...This makes me concerned. IC it is noted that our citizens, a good chunk of our army, are dissatisfied by the changes from the Metic reforms, now we're also going to do League reforms when they're tired of giving stuff away.

Right before we go into a war with a peer Opponent and need every advantage we can get.

I don't like it, I just do not feel like it is a smart idea to cause dissatisfaction in the city right before we have to rely on these guys to fight for us. It's a definitively bad idea.

While this is certainly a concern, the kind of civil strife I'm talking about is more like an internal civil war, violence in the streets, recent coup, or other incident. Being frustrated with recent political happenings is different than being less willing to fight for the city.
 
While this is certainly a concern, the kind of civil strife I'm talking about is more like an internal civil war, violence in the streets, recent coup, or other incident. Being frustrated with recent political happenings is different than being less willing to fight for the city.
Oh, cool, fine then. Less concerned about it.
 
This system also helps highlight just how fucked it would be to fight the Romans. You defeat their army, and it was a desperate fight, but you did, it was a total slaughter. Sure, you lost 10% of your citizens, but you did it.

Too bad the Romans just raised another army and they're coming back. Better hope to fuck you win this battle too. And the next one. And the next one. And the next one.
 
This system also helps highlight just how fucked it would be to fight the Romans. You defeat their army, and it was a desperate fight, but you did, it was a total slaughter. Sure, you lost 10% of your citizens, but you did it.

Too bad the Romans just raised another army and they're coming back. Better hope to fuck you win this battle too. And the next one. And the next one. And the next one.
#JustPyrrhusThings
 
War among Ancient Greeks

I think that this is a good time to address how war worked among the Ancient Greeks, really worked, and the difficulties of fighting as a polis. It will better inform both the decision to go to war or not here, and military options in the future, as a polis. It can also serve as an educational primer on why things are the way they are, and why reforms or innovation are difficult. What I do not want to do is constantly be telling people no in a way that is not satisfactory. I would want my answers as to why something is not possible to be as comprehensible as why something is possible.

The first principle of Hellene Warfare in the classical period is that war is the province of male society. Male society is centered around the achievement of glory, wealth, and recognition, and all three are delivered in spades by war. Since war is the province of male society, in order to change how warfare is conducted, the society must be changed. The levies which Eretria Eskhata draws on are not from professional cavalry or professional infantry, but from smallholding farmers and large estate-owners. In a time where providing equipment to citizen-soldiers is very expensive when you already have to supply them and pay them campaign salaries (with campaign salaries being a recent innovation), the citizen-soldier provides their own equipment, their own horses. This also means that training for wartime is reflected through festivals; the Spartans were renowned as dancers in Hellas, but that is not just because they like dancing. The coordination required for dancing to a tune is also the coordination required for marching to a tune. Once again, the society and the military are one, and so the society provides the basis of battlefield training. This is why steppe nomads are horse archers; the skills they use for horse archery are used every single day.

The second principle of Hellene Warfare is that cities are small. Many poleis have a few hundred citizens or less. There are only a few dozen poleis which have enough people to gain real power in the Mediterranean, and maintaining this manpower is essential for their success. If warfare is the province of male society, then loss in warfare is a loss to the entire society. In 494 BCE Sparta defeated Argos. Why was this defeat permanent, ending Argos' ability to contest Sparta for the Peloponnese? It was permanent because Argos lost 6,000 men. 6,000 members of its citizenry, 6,000 fathers, 6,000 sons and husbands and workers and tax-payers. The depth of this catastrophe preventing Argos from challenging Sparta again until 421 BCE, when it built a coalition with Athenai and other Peloponnesian states to overthrow Spartiate hegemony. What this means is that cities cannot absorb losses for very long. Wars either drag out without much happening for long periods of time, or are ended in massive battles that destroy the lives of an entire generation on one side or the other. From this we are better able to understand Rome's success; here too was a citizen militia, but a citizen militia that by the time of the punic wars could call on an effective manpower of 750,000 Romans and Allies. This was so far beyond the scope of any other Mediterranean power that Rome's success can become obvious in hindsight, but even this massive reserve has limits, and the Second Punic War wreaked havoc on Roman society by killing so many men.

The third principle of Hellene Warfare is that it is bloody. We have been told by some historians that battles had casualty rates of anywhere between 5-10% for the victor and 10-20% for the loser. That does not seem like much to us at first. But once we begin to think about what that adds up to over time, we begin to realize the real weight of battle. Those are 5-10% of your men you will never get back. Those men could have been merchants, fathers, statesmen, heroes, speakers, but they are dead. And if you are the loser, casualty rates can go even higher, especially if you do not have a cavalry or infantry screen to protect you. Contrary to some arguments, the Hellenes took great pleasure in slaughtering the enemy when they began to flee. Xenophon called it one of the greatest pleasures of battle. The Polis is therefore perilously fragile; a single battle, if it is spectacularly unlucky, can undo decades of work. War is a high-stakes battle where states put their entire society on the line. Do not expect to leave even victorious battles unscathed.

All of this amounts to the final principle of Hellene Warfare, which is to protect your own citizens and slaughter those of the enemy. This is not the same thing as winning a battle; the main goal of the main portion of the battle, the push and pull of the phalanx, is to achieve that decisive break. Once the enemy is broken, the slaughter begins, and this is where there is a massive free-for-all in which men have their throats cut begging for mercy or are led into traps and cut down until the ground is sticky with blood. The goal of warfare is not just to achieve some strategic goal, or to win territory, but to make it so that the enemy cannot threaten you or your people ever again. If that means ensuring that you have created a desert called peace, so be it. It also means that innovation in warfare is discouraged in good reason; a bad innovation, or a foolish trick, can cost you everything.

The inclusion of sacred or elite units somewhat changes this calculus, but also creates new risks. The hieros ekdromoi and Kleos Exoria are capable of manuevers, formations, and feats that other units are not, but they are also priceless. You cannot continually replace the best of your men; eventually you will run out of best men, and the city's elite units will become a shadow of their former selves. In a crisis or a total rout, furthermore, the enemy may particularly target your elite units, with the intention of breaking the spirit of your entire city. At the battle of Chaeronea Alexander attacked the Sacred Band of Thebai, the heroic and famed elite unit of the Thebans, and slaughtered them down to a man. If the city were to replace the Kleos Exoria and hieros ekdromoi with new men, the institutions might remain, but it will take years to get them back to the same level of ability as they once had.

What this Means for Game Mechanics

All of this is to say that in the past, Eretria has faced relatively easy odds. Even when it has not triumphed, there has been little mechanical impact beyond political chaos or humiliation. Now, things are far different. You can expect that a single victory in battle against the enemy could secure you hegemony. You can also expect, however, that losses will hit hard. Eretria has one of the largest reserves of freemen in the Greek World, but even it is not limitless in its capacity, and throwing away the lives of both your own citizens and those of your allies will eventually empty your city and leave it recovering for a generation. When confronting enemies of near-equal strength, or greater strength, it must always be approached with a sense of caution and awareness that there will be few second chances. Every war, every battle, has the potential for catastrophe. It is strategy that prevents you from getting into a situation where you face a rout, and tactics that can rescue you from a bad numerical or geographical position.

With that in mind, warfare will work like so. First, players will select from a number of strategoi. All of these men have been serving with the city's council of generals for years, and can be trusted to be experienced in theory, though the years of peace means there are few among them who are true veterans. The strategoi will have their character statistics displayed, as well as their general plans to the assembly on how they seek to win a war. The assembly will elect that strategos that they feel has the best plan and the ability to enact it. The lead strategos will then be in charge of composing armies, leading them, and appointing from the other strategoi naval fleets or secondary armies. They will have overall command of the strategic vision of the city until such time that they are victorious, killed in battle, or recalled by the city due to some failure.

Battle will be composed of four phases, whose success is defined by rolls and modifiers. Modifiers will be extremely powerful, representing that although there is an element of chance in all battles, there are also fundamental realities of numbers or ability that moderate the randomness of fortune. There is the strategic phase. In this phase, armies will attempt to find a position advantageous to them and disadvantageous to the enemy. Light infantry, including both psilloi and allied skirmishers, as well as cavalry, are essential for this phase. Having superior cavalry and skirmishers in both numbers and skill will significantly improve the chance that you do well in this phase, placing you in a better position at the battle's start. Generals with some experience with skirmishing or the cavalry will help. Having a good position will give you permanent modifiers for the rest of the battle. There is one roll here with dependent modifiers.

Next is the skirmishing phase. In this phase, both armies' skirmishers and cavalry will attempt to drive the others from the field. Once again, this is where cavalry and skirmishers are king. Herodion the One-Eye was always best-known as a cavalry commander than as a leader of infantry, and his ability to win success in this phase was always unparalleled. The advantage of winning in this phase are three-fold. First, cavalry and skirmishers that are successful in this phase could flank the enemy, devastating their morale and cohesion. Second, if you win the battle, your cavalry and skirmishers have stripped away theirs and are able to slaughter their infantry with impunity, leading to massive casualties for the enemy forces that they might not recover from. Finally, if you lose the battle, your cavalry and skirmishers can screen and protect your infantry and reduce the number of casualties you take, allowing you to live to fight another day. There is one roll here with dependent modifiers.

Next is the collision phase. The main determinants of this phase are the quality, formation, and numbers of infantry on both sides. The majority of your citizens on the field of battle will be participating in this phase, colliding with the enemy in a phalanx pushing match that could determine the course of the battle. This phase ends when one side or the other routs, breaking; it is during a rout that most of the casualties occur, as men are stabbed in the back or as they try to strip off their armor and flee. In a hoplite battle, the best fighters are concentrated on the left flank, and the worst fighters on the right, with the left colliding first and the right last, though the very edge of the right-flank is also an honorable position due to its exposure. Maintaining cohesion on both flanks is important, and so there will be two rolls, one for the left flank and one for the right, with the right more likely to be broken and the left more likely to break through against the enemy. Then there will be a final roll, modified by the state of the two flanks, to determine whether you are successful in the collision phase.

Finally, there is the rout phase. This is the phase in which the true consequences of a battle will be played out, because once the enemy is broken your forces will begin to chase after them, and vice versa. If you are winning, your goal here is to leverage all of your success from prior phases (a good position, victory in skirmishing, victory in collision) in order to inflict as much slaughter and damage on the enemy as possible to ensure that this battle will be their last, and force them to make a crushing peace. If you are losing, your goal is to leverage any success in prior phases in order to protect and rescue as many of your citizens as possible from the impending slaughter. Doing so successfully here can be the difference between fighting another death and a humiliating peace. There is one roll here, dependent on modifiers from previous phases.

As you can tell, modifiers will begin to stack throughout a battle; winning each phase will make success in the next phase easier, until finally in the rout phase the only determinant is just how badly you inflict damage on the enemy. In the same way, losing each phase in succession will make things worse and worse and finally lead to a loss you cannot recover from. However, unless you are fighting truly powerful or impossible enemies, the reality is likely to fall somewhere in the middle, and Eretria Eskhata starts with several advantages over its neighbors, such as its loyal barbarian allies and its elite units which few in Italy or Sicily have yet emulated. But in the end it is Fortune and Victory who decide the outcome of war, and whether the city will see a triumphant return of its men or no return at all.

Examples of Modifiers

I won't spell out every single modifier involved in a battle, because although it isn't that complicated I don't want to show all of my cards and make people think too mechanically about battles. That being said, there are a few modifiers which are fairly obvious, and are dependent on a comparison to the enemy:
  • Numerical difference between components of both armies (How many more skirmishers do you have than them? How many more infantry?)
  • Difference in quality between components of both armies (Is your cavalry better than theirs? Are you facing Spartan Hoplites who are generally known to be of a better quality due to their lifestyle?)
  • Skill of the General in specific aspects of battle (Is this a courageous general who is willing to rally his men? Is he a cavalryman? How knowledgeable is he about terrain? Has he tried some crazy tactic?)
  • Morale of the armies (Is this an army of mercenaries who have been swayed by the enemy to turn sides? Is there a specific humiliation or patriotic sentiment propelling one side to fight more desperately than the other? Is there significant civil strife which makes citizens less willing to shed blood for their city?)
  • Phase modifiers (Did one army achieve a better position than the other? Did they win the skirmishing phase? Have one of their two flanks broken?)
Odds and Ends

Naval battles have similar rules but only three phases: Strategic phase, collision, and rout, with the strategic phase and collision being the most important. It is much easier for enemy fleets to withdraw from battle, so most casualties are concentrated during collision and the subsequent washing up of sailors on shore, and the strategic phase is far more important. Skill and quality of your fleets, as well as positioning, also matters far more than numbers in a naval battle.

The overall goal of this system is to still have the visceral and terrifying feeling that battles often had when the game first started without involving citizens in every aspect of the battle. There is a great deal of fear involved, because you are ultimately trusting an NPC to conduct your battle for you, but at the same time this is also where all the advantages, good (and bad) choices, and efforts of the players finally come to fruition through the modifiers. It makes for a terrifying ride, but it can also be a more satisfying one than the choice I had made after I realized battles were too much effort to do with maps and voted-upon-phases, when battles were merely described with some off-screen rolls. Here, players will be able to see the step-by-step of the battle unfolding (though doing visuals would be too crazy) and follow the army as it fights towards victory or defeat.

There will usually be only a single battle in a year, merely because that is what most poleis can endure at this stage, and sometimes a single land or naval battle can win the entire war.

In the end, all of this may be summed up as:

Have fun and try not to die!

This sounds like where possible, we prefer sieges to pitched battle -- especially where our fleets can ensure supplies of fodder, firewood, and clean water?

How effectively can we avoid pitched battle in this environment?
 
This sounds like where possible, we prefer sieges to pitched battle -- especially where our fleets can ensure supplies of fodder, firewood, and clean water?

How effectively can we avoid pitched battle in this environment?

I think that'll end up depending on our cavalry and light infantry, honestly. If we have better information, we can maneuver better on an operational/strategic level and maintain strategic initiative.

Although geography will also play a role, as well as what our ultimate objective is. We may not be able to avoid a pitched battle if the enemy digs in in a mountain pass, for instance, and we have no alternative routes.
 
Pitched battles are going to be extremely important and siegecraft in this period is negligible to nonexistent.

Philip of Macedon seems to have innovated a lot in this area, hiring the greatest engineers from all around the Hellenic world to build him impressive multi-decked siegetowers and engines. Honestly, this as much as the professional Macedonian military league he built is probably why he was able to steamroller the rest of Greece so quickly. Being able to take cities rapidly and decisively when they retreat behind their walls is almost the equivalent of having nuclear weaponry, in our context.

We can probably do some things to try and improve our ability to lay sieges, and develop some experience in siegecraft, but it will likely be expensive, and difficult, and require quite a bit trial and error. Which in itself poses risks. Not to say it isn't an avenue to explore, but everything has tradeoffs.
 
The first principle of Hellene Warfare in the classical period is that war is the province of male society. Male society is centered around the achievement of glory, wealth, and recognition, and all three are delivered in spades by war.
Ok, that does make it a bit weird on the final battle of the last iteration of this quest where we had a chance to take the right flank, first because the options were not YES! and HECK YEAH!!, and also because there was no malus for giving up an opportunity for prestige?
Contrary to some arguments, the Hellenes took great pleasure in slaughtering the enemy when they began to flee. Xenophon called it one of the greatest pleasures of battle.
I am again confused. Going back to the last quest, when we were fighting with our allies and Antipater died, everyone was surprised when we chased after the enemy. The enemy fought even harder after that because they did expected to be slaughtered again if they lost. Yet everyone was greek so would a slaughter not have been expected anyway?
In a hoplite battle, the best fighters are concentrated on the left flank, and the worst fighters on the right, with the left colliding first and the right last, though the very edge of the right-flank is also an honorable position due to its exposure. Maintaining cohesion on both flanks is important, and so there will be two rolls, one for the left flank and one for the right, with the right more likely to be broken and the left more likely to break through against the enemy. Then there will be a final roll, modified by the state of the two flanks, to determine whether you are successful in the collision phase.
Finally you also said in the last quest that the left side was prestigious because it was more exposed. Would that not make it the weaker and exposed side?
 
@Cetashwayo why did the romans have a man power reserve that was so much larger than any of the other Mediterranean civilizations?

They were able to incorporate all of Italy in mutually beneficial arrangements that doubled or even tripled their manpower. Most of Italy down to the 1st century BCE looked like this:


Meaning a patchwork of colonies surrounded by vast numbers of allies with varying degrees of status and citizenship. Even early on in its history Rome granted citizenship to nearby tribes like the Latins or Hernici, even if it didn't come with the same status as being fully Roman. Hannibal attempted to break allies off Rome during the Second Punic War since he knew it was the only way to win, but he was not successful. By comparison, of Rome's rivals, only the Samnites compared to Rome in manpower in their wars, and as a result the fighting between them was extraordinarily vicious and the Samnites inflicted several humiliating defeats, and arguably came close to winning in the first war. The Carthaginians were a colonial power with population of citizens that was large for the Mediterranean but remained a single city with a network of allies and dependencies. Pyrrhus famously lost by winning, because the Romans kept coming back and he didn't have enough manpower to outlast them or finish the job. The Greek poleis could not compare, the Gauls were disunited and disorganized with a number of them on the side of Rome, and the Seleukids were reliant on professional armies that could not be easily replenished, as well as not being able to access most of their population as a source of manpower due to the fact that they were an imperial power. None of this is to devalue the use of the Roman maniple as an excellent militia army, but the Romans could simply outlast their enemies in a way few others could.
 
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everyone was surprised when we chased after the enemy.
I think it's more they were surprised how well we chased after the enemy, our cavalry skill was a shock, it was good enough to rival Taras, the number one Cavalry user in Magna Graecia at the time, then there's our Ekadromoi, who can move far faster in pursuing an enemy, and medium infantry like that was never before seen in a Greek army.

Basically, we were expected to kill people, just not to be so damn good at it, and not to be so ruthless when we did.
 
Ok, that does make it a bit weird on the final battle of the last iteration of this quest where we had a chance to take the right flank, first because the options were not YES! and HECK YEAH!!, and also because there was no malus for giving up an opportunity for prestige?
I am again confused. Going back to the last quest, when we were fighting with our allies and Antipater died, everyone was surprised when we chased after the enemy. The enemy fought even harder after that because they did expected to be slaughtered again if they lost. Yet everyone was greek so would a slaughter not have been expected anyway?

Frankly part of this is that I knew less about how Hellene battles really worked and was going off outdated information that suggested Greeks did not chase after the enemy and most casualties were during battle. The second part of this is as McLuvin said, that you were very efficient in how fast you went and with quality cavalry. However it has been a while so I don't entirely recall what happened previously.

There's more than a few things from the first two quests which I would do differently now with more experience and knowledge, after all.

Finally you also said in the last quest that the left side was prestigious because it was more exposed. Would that not make it the weaker and exposed side?

Both the far-right side and the far-left side are exposed.

edit: my mistake; the far right is the point of pride.
 
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As was noted sometime earlier in the Quest, Rome was a huge game changer in terms of being to expand its concept of citizenship much more readily than other classical Mediterranean cultures centered around cities were able to, as well as their various "tiers" of allied status or semi-citizenship. The demograhic advantages are enormous, even if it can also bring tensions like those that errupted in the Social Wars. Roman use of Allies as a crucial part of their military success is probably the single most under-appreciated facet about them in popular consciousness, IMO.

Eretria's extensive engagement with and slow Hellenisation of her barbaroi allies, and our policies of being so open and accepting of metics, and creating almost kind of second class citizen status for them, are also helpful in this vein. But we'd have a long way to go to rival someone like Rome, if it's even possible at all. Honestly it may not be.

One reason I would like to do the League meeting earlier is because Leagues actually represents maybe our best chance to find our own model that could compete with something like this. A united League capable of more effective cooperation and real ties would have a much deeper financial and demographic well to draw on, and give us an authentically Greek route towards our own kind of state-formation.
 
As I recall, about the most shocking battlefield thing we did was some of our psiloi getting a bit rambunctious and decapitating Peuketti so they could throw their heads at their mates.
Sadly, my proposal to make them a permanent unit was declined. :(
 
As I recall, about the most shocking battlefield thing we did was some of our psiloi getting a bit rambunctious and decapitating Peuketti so they could throw their heads at their mates.
Sadly, my proposal to make them a permanent unit was declined. :(


It will eventually be possible, perhaps even after this war, and then you and Kilopi will finally get off my back about it :V
 
Both the far-right side and the far-left side are exposed.
Still, would the fact that most people are right handed not make the right side easier and safer?
As was noted sometime earlier in the Quest, Rome was a huge game changer in terms of being to expand its concept of citizenship much more readily than other classical Mediterranean cultures centered around cities were able to, as well as their various "tiers" of allied status or semi-citizenship. The demograhic advantages are enormous, even if it can also bring tensions like those that errupted in the Social Wars. Roman use of Allies as a crucial part of their military success is probably the single most under-appreciated facet about them in popular consciousness, IMO.

Eretria's extensive engagement with and slow Hellenisation of her barbaroi allies, and our policies of being so open and accepting of metics, and creating almost kind of second class citizen status for them, are also helpful in this vein. But we'd have a long way to go to rival someone like Rome, if it's even possible at all. Honestly it may not be.

One reason I would like to do the League meeting earlier is because Leagues actually represents maybe our best chance to find our own model that could compete with something like this. A united League capable of more effective cooperation and real ties would have a much deeper financial and demographic well to draw on, and give us an authentically Greek route towards our own kind of state-formation.
To be fair that is still an army/state that existed 200 years in the future, so being unable to match that is unsurprising. >3>
As I recall, about the most shocking battlefield thing we did was some of our psiloi getting a bit rambunctious and decapitating Peuketti so they could throw their heads at their mates.
Sadly, my proposal to make them a permanent unit was declined. :(
If I recall Leontios was blamed for that so off with that.
 
If we really want to maintain a permanent, prestigious unit of men armed with javelins as their primary weapon, personally I think a real route forward might be marines. Not so much for our triremes, which would not be able to carry more than a handful and don't really need them, but as a kind of commerce protection force. Stick a dozen of them on a merchant ship, and pirates are going to look for easier pickings most of the time, because it just isn't worth the losses they'd inflict.

The armament required of a naval fighter - javelins or harpoons for throwing, a helmet and perhaps some kind of chest defence that can be easily pulled off if you go into the water- are ideal for a unit of elite skirmishers. Moreover, naval fighting is very prestigious to us, and we could give them some kind of stipend just by extending the arrangement we use for our rowers.

Then we'd have several hundred lightly-armed men with javelins, who would spend a decent chunk of their time ashore training, with a decent amount of prestige and a somewhat professional military ethos. Boom.

They would probably end up doing more far more for us in terms of military achievement on land than on sea, but honestly, that kind of weird military idiosyncrasy happens all the time. :lol
 
It will eventually be possible, perhaps even after this war, and then you and Kilopi will finally get off my back about it :V
Being told we couldn't take heads was most Gauling!

As was noted sometime earlier in the Quest, Rome was a huge game changer in terms of being to expand its concept of citizenship much more readily than other classical Mediterranean cultures centered around cities were able to, as well as their various "tiers" of allied status or semi-citizenship. The demograhic advantages are enormous, even if it can also bring tensions like those that errupted in the Social Wars. Roman use of Allies as a crucial part of their military success is probably the single most under-appreciated facet about them in popular consciousness, IMO.

Eretria's extensive engagement with and slow Hellenisation of her barbaroi allies, and our policies of being so open and accepting of metics, and creating almost kind of second class citizen status for them, are also helpful in this vein. But we'd have a long way to go to rival someone like Rome, if it's even possible at all. Honestly it may not be.

One reason I would like to do the League meeting earlier is because Leagues actually represents maybe our best chance to find our own model that could compete with something like this. A united League capable of more effective cooperation and real ties would have a much deeper financial and demographic well to draw on, and give us an authentically Greek route towards our own kind of state-formation.
Oddly, the model I think we're closest to right now is a more open, democratic and less oppressive variant of Sparta, with the League as our Perioikoi, Metics as Trophimoi, Peuketti the Skiritai, and serf helots.
 
Still, would the fact that most people are right handed not make the right side easier and safer?

Actually this is my mistake,

Individual hoplites carried their shields on their left arm, protecting not only themselves but also the soldier to the left. This meant that the men at the extreme right of the phalanx were only half-protected. In battle, opposing phalanxes would exploit this weakness by attempting to overlap the enemy's right flank.[12] It also meant that, in battle, a phalanx would tend to drift to the right (as hoplites sought to remain behind the shield of their neighbour). The most experienced hoplites were often placed on the right side of the phalanx, to counteract these problems. According to Plutarch's Sayings of Spartans, "a man carried a shield for the sake of the whole line".[13]

So the most honorable position is the extreme right. Edited it accordingly.
 
If we really want to maintain a permanent, prestigious unit of men armed with javelins as their primary weapon, personally I think a real route forward might be marines. Not so much for our triremes, which would not be able to carry more than a handful and don't really need them, but as a kind of commerce protection force. Stick a dozen of them on a merchant ship, and pirates are going to look for easier pickings most of the time, because it just isn't worth the losses they'd inflict.

The armament required of a naval fighter - javelins or harpoons for throwing, a helmet and perhaps some kind of chest defence that can be easily pulled off if you go into the water- are ideal for a unit of elite skirmishers. Moreover, naval fighting is very prestigious to us, and we could give them some kind of stipend just by extending the arrangement we use for our rowers.

Then we'd have several hundred lightly-armed men with javelins, who would spend a decent chunk of their time ashore training, with a decent amount of prestige and a somewhat professional military ethos. Boom.

They would probably end up doing more far more for us in terms of military achievement on land than on sea, but honestly, that kind of weird military idiosyncrasy happens all the time. :lol
If nothing else, our rowers are going to have a head start on the degree of endurance elite fast moving skirmishers require.
 
Yeah, I think there a lot of things in favour of it, and we're also facing a piracy problem right now, so... it makes a lot of sense, I think. It would be expensive, but any kind of military advantage is. We could start relatively modestly, maybe a hundred or so guys recruited from amongst the rowers.

I may propose a user motion centered around the idea, perhaps after the next update.
 
If we really want to maintain a permanent, prestigious unit of men armed with javelins as their primary weapon, personally I think a real route forward might be marines. Not so much for our triremes, which would not be able to carry more than a handful and don't really need them, but as a kind of commerce protection force. Stick a dozen of them on a merchant ship, and pirates are going to look for easier pickings most of the time, because it just isn't worth the losses they'd inflict.

Part of a Trireme's crew is its marines, actually. You could have as many as 30 with a captain, a few officers, and then the rowers. Often that's where the Athenian 200 per ship comes from, and it's why I feel comfortable having 150 per ship in Eretria if the ships are shorter and more aimed at manuever and rowing over boarding actions. It's quite useful for raiding islands.
 
Part of a Trireme's crew is its marines, actually. You could have as many as 30 with a captain, a few officers, and then the rowers. Often that's where the Athenian 200 per ship comes from, and it's why I feel comfortable having 150 per ship in Eretria if the ships are shorter and more aimed at manuever and rowing over boarding actions. It's quite useful for raiding islands.

Okay, well then, in that case, perfect!

I was aware you would have some armed men aboard, particularly for the terrifying eventuality where two ships end up locked together rather than one sinking outright after ramming. I was assuming you'd have a handful of armed men up top, plus of course the rowers themselves are all strong men capable of fighting, probably with weapons under their seats.

But in that case, we would be formalising something we already have, which works even better.
 
I have a user motion
I want to encourage Hunters and archery in general amongst our subjects to honour Artemis and Orion

My reason is to ensure greater quality of skirmisher and access to more proteins for our diet and greater quantity and possibly quality of leather goods
 
I have a user motion
I want to encourage Hunters and archery in general amongst our subjects to honour Artemis and Orion

My reason is to ensure greater quality of skirmisher and access to more proteins for our diet and greater quantity and possibly quality of leather goods

The festival option for the tributaries which is winning handily will encourage contests of hunting and archery, though this will mostly be the preserve of the wealthy.
 
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