Potentially both, though it's more likely that if Taras invades the Messapii next year an emboldened and more powerful Messapii leader would probably avoid pissing off Eretria.
So if we go through with the promotion of Artahias and we made secret treaties with other cities, our treaties would probably say something like "You will support Artathias against Taras, but if this ultimately fails we will make sure to save you from the yoke".

Is that the idea?
 
So if we go through with the promotion of Artahias and we made secret treaties with other cities, our treaties would probably say something like "You will support Artathias against Taras, but if this ultimately fails we will make sure to save you from the yoke".

Is that the idea?

Think of it more as the price of assisting him rather than outright partitioning him with Taras. The secret treaties would mean immediate defections, to prevent conflict with Taras.
 
[X] [Insurance] Allow the Shrine of Ploutos to handle merchant insurance with state support [-20 talent one-time fee to Shrine of Ploutos].
[X] [Tribute] Levies. More Peuketii allies in the cavalry and light infantry will serve to augment's the city's armies [+2.5% levy from the Peuketii, +654 Levies].
[X] [Collection] Have them come to us. We can maintain a bond of trust with the tributaries without impinging in their private affairs and expand the festival of tribute to build fraternal feeling. [-2 public subsidy upkeep per year].
[X] [League] We have already conceded much to the Metics. The league can afford to wait a few years [Special League policies in 349 OL election platforms].
[X] [Alliance] Better to conclude secret treaties with some cities without raising the specter of war with Taras.
[X] [King] Better to keep the Confederacy weak and potentially reliant on Eretrian direction.

Forgot I didn't vote.
Also this thread reminded me I bought 25 feet of paracord for 99 cents at goodwill so im going to try my hand at making a shepherds sling.
Let's hope I dont break anything.
 
As was noted sometime earlier in the Quest, Rome was a huge game changer in terms of being to expand its concept of citizenship much more readily than other classical Mediterranean cultures centered around cities were able to, as well as their various "tiers" of allied status or semi-citizenship. The demograhic advantages are enormous, even if it can also bring tensions like those that errupted in the Social Wars. Roman use of Allies as a crucial part of their military success is probably the single most under-appreciated facet about them in popular consciousness, IMO.

Eretria's extensive engagement with and slow Hellenisation of her barbaroi allies, and our policies of being so open and accepting of metics, and creating almost kind of second class citizen status for them, are also helpful in this vein. But we'd have a long way to go to rival someone like Rome, if it's even possible at all. Honestly it may not be.

One reason I would like to do the League meeting earlier is because Leagues actually represents maybe our best chance to find our own model that could compete with something like this. A united League capable of more effective cooperation and real ties would have a much deeper financial and demographic well to draw on, and give us an authentically Greek route towards our own kind of state-formation.

Like I have said in muh very first posts in this thread, we must become like Romans, or we'll just be a footnote in history for being a weird departure from the Grecian city-state model and another notch in the string of Roman conquests to reunify Italia under their domain.
 
Well, the physicality of all our prominent citizens.

Eretria is a lithocracy. To be allowed to speak in the Assembly, you have to haul a big-ass rock to the Assembly and stand on it. Men who don't have ambitions of public speaking, don't need that particular element of physical training
Wouldn't their supporters be lifting their platforms as well? I can't remember the exact passage but I believe one incident involved around a hundred people lifting one of these rocks.

And it's not even a simple case of each demes leader- anyone wants to speak needs fellows to lift him. We can safely assume that for every citizen voicing their concerns at the Ekklesia there are several lifting them, and I'm skeptical the speakers are limited to the ones specifically mentioned in passage. But I may be assuming too much.
 
"There is much in what Phokion says that is of merit. We could be more prepared than we are now. Whenever we choose to go to war, we might always wish to delay, so we were better prepared in future. There are many things we might wish to have, including a winged Pegasus to carry us to victory. The risks we face are real.

The virtue of fighting now is that we can choose the moment of decision, and Taras will not have made designs against us, either. To pretend that the war between Athens and Sparta will not reach our shores eventually also seems foolish to me. It will come whether invited or not. We can choose to meet it head on, or wait until it happens of its own accord. Both ways lie perils.

Perhaps we will be lucky, and manage to fully subborn the Dauni, defeat Korynthos at sea, and ally with Metapontion, whilst the Tarantines wait placidly for us to turn to them. If so, then that would inarguably be much to our advantage. But I also am not so sure that they have become cowards. It will not be difficult for them to see our eventual designs, and enlist whatever aid they can.

If the Tarantines attack whilst we are half-finished dealing with the Dauni, a threat that has been discussed seriously in this Assembly and should not be forgotten, then we may regret having waited. In the long run I fear Taras more.

If we defeat them, we make it clear that we are the strongest city of the Greeks within Italia, and that will make every one of our dealings going forward that much easier.

Both courses of action before us have dangers, and promise rewards. We must choose one."
"I submit that in any war with either the Tarentines or the Dauni while both still exist, the one we do not initially declare war upon is guaranteed to attack us if not themselves distracted. I also submit that of our two troublesome neighbors, the Tarentines are the ones who we know will be distracted by their coming war with the Messapii. Thus, crush the Dauni while the Tarentines are at war with any Messapii cities that don't immediately beg for our protection, and when we later come to blows with Taras we no longer must concern ourselves about a Dauni knife sinking into our back at the worst possible moment.

As far as the ongoing war to the east, I do agree that we will inevitably be drawn into it. However, I would rather wait for the great powers of Hellas to weaken each other first, that we might extract the best price for our aid and be less badly outmatched by the manpower and financial reserves of the older, larger cities of our once-homeland. If we had wished not to wait until our aid might be the decisive element to break the deadlock between the battered factions, we would have needed to involve ourselves in the war immediately so that our help might allow our chosen side to bring the fighting to a swift conclusion. At the present time, entry would merely serve to maximize the time we spend throwing away lives and treasure against the warriors of Lakonia or the silver of Attika without our even our greatest possible amount of aid being enough to end the war in favor of our selected allies. Timing is everything in war, and now is not yet our time.

Thus speaks Methodios, son of Pelagios."
 
Wouldn't their supporters be lifting their platforms as well? I can't remember the exact passage but I believe one incident involved around a hundred people lifting one of these rocks.

And it's not even a simple case of each demes leader- anyone wants to speak needs fellows to lift him. We can safely assume that for every citizen voicing their concerns at the Ekklesia there are several lifting them, and I'm skeptical the speakers are limited to the ones specifically mentioned in passage. But I may be assuming too much.
To clarify:

Any citizen can speak at a meeting of the Eretrian Assembly, and be heeded- provided they brought a rock to stand on.

Bigger, more impressive rocks tend to be associated with bigger, more impressive responses to your proposals. If you want to be influential in a big way, yes, you're going to need a rock too big to carry.

For men of lesser importance (e.g. Leukos the Accountant) a one-man rock is acceptable.

What it comes down to is that if you are active in Eretrian politics, you will be carrying a rock- either for yourself to stand on, or for someone else to stand on while looking really impressive by having a 500-pound rock or whatever.

[X] [Insurance] Set large limitations on state insurance and have merchants pay a fee for insurance. [-2 public upkeep per turn].
[X] [Tribute] Talents. Better to receive coin and kind from the Peuketii in order to help fund the city's ventures [Peuketii tribute increases to 13.1 talents per turn].
[X] [Collection] Dispatch inspectors to them. Better for our agents to be among them in order to catch any sign of suspicion or plotting than to hope the barbaroi will always keep us in good stead [-2 public subsidy upkeep per year].
[X] [League] Let us listen to the concerns of our Hellene allies [League Synedrion will be called next year].
[X] [Alliance] Better to conclude secret treaties with some cities without raising the specter of war with Taras.
 
My own view is better to try and deal with Taras sooner rather then later. Athens has tied up Cornith attention back in mainland greece thanks to the naval victories over Corinth. Now is the time, the Peuketii are strong vassals and we can increase the levy size from them, the Mesapii will fight alongside us in defense of their lands. Taras stands relatively isolated on Land and on Sea, why allow them a chance to better position themselves?
 
War with Taras at any time is going to be a risk - they're a big, powerful city, very much in our own weight class, and not to be taken lightly.
However, at this moment, we have the potential to leverage the Messapii against them, and undertake a conflict whilst the powers of mainland Hellas and Sicily are somewhat distracted by their own local rivalries. An opportunity to convincingly place ourselves as the dominant power in the heel of Italia, over Taras, without it involving taking a definite side in the conflict between Athens and Sparta is unlikely to recur soon.

@Cetashwayo would there be any mercenaries available to employ if we were to go to war with Taras?
 
@Cetashwayo would there be any mercenaries available to employ if we were to go to war with Taras?

Bah, say both Mnemnon and Kyros. The city has no need of common mercenaries when it has both stalwart allies and its own citizens to defend it!

Which is another way of saying that purchasing mercenaries is not politically viable given the current factional arrangement and that many citizens feel they are an unnecessary, dishonorable, and undemocratic bunch. If the city lost some battles this opposition would erode.
 
[] [Alliance] Better to conclude secret treaties with some cities without raising the specter of war with Taras.
[] [King] Better to keep the Confederacy weak and potentially reliant on Eretrian direction.

To be sure, keeping the confederacy weak means they are divided. I don't think we want to micromanage, monitor them, and have them trying to blunt the army of Taras but without a subsidy or direct military support. We'd have a situation similar to the one we encountered on the way to Syrakuse in terms of managing who does what or goes where in the coalition.

Giving secret treaties means we would be partitioning the Messapii with Taras, but would leave Taras and Eretria as neighbors. Yes, Taras might be bloodied, and digesting gains, but we want more.

Instead, if we were to provide the Messapii with a leader, we'd still be cleaving off some cities as payment, but we'd now leave the Confederacy much more competent in facing off against Taras. They may even succeed in fending them off or scoring a victory.

Win-Win for us either way. We get new tributaries and a strong buffer rather than a meal for Taras to consume.

The other benefit is that it gives us more time needed to conquer and digest the Dauni.

[X] [Insurance] Allow the Shrine of Ploutos to handle merchant insurance with state support [-20 talent one-time fee to Shrine of Ploutos].
[X] [Tribute] Levies. More Peuketii allies in the cavalry and light infantry will serve to augment's the city's armies [+2.5% levy from the Peuketii, +654 Levies].
[X] [Collection] Have them come to us. We can maintain a bond of trust with the tributaries without impinging in their private affairs and expand the festival of tribute to build fraternal feeling. [-2 public subsidy upkeep per year].
[X] [League] Let us listen to the concerns of our Hellene allies [League Synedrion will be called next year].
[X] [Alliance] Better to conclude secret treaties with some cities without raising the specter of war with Taras.
[X] [King] Promote King Artahias as a strong leader for the Confederacy to lead it against Taras and keep the peace with Eretria [-15 talent fee].
 
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Bah, say both Mnemnon and Kyros. The city has no need of common mercenaries when it has both stalwart allies and its own citizens to defend it!

Which is another way of saying that purchasing mercenaries is not politically viable given the current factional arrangement and that many citizens feel they are an unnecessary, dishonorable, and undemocratic bunch. If the city lost some battles this opposition would erode.
What about us potentially funding some underhanded and undemocratic mercs to stiffen the Messapii?
 
[X] [Insurance] Allow the Shrine of Ploutos to handle merchant insurance with state support [-20 talent one-time fee to Shrine of Ploutos].
[X] [Tribute] Levies. More Peuketii allies in the cavalry and light infantry will serve to augment's the city's armies [+2.5% levy from the Peuketii, +654 Levies].
[X] [Collection] Have them come to us. We can maintain a bond of trust with the tributaries without impinging in their private affairs and expand the festival of tribute to build fraternal feeling. [-2 public subsidy upkeep per year].
[X] [League] Let us listen to the concerns of our Hellene allies [League Synedrion will be called next year].
[X] [Alliance] Better to conclude secret treaties with some cities without raising the specter of war with Taras.
[X] [King] Promote King Artahias as a strong leader for the Confederacy to lead it against Taras and keep the peace with Eretria [-15 talent fee].
 
OOC: Ah, screw it. Let's have a go.

[X] [Insurance] Allow the Shrine of Ploutos to handle merchant insurance with state support [-20 talent one-time fee to Shrine of Ploutos].
[X] [Tribute] Levies. More Peuketii allies in the cavalry and light infantry will serve to augment's the city's armies [+2.5% levy from the Peuketii, +654 Levies].
[X] [Collection] Have them come to us. We can maintain a bond of trust with the tributaries without impinging in their private affairs and expand the festival of tribute to build fraternal feeling. [-2 public subsidy upkeep per year].
[X] [League] Let us listen to the concerns of our Hellene allies [League Synedrion will be called next year].

A young man at his first ever assembly hesitates, then stands to speak.

"Fellow citizens of the ekklesia, it seems that we are all in agreement that this war with Taras is the war we have to have. This is not controversial. The question that lies before us is thus:

'Do we come to war, to do we let war come to us?'

Fellow citizens, if this is the war we have to have, then we cannot afford to war in half-measures. We set out to secure a defensive alliance, and an alliance we should secure. Partitioning the Messapii now will strengthen Taras, our inevitable foe in the inevitable war, as they grab the pieces of the Messapii we cannot secure.

I hear the concerns. I understand the reasoning to delay the inevitable conflict in the hope of favorable circumstances. But I fear that said favorable circumstances will not come, and that war will come to Eretria Eskhata on a day we do not want, with a Taras stronger and deadlier than they are now.

...

...

Ah, so says Heliodoros son of Giorgios."


[X] [Alliance] Accept a full defensive alliance with the Messapii Confederacy.
[X] [King] Better to keep the Confederacy weak and potentially reliant on Eretrian direction.
 
[X] [Insurance] Set large limitations on state insurance and have merchants pay a fee for insurance. [-2 public upkeep per turn].
[X] [Tribute] Levies. More Peuketii allies in the cavalry and light infantry will serve to augment's the city's armies [+2.5% levy from the Peuketii, +654 Levies].
[X] [Collection] Have them come to us. We can maintain a bond of trust with the tributaries without impinging in their private affairs and expand the festival of tribute to build fraternal feeling. [-2 public subsidy upkeep per year].
[X] [League] Let us listen to the concerns of our Hellene allies [League Synedrion will be called next year].
[X] [Alliance] Accept a full defensive alliance with the Messapii Confederacy.
[X] [King] Promote King Artahias as a strong leader for the Confederacy to lead it against Taras and keep the peace with Eretria [-15 talent fee].

Weak allies are a liability, not an asset. Perhaps Artahias will turn on us later; that is a problem we will deal with then. We know how to handle traitors– and if if we suspect Artahias is wavering in his loyalty, we can remind him of that. Right now, our problem is Taras, not the Messapii.
 
The festival option for the tributaries which is winning handily will encourage contests of hunting and archery, though this will mostly be the preserve of the wealthy.
Idea for festival!
The first battle before Eretia was not yet really founded had the chase after the attacking cavalery. Is such an endurance run not a possibility? I am a bit iffy on the distances to the next city (but probaly to far) so a long distance run from a few hills over back to the city could be an event?
 
Let me start by saying that I believe our chances to block Tarantine ambitions for hegemony over the Messapii are decent, but there are...
... risks of defeat. Together with our Epulian allies and the support of Thurii, the Messapii and we outnumber the city of Taras. However as has been pointed out the Tarantine Cavalry and Hoplites are some of the most renowned among the Italiotes. At the same time the extend support from our allies is still uncertain. To make Thuriian support available will have to make concessions to Metapontion. To guarantee support from our Epulian League allies we will have to agree to at least some of their demands. The quality of support from our new Messapii allies would also be uncertain. For we seem to hesitate in supporting their king in his intentions to unify their federation. I will remind people of the last coalition war, where a weak leadership of Metapontion cost us many Eretrian lives.

... dangers of victory. So, let us say we manage to assemble a strong enough force from our allies and beat Taras on the field what then? They retreat to their walls where we can not assail them. So any victory of ours is unlikely to massively weaken Taras. Rather they will probably accede to delay their ambitions on the Salento peninsula, while they seek out new allies. For both Metapontion and Krotone will watch this conflict with interest and should we prove the victors, their fear of Eretrian hegemony will grow. At the same time our diplomatic efforts over the next decade will have to be diverted to ensure our control over the Messapii. Finally our armies will have to be kept close to home, for Taras will pounce the moment we are distracted.

...costs in opportunities.
Certainly, a major concern with the Tarentines might be that if Eretria entered into a defensive alliance with the Messapii they would be unable to make war on the Dauni,
Next year we will start our subversion of the Dauni. We don't know yet what opportunities will be presented to us, but if we are embroiled in a war with Taras they are likely to pass before we can act on them.

In summary I would urge the assembly to not bind ourselves to the Messapii and a resulting decades long struggle with Taras. Lets us take those cities that freely accept our hegemony. And while Taras spends itself on dominating the peninsula we deal with Dauni. With Taras growing in strength an alliance with Metapontion should be easier to negotiate. The city of Taras might be strong, but by allying ourselves to Thurii and Metapontion we will be able to contain them to their corner of Italia.
 
Like I have said in muh very first posts in this thread, we must become like Romans, or we'll just be a footnote in history for being a weird departure from the Grecian city-state model and another notch in the string of Roman conquests to reunify Italia under their domain.
I would rather not beat the Romans by being the Romans. Let us find our own way - League building, for example, is promising. It didn't work IOTL, but that's the challenge, innit?
 
So...assuming that we defeat Taras and then besiege them...

Is the tactic of digging under the walls something that is already known? As for battering rams...the Spartans are supposedly the first Greeks to use a battering ram, at Plataea during the Peloponnesian war. Which is this year in quest I think? And the Romans are already using them at least five years before Eretria's landing in Italia.

So can't we do that in quest?
 
To guarantee support from our Epulian League allies we will have to agree to at least some of their demands.

You know from what i saw player's pretty much gave them almost everything in last games and yet they didn't even want to go to war with us and had threatened with a Veto.

Now it seems that they want more, i pretty much am thinking to just ditch them after the war, they just take and take and give nothing in return.

Alliances and Leagues are nice but if they want to get something from us they should be ready to give something in return from now on.
 
You know from what i saw player's pretty much gave them almost everything in last games and yet they didn't even want to go to war with us and had threatened with a Veto.

Now it seems that they want more, i pretty much am thinking to just ditch them after the war, they just take and take and give nothing in return.

Alliances and Leagues are nice but if they want to get something from us they should be ready to give something in return from now on.

Well, given you intimidated them into subjugation and take talents from them every turn that you spend on whatever you want as well as expecting their military service even in wars that are not their business, I would say they are somewhat justified :V
 
Well, given you intimidated them into subjugation and take talents from them every turn that you spend on whatever you want as well as expecting their military service even in wars that are not their business, I would say they are somewhat justified :V

You mean we are protect them and gave them option to block us if they don't want to go to war?
Not to mention other goodies like like giving the access to our port .
 
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