves in our debt; whereas compensation can imply fault.
 
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