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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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Cetashwayo said:
This seems like something that would probably require the support of a Deme given it's going to be very expensive. Do you have any idea how many marines you'd like to recruit or the expense of the building?
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We could start small. Using the Ekdromoi as a benchmark cost of 0.077 talents per man, we could start off with 150 marines at roughly 11.5 talents per year, before subtracting any revenue from fees or increased merchantry. A few barracks with bunks might cost another 10-15 talents I think? So 21-26 talents in total?
 
Satar said:
We could start small. Using the Ekdromoi as a benchmark cost of 0.077 talents per man, we could start off with 150 marines at roughly 11.5 talents per year, before subtracting any revenue from fees or increased merchantry. A few barracks with bunks might cost another 10-15 talents I think? So 21-26 talents in total?
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Hmm. Okay, I'll give it some thought and make it a choice next year if the war doesn't occur. If it does, then it'll be an option after the war is completed. Right now I'm hesitant because the city doesn't want to make any changes or alterations before a potential war, but if the danger passes or the war is complete it will be proposed.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Hmm. Okay, I'll give it some thought and make it a choice next year if the war doesn't occur. If it does, then it'll be an option after the war is completed. Right now I'm hesitant because the city doesn't want to make any changes or alterations before a potential war, but if the danger passes or the war is complete it will be proposed.
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Gotcha.

How many marines would a typical merchant ship in risky waters usually want?
 
Satar said:
Gotcha.

How many marines would a typical merchant ship in risky waters usually want?
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Well I mean, maybe like ten at most, assuming these marines can also help function as crew members. The main issue is that although the city could pay marine salaries (though how it would pay them would be a little contentious) the ships will obviously need to provision these marines which is more expensive than just paying them some money.
 
My thought was that we would recruit them directly from our rowers, as rowers are also essentially fighters, and I imagine our current marines are counted amongst their ranks. A hundred or so would be fine, and perhaps a field for them to train. I'm not even so sure a barracks is necessarily essential, but it might be helpful.

Payment could be in the form of just offering them their full rower's stipend year round, as service is expected year-round. Merchants might also be expected to contribute something to having them on board, even if it's just food and wine as @Cetashwayo says.

My thinking was also that in the ballpark of ten or a dozen guards for ships expecting trouble would be plenty. It's not even about "beating" pirates so much as credibly signalling that the cost of the engagement will be enough that an attack is not profitable.
 
Satar said:
[X] USER MOTION: State-Supported Naval Marines
-[X] To better protect commercial shipping, naval marines shall be recruited and a new building constructed
for the purpose of training and garrisoning them. They shall be salaried, and the salaries will be paid for by the city.
-[X] On high-risk routes Eretrian traders, if they so desire, may be lent out a unit of said marines to serve as security
free of charge or cost. Otherwise Eretrian traders may hire said marines as security for a discounted price that will comprise
of the marine's salaries for the duration of the voyage and an additional fee.
-[X] Non-Eretrian merchants and factors may request to hire Eretrian marines for a price comprising of the marine's salaries for the duration
and a sizeable fee depending on the route and the duration.
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I'm guessing the free security also gives us a benefit of not being compared with mercenaries inside and outside the polis? Good idea.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Hmm. Okay, I'll give it some thought and make it a choice next year if the war doesn't occur. If it does, then it'll be an option after the war is completed. Right now I'm hesitant because the city doesn't want to make any changes or alterations before a potential war, but if the danger passes or the war is complete it will be proposed.
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Would utilising rowers as "light marines" with Peuketti style equipment and no body armour be more economically viable?
 
Cetashwayo said:
Would these rowers be fielded on the field of battle? If so, no. If they're meant to be marines when they're not rowers, okay.
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I'm thinking that they'd train with javelin, shield and sword or spear, a dozen of them on each ship representing a decent deterrent to opportunistic pirates, both by themselves and as a stiffener for the rest of the crew.
 
Ironanvil1 said:
I'm thinking that they'd train with javelin, shield and sword or spear, a dozen of them on each ship representing a decent deterrent to opportunistic pirates, both by themselves and as a stiffener for the rest of the crew.
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I think that's fine, but I'd prefer for discussion of this to take place after the very important vote on whether to effectively go to war is decided :V
 
Any kind of military innovation is going to be expensive. Armies drink money. I'm not actually too worried about that right now. We're financially more than robust enough to handle it.

It is basically pointless to have rowers keep their dayjobs and only serve as guards aboard ships in their off days, if our objective is to eventually have an elite unit of skirmishers we can use in the field. Absolutely, we should recruit from the rowers, but it should be a permanently established unit, I think. It's possible we could move in stages, of course, starting with part-time guards, but that means we have to go all through this again later on.
 
Cetashwayo said:
I think that's fine, but I'd prefer for discussion of this to take place after the very important vote on whether to effectively go to war is decided :V
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I already voted for that!

Incidentally, are Taras a competitor in the sea silk trade?
Admiral Skippy said:
Any kind of military innovation is going to be expensive. Armies drink money. I'm not actually too worried about that right now. We're financially more than robust enough to handle it.

It is basically pointless to have rowers keep their dayjobs and only serve as guards aboard ships in their off days, if our objective is to eventually have an elite unit of skirmishers we can use in the field. Absolutely, we should recruit from the rowers, but it should be a permanently established unit, I think. It's possible we could move in stages, of course, but that means we have to go all through this again later on.
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It'd be a lot easier and cheaper to gather up pre-existing rower marines off their ships than train them up from scratch though. Plus they'd be handy on the ships as a more formidable landing/raiding force.
 
Ironanvil1 said:
It'd be a lot easier and cheaper to gather up pre-existing rower marines off their ships than train them up from scratch though. Plus they'd be handy on the ships as a more formidable landing/raiding force.
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Sure, that's what we're discussing. There's unanimity of agreement here about recruiting from the rowers. It makes a lot of sense.

The issue is whether they do their marine gig "part-time" aboard merchant ships, when they're not rowing, or become a full-time thing. If they aren't full-time, we can't use them in the field.

What I'm saying is, despite the expense, it makes far more sense to go for full time, because the whole thing that started this discussion was to try and create a unit of "professional" skirmishers, so it's a bit self-defeating to disallow it. We could try and start it off as a part-time commerce protection gig, then move to full time, but then we have to actually get of our arses and remember to advocate for that, push it through politically etc. etc., which will be a huge fucking hassle.
 
Is it possible to make League with Taras? Basically kindly point out that we have allies on both sides of them so instead of fighting us join with us and the Thurii to continue to hellenize southern italy and deal with the raiders inland.

Also did I read the turn right that Athens beat a Corinth navy this year?
 
Void Stalker said:
Is it possible to make League with Taras? Basically kindly point out that we have allies on both sides of them so instead of fighting us join with us and the Thurii to continue to hellenize southern italy and deal with the raiders inland.
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Well, uh, for one thing, Taras doesn't like you. You didn't pick them as a rival so they don't hate you (though obviously they will if you work with the Messapii), but they dislike you. For another, Thurii and them are rivals. Third of all, while Taras would be okay with partitioning the Messapii, a league requires some external threat to convince them it's worthwhile. In the historical timeline the Italiote League was formed to resist the incursions of the Italic Bruttii who were becoming increasingly threatening, and then became a coalition to oppose the expansion of Syrakousai, which had conquered Eastern Sicily and now wanted to add Italy to the pie.

Void Stalker said:
Also did I read the turn right that Athens beat a Corinth navy this year?
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You read right. It beat them several times.
 
Admiral Skippy said:
Sure, that's what we're discussing. There's unanimity of agreement here about recruiting from the rowers. It makes a lot of sense.

The issue is whether they do their marine gig "part-time" aboard merchant ships, when they're not rowing, or become a full-time thing. If they aren't full-time, we can't use them in the field.

What I'm saying is, despite the expense, it makes far more sense to go for full time, because the whole thing that started this discussion was to try and create a unit of "professional" skirmishers, so it's a bit self-defeating to disallow it. We could try and start it off as a part-time commerce protection gig, then move to full time, but then we have to actually get of our arses and remember to advocate for that, push it through politically etc. etc., which will be a huge fucking hassle.
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Yes, but what I was thinking was a wider pool of rower-marines, with an elite skirmisher unit drawn from that larger group, rather than us just having whatever limited number in the elite unit.
 
Ironanvil1 said:
Yes, but what I was thinking was a wider pool of rower-marines, with an elite skirmisher unit drawn from that larger group, rather than us just having whatever limited number in the elite unit.
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In practice I'm sure they'll recruit and replenish from the rowers, but in game terms, if we want them to appear on the field, we need a specifically demarcated unit who serve full time. That's what @Cetashwayo just told us, as I understand it anyway.
 
We already have what amounts to an elite Marine unit in the Ekrodmoi, who can fight aboard ship as well as land. The city previously voted down the idea of lighter-armed marines proposed by Eusebius on the advice of @100thlurker who held that the long spear was still the effective weapon of Hellenic marines and a lighter panoply would put our marines at a disadvantage. I'm also further concerned that the proliferation of "elite" units will eat into the backbone of the Phalanx and expose us to considerable damage from losing our best men if they are placed in a situation where they can be overwhelmed by numbers without support from the mobilized city.
 
I'm not sure I understand why the ekdromoi cannot function as elite marines, yes.
 
The point isn't really about an elite marine unit per se, @Cavalier. It's to try to develop a full time unit armed with javelins, to function as more professional skirmishers capable of more complex battlefield evolutions than our psiloi. Marines were proposed as a method of getting there, since their panoply would work, and it's a more prestigious position.

Of course you're more than welcome to disagree with that, too, but that was actually the starting premise of the discussion here.
 
Admiral Skippy said:
The point isn't really about an elite marine unit per se, @Cavalier. It's to try to develop a full time unit armed with javelins, to function as more professional skirmishers capable of more complex battlefield evolutions than our psiloi. Marines were proposed as a method of getting their, since their panoply would work, and it's a more prestigious position.

Of course you're more than welcome to disagree with that, too, but that was actually the starting premise of the discussion here.
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Don't get snippy with me, Skippy. The discussion started revolving around Marines and if you want to use Marines as a route to get professional Psiloi that route is hard to justify because the Ekdromoi already fill that role and it's questionable that javelin-armed light infantry would even be effective as marines.
 
Kalrotix said:
Slinger could be very useful too. For a long time they were consider better than archerduring this time.
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I would love to get some quality slingers for many reasons.
One is because their pretty cheap and not hard to make and rocks are not hard to get.
Slings also work better on the ocean cause bowstring get messed up because of ocean air/water.
As well you can easily make a sport/competition of its use either like hitting a target or a gong or knocking over a small stack of wood.

I was also going to bring up the Staff Sling for use during sieges and throwing heavy rocks and fire pots and what have you but apparently has not be invented yet which surprised me.
Anyway slings are cool.


Also a little history lesson that guy in the second video splitting a melon at 25 meters/82 feet away is from the Balearic Islands.
Called the Gymnesian Islands by the Greeks during this time they were considered one of the best if not the best slingers in the world.
Right now their mostly mercenaries for Carthaginian and then in later times the Romans.
 
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I was viewing it as two birds with one stone - we make our shipping more of a hard target for pirates, and cross train our rowers to be able to serve on the battlefield as a disciplined spine for the psiloi if necessary, not cutting in to the hoplite numbers.
A merchant marine, and a marine core, as it were. ;)
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on May 24, 2019 at 9:26 PM, finished with 209 posts and 54 votes.
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