"To seek hegenomy in Italy is to make a contest with Taras inevitable, sooner or later. And in the long run we must seek hegemony for our own safety's sake, for even if we do not see ourselves as hegemon, others will look to our wealth, and our lands, and our allies and see us as a danger. We cannot simply sit at our corner of the Adriatic forever and grow wealthier and stronger without consequence. That way lies simple folly.

If we must contest Taras, then I would prefer the contest to be now. Yes, it will drag us onto the periphery of Athenai's war against the sons of Lakedaemon, but in the long run this is inevitable. Korynthos jealously covets our trade, and we sell Athenai grain and take their silver in recompense. We cannot hope to remain neutral forever, except at a very steep cost indeed. A contest with Taras now is a contest where we have allies, and I do not fear Sparta overmuch when they are separated from us by two seas and the Athenian navy.

With the Mesapii and our other allies at our backs, we can beat Taras in the field. Of course there are risks, as in all great undertakings, but they are manageable, and we have the crucial advantages. With our navy and Thurii's too, we can guard our coasts and neutralise Korynthos, who must also consider the Athenians in everything they do. Thurii's armies are also well placed even if they remain at home, for they will give Metapontion much pause for thought about any intervention.

We need not seek to destroy Taras, merely humble them with a victory. After that, we could even show magnanimity in victory, perhaps giving them a Mesapii city in the treaty, whilst we take the rest under our protection. The important thing is that the other Greek cities of Italy see us as a judicious and strong protector. With this one victory we may buy a much longer period of calm, where we can strengthen our alliances with our barbaroi friends, subdue the Dauni, and build a larger and stronger League."
Regarding this, being one of Athenai's innumerable sources of grain seems a poor reason for the Spartans to add us to their long list of enemies, especially compared to attacking their child city. Furthermore, if you think we need to eliminate a threat NOW, then surely the Dauni, who we are already preparing to fight via the xenoparakletor mission, would suffice while having less potential to entangle us in this massive conflict.
 
Don't get snippy with me, Skippy. The discussion started revolving around Marines and if you want to use Marines as a route to get professional Psiloi that route is hard to justify because the Ekdromoi already fill that role and it's questionable that javelin-armed light infantry would even be effective as marines.

The point about the effectiveness of javelin-armed infantry as marines versus long spears was one I was unaware of given I didn't participate in every part of the last two threads. If lurker wants to make an appearance here, then he can explain it, but many things are different in this game than the last one. I'm not sure that's a point we should get overly hung up about.

Hiring out the Ekdromoi in groups of twelve for commerce protection seems a tad unwise to me given how valuable they are. I doubt it is something we will be doing any time soon. Recruiting a unit from amongst our rowers seems a bit more plausible.

It would actually be entirely plausible for them to carry a longer spear and one or two javelins, if this is a real concern. That would hardly be ahistorical.
 
Don't get snippy with me, Skippy. The discussion started revolving around Marines and if you want to use Marines as a route to get professional Psiloi that route is hard to justify because the Ekdromoi already fill that role and it's questionable that javelin-armed light infantry would even be effective as marines.
They'd be different roles really. Ekdromoi are hard to beat as skilled shipboard melee fighters, for military boarding actions and similar.
The armed rowers would be more about making sure any pirate trying to take one of our ships can be sure they'll lose a good chunk of men to hard-thrown javelins on the way in, and have a fight even once they close.
 
Okay, after some thought I'd like to put my foot down.

If people want professional marines, they have the ekdromoi which can be freely deployed during naval engagements as an excellent away force that is able to fund itself abroad thanks to its position as a professional unit. If people want professional skirmishers then they're going to have to wait until some time later, with closer cooperation with the Peuketii, because if the city receives better skirmishers it will at first be through its allies, as it already does. If the city wants to hire some foreign peltasts from Thrace or Krete in a war, it can do that. If the city wants marines to protect its commercial shipping, there could be options in the future to subsidize merchant protection, though this is a rather inefficient way of protecting trade compared to destroying pirates altogether, and marines that are tied to their fleet are already on a higher level of income than rowers, giving them less reason to work as hired muscle on merchant ships.

I will not entertain anymore suggestions or discussion on this front until I feel it's appropriate. I would like discussion to return to debate about the alliance of the Messapii as well as any other concerns people have about the direction of the vote, suggestions they want to put forward, or votes they want to make. I feel this discussion is choking out the actually important argument that should be had about the city going to war, and given I won't be allowing these changes this year anyway, it should wait until later.
 
The choice is one of long term strategy, as I see it. Do we want to try and cement ourselves as the most powerful force in the heel of Italia by taking Taras down a peg, or do we seek to work out an accommodation with them, despite our rocky history?

Personally, I view Taras as being too close to us in both power and distance for us to coexist over the longer term, so we might as well seek to dominate now, using the opportunity the Messapii present, before the wider conflict in Hellas starts impinging on us.
 
[X] [Insurance] Allow the Shrine of Ploutos to handle merchant insurance with state support [-20 talent one-time fee to Shrine of Ploutos].
[X] [Tribute] Levies. More Peuketii allies in the cavalry and light infantry will serve to augment's the city's armies [+2.5% levy from the Peuketii, +654 Levies].
[X] [Collection] Dispatch inspectors to them. Better for our agents to be among them in order to catch any sign of suspicion or plotting than to hope the barbaroi will always keep us in good stead [-2 public subsidy upkeep per year].
[X] [League] We have already conceded much to the Metics. The league can afford to wait a few years [Special League policies in 349 OL election platforms].
[X] [Alliance] Better to conclude secret treaties with some cities without raising the specter of war with Taras.
[X] [King] Better to keep the Confederacy weak and potentially reliant on Eretrian direction.
 
Kyrillos is uncharacteristically subdued.

"Praise to the wisdom of the ekklesia, and the glory of the gods; through these is our city once again put right."

"As the Hill of the Divine Marriage rises above our poleis, I find my thoughts turn to the parable of Prometheus Desmotes. Prometheus was bound because he taught humanity to trick the gods -- that no nourishment was to be found beneath the pile of snow-white fat; true sustenance was concealed beneath organs and offal."

"Why, then, do we glorify the gods with gleaming temples, when humanity's true nourishment is to be found in mathema -- study?"

"I propose, that as we renovate our temples, let us glorify the gods through the Muses. Let us go forth, and adorn a Promethion or a Musaeion not with gold nor jewels, but with a copy of every scroll written in the world; let Eretria astound the heavens themselves with the beauty of our truths, and the elegance of their expression."


OOC: @Cetashwayo, more user motions to play with --

[X] USER MOTION: Promethion (Musaeum?)
- [X] Glorify the Gods through patronage of the arts.
- [X] Build a temple to the Muses, where copies of scrolls, plays, poetry, and music may be stored.
- [X] Invite philosophers, artists, playwrights and scholars to Eretria -- provide those fleeing conflict on the Peloponnese a safe haven in our city, alongside the many other exiles who have found a home here.
 
[X] USER MOTION: Promethion (Musaeum?)
- [X] Glorify the Gods through patronage of the arts.
- [X] Build a temple to the Muses, where copies of scrolls, plays, poetry, and music may be stored.
- [X] Invite philosophers, artists, playwrights and scholars to Eretria -- provide those fleeing conflict on the Peloponnese a safe haven in our city, alongside the many other exiles who have found a home here.

You already subsidize playwrights and artists.

There may be options to build additional temples next turn depending on your choices right now. Even the Grand Mantis will calm down on temple suggestions if there's a war with Taras.

That last one is effectively a more focused version of the talent focus for immigration, which contradicts the vote just made to pursue loyalty-based immigration. It's also difficult for cities that don't lavish patronage on intellectuals to actively attract them if they're not already attractive as destinations to live in.
 
So I'm curious given our universal male franchise (metics notwithstanding) the state of our Psiloi compared to other Greek city states since as far as I understand it's a very broad catch all term covering anything from archers to literal rock throwers.

Given the physicality of all our citizens...
Well, the physicality of all our prominent citizens.

Eretria is a lithocracy. To be allowed to speak in the Assembly, you have to haul a big-ass rock to the Assembly and stand on it. Men who don't have ambitions of public speaking, don't need that particular element of physical training.

It seems we are going to openly oppose Taras by threatening war. A regretable decision if you ask me, especially since our initial choices (Adriatic trade network & Syracuse as Rival) seemed to be directed away from Taras.
We also chose Thurii and the Sikeliote League as our allies, didn't we? That's a choice more directly aimed at counterbalancing Taras (or Syracuse, either way), because it's a local ally rather than a remote one.

Metapontion would not want Thurii to push it into a war, so for Thurii to reinforce you in the east it would require them going through Lucanian territory or negotiating something with Metapontion which is not your current xenoparakletor's strong suit.
Could we transport Thurii soldiers in our ships? While I imagine Taras has a navy, could we anticipate naval superiority in a war? I'd think so given that we had naval investment as a domestic policy priority during the timeskip.
 
We and Thurii between us probably have the "sealift" to move some number of hundreds that you could count on one hand, although it would be kind of an unconventional move. Still, worth considering.

In general I think Thurii's forces can probably do a lot of good just staying at home, dissuading Metapontion from any ideas about intervention.
 
Could we transport Thurii soldiers in our ships? While I imagine Taras has a navy, could we anticipate naval superiority in a war? I'd think so given that we had naval investment as a domestic policy priority during the timeskip.

You'd have naval supremacy, but Thurii would prefer to besiege Herakleia Lukania.
 
We and Thurii between us probably have the "sealift" to move some number of hundreds that you could count on one hand, although it would be kind of an unconventional move. Still, worth considering.

In general I think Thurii's forces can probably do a lot of good just staying at home, dissuading Metapontion from any ideas about intervention.
What are the odds that the Metapontines would intervene on Taras' side? My understanding is that the Metapontines were hostile to Taras and unhappy about being encircled by the new Tarentine colony down the coast from them..
 
"While a war with Taras may (indeed, likely will) come some day, perhaps even some day soon, I would rather it not come tomorrow. Not when the Illyrians so clearly desire us to return to their shores and provide a repeat lesson as to the price of piracy against Eretria. Not when Dauni hostility stands between us and both a secure road linking the Epulian League together and possibly the highest quality salt deposit in the Hellenic world. And not when the other great cities of Italia, Metapontion chief among them, have not made it clear if they would support ourselves, Taras, or a mutual defeat that leaves no one poleis in a position to dominate the rest of the Italiotes.

To say nothing of the ambitions of Syracuse and the threat they pose to our allies on Sikelia, or the Korinthian aggression across the Adriatiki and its consequences for the trade that is the lifeboat of our city.

No, while the proper time for a reckoning with Taras will come, it is not yet here. Wait for them to bleed themselves against the Messapii and Brutii, to once again war with fellow Italiotes, to be called by their Lakonian motherland into the great war to our east. Only then, when their strength reaches its nadir, can they be brought to bay without undue risk of maiming Eretria in their death throes.

Thus speaks Methodios, son of Pelagios."
 
War among Ancient Greeks

I think that this is a good time to address how war worked among the Ancient Greeks, really worked, and the difficulties of fighting as a polis. It will better inform both the decision to go to war or not here, and military options in the future, as a polis. It can also serve as an educational primer on why things are the way they are, and why reforms or innovation are difficult. What I do not want to do is constantly be telling people no in a way that is not satisfactory. I would want my answers as to why something is not possible to be as comprehensible as why something is possible.

The first principle of Hellene Warfare in the classical period is that war is the province of male society. Male society is centered around the achievement of glory, wealth, and recognition, and all three are delivered in spades by war. Since war is the province of male society, in order to change how warfare is conducted, the society must be changed. The levies which Eretria Eskhata draws on are not from professional cavalry or professional infantry, but from smallholding farmers and large estate-owners. In a time where providing equipment to citizen-soldiers is very expensive when you already have to supply them and pay them campaign salaries (with campaign salaries being a recent innovation), the citizen-soldier provides their own equipment, their own horses. This also means that training for wartime is reflected through festivals; the Spartans were renowned as dancers in Hellas, but that is not just because they like dancing. The coordination required for dancing to a tune is also the coordination required for marching to a tune. Once again, the society and the military are one, and so the society provides the basis of battlefield training. This is why steppe nomads are horse archers; the skills they use for horse archery are used every single day.

The second principle of Hellene Warfare is that cities are small. Many poleis have a few hundred citizens or less. There are only a few dozen poleis which have enough people to gain real power in the Mediterranean, and maintaining this manpower is essential for their success. If warfare is the province of male society, then loss in warfare is a loss to the entire society. In 494 BCE Sparta defeated Argos. Why was this defeat permanent, ending Argos' ability to contest Sparta for the Peloponnese? It was permanent because Argos lost 6,000 men. 6,000 members of its citizenry, 6,000 fathers, 6,000 sons and husbands and workers and tax-payers. The depth of this catastrophe preventing Argos from challenging Sparta again until 421 BCE, when it built a coalition with Athenai and other Peloponnesian states to overthrow Spartiate hegemony. What this means is that cities cannot absorb losses for very long. Wars either drag out without much happening for long periods of time, or are ended in massive battles that destroy the lives of an entire generation on one side or the other. From this we are better able to understand Rome's success; here too was a citizen militia, but a citizen militia that by the time of the punic wars could call on an effective manpower of 750,000 Romans and Allies. This was so far beyond the scope of any other Mediterranean power that Rome's success can become obvious in hindsight, but even this massive reserve has limits, and the Second Punic War wreaked havoc on Roman society by killing so many men.

The third principle of Hellene Warfare is that it is bloody. We have been told by some historians that battles had casualty rates of anywhere between 5-10% for the victor and 10-20% for the loser. That does not seem like much to us at first. But once we begin to think about what that adds up to over time, we begin to realize the real weight of battle. Those are 5-10% of your men you will never get back. Those men could have been merchants, fathers, statesmen, heroes, speakers, but they are dead. And if you are the loser, casualty rates can go even higher, especially if you do not have a cavalry or infantry screen to protect you. Contrary to some arguments, the Hellenes took great pleasure in slaughtering the enemy when they began to flee. Xenophon called it one of the greatest pleasures of battle. The Polis is therefore perilously fragile; a single battle, if it is spectacularly unlucky, can undo decades of work. War is a high-stakes battle where states put their entire society on the line. Do not expect to leave even victorious battles unscathed.

All of this amounts to the final principle of Hellene Warfare, which is to protect your own citizens and slaughter those of the enemy. This is not the same thing as winning a battle; the main goal of the main portion of the battle, the push and pull of the phalanx, is to achieve that decisive break. Once the enemy is broken, the slaughter begins, and this is where there is a massive free-for-all in which men have their throats cut begging for mercy or are led into traps and cut down until the ground is sticky with blood. The goal of warfare is not just to achieve some strategic goal, or to win territory, but to make it so that the enemy cannot threaten you or your people ever again. If that means ensuring that you have created a desert called peace, so be it. It also means that innovation in warfare is discouraged in good reason; a bad innovation, or a foolish trick, can cost you everything.

The inclusion of sacred or elite units somewhat changes this calculus, but also creates new risks. The hieros ekdromoi and Kleos Exoria are capable of manuevers, formations, and feats that other units are not, but they are also priceless. You cannot continually replace the best of your men; eventually you will run out of best men, and the city's elite units will become a shadow of their former selves. In a crisis or a total rout, furthermore, the enemy may particularly target your elite units, with the intention of breaking the spirit of your entire city. At the battle of Chaeronea Alexander attacked the Sacred Band of Thebai, the heroic and famed elite unit of the Thebans, and slaughtered them down to a man. If the city were to replace the Kleos Exoria and hieros ekdromoi with new men, the institutions might remain, but it will take years to get them back to the same level of ability as they once had.

What this Means for Game Mechanics

All of this is to say that in the past, Eretria has faced relatively easy odds. Even when it has not triumphed, there has been little mechanical impact beyond political chaos or humiliation. Now, things are far different. You can expect that a single victory in battle against the enemy could secure you hegemony. You can also expect, however, that losses will hit hard. Eretria has one of the largest reserves of freemen in the Greek World, but even it is not limitless in its capacity, and throwing away the lives of both your own citizens and those of your allies will eventually empty your city and leave it recovering for a generation. When confronting enemies of near-equal strength, or greater strength, it must always be approached with a sense of caution and awareness that there will be few second chances. Every war, every battle, has the potential for catastrophe. It is strategy that prevents you from getting into a situation where you face a rout, and tactics that can rescue you from a bad numerical or geographical position.

With that in mind, warfare will work like so. First, players will select from a number of strategoi. All of these men have been serving with the city's council of generals for years, and can be trusted to be experienced in theory, though the years of peace means there are few among them who are true veterans. The strategoi will have their character statistics displayed, as well as their general plans to the assembly on how they seek to win a war. The assembly will elect that strategos that they feel has the best plan and the ability to enact it. The lead strategos will then be in charge of composing armies, leading them, and appointing from the other strategoi naval fleets or secondary armies. They will have overall command of the strategic vision of the city until such time that they are victorious, killed in battle, or recalled by the city due to some failure.

Battle will be composed of four phases, whose success is defined by rolls and modifiers. Modifiers will be extremely powerful, representing that although there is an element of chance in all battles, there are also fundamental realities of numbers or ability that moderate the randomness of fortune. There is the strategic phase. In this phase, armies will attempt to find a position advantageous to them and disadvantageous to the enemy. Light infantry, including both psilloi and allied skirmishers, as well as cavalry, are essential for this phase. Having superior cavalry and skirmishers in both numbers and skill will significantly improve the chance that you do well in this phase, placing you in a better position at the battle's start. Generals with some experience with skirmishing or the cavalry will help. Having a good position will give you permanent modifiers for the rest of the battle. There is one roll here with dependent modifiers.

Next is the skirmishing phase. In this phase, both armies' skirmishers and cavalry will attempt to drive the others from the field. Once again, this is where cavalry and skirmishers are king. Herodion the One-Eye was always best-known as a cavalry commander than as a leader of infantry, and his ability to win success in this phase was always unparalleled. The advantage of winning in this phase are three-fold. First, cavalry and skirmishers that are successful in this phase could flank the enemy, devastating their morale and cohesion. Second, if you win the battle, your cavalry and skirmishers have stripped away theirs and are able to slaughter their infantry with impunity, leading to massive casualties for the enemy forces that they might not recover from. Finally, if you lose the battle, your cavalry and skirmishers can screen and protect your infantry and reduce the number of casualties you take, allowing you to live to fight another day. There is one roll here with dependent modifiers.

Next is the collision phase. The main determinants of this phase are the quality, formation, and numbers of infantry on both sides. The majority of your citizens on the field of battle will be participating in this phase, colliding with the enemy in a phalanx pushing match that could determine the course of the battle. This phase ends when one side or the other routs, breaking; it is during a rout that most of the casualties occur, as men are stabbed in the back or as they try to strip off their armor and flee. In a hoplite battle, the best fighters are concentrated on the right flank, with the very edge of the right flank as the most honorable position due to its exposure. Maintaining cohesion on both flanks is important, and so there will be two rolls, one for the left flank and one for the right, with the right more likely to be broken and the left more likely to break through against the enemy. Then there will be a final roll, modified by the state of the two flanks, to determine whether you are successful in the collision phase.

Finally, there is the rout phase. This is the phase in which the true consequences of a battle will be played out, because once the enemy is broken your forces will begin to chase after them, and vice versa. If you are winning, your goal here is to leverage all of your success from prior phases (a good position, victory in skirmishing, victory in collision) in order to inflict as much slaughter and damage on the enemy as possible to ensure that this battle will be their last, and force them to make a crushing peace. If you are losing, your goal is to leverage any success in prior phases in order to protect and rescue as many of your citizens as possible from the impending slaughter. Doing so successfully here can be the difference between fighting another day and a humiliating peace. There is one roll here, dependent on modifiers from previous phases.

As you can tell, modifiers will begin to stack throughout a battle; winning each phase will make success in the next phase easier, until finally in the rout phase the only determinant is just how badly you inflict damage on the enemy. In the same way, losing each phase in succession will make things worse and worse and finally lead to a loss you cannot recover from. However, unless you are fighting truly powerful or impossible enemies, the reality is likely to fall somewhere in the middle, and Eretria Eskhata starts with several advantages over its neighbors, such as its loyal barbarian allies and its elite units which few in Italy or Sicily have yet emulated. But in the end it is Fortune and Victory who decide the outcome of war, and whether the city will see a triumphant return of its men or no return at all.

Examples of Modifiers

I won't spell out every single modifier involved in a battle, because although it isn't that complicated I don't want to show all of my cards and make people think too mechanically about battles. That being said, there are a few modifiers which are fairly obvious, and are dependent on a comparison to the enemy:
  • Numerical difference between components of both armies (How many more skirmishers do you have than them? How many more infantry?)
  • Difference in quality between components of both armies (Is your cavalry better than theirs? Are you facing Spartan Hoplites who are generally known to be of a better quality due to their lifestyle?)
  • Skill of the General in specific aspects of battle (Is this a courageous general who is willing to rally his men? Is he a cavalryman? How knowledgeable is he about terrain? Has he tried some crazy tactic?)
  • Morale of the armies (Is this an army of mercenaries who have been swayed by the enemy to turn sides? Is there a specific humiliation or patriotic sentiment propelling one side to fight more desperately than the other? Is there significant civil strife which makes citizens less willing to shed blood for their city?)
  • Phase modifiers (Did one army achieve a better position than the other? Did they win the skirmishing phase? Have one of their two flanks broken?)
Odds and Ends

Naval battles have similar rules but only three phases: Strategic phase, collision, and rout, with the strategic phase and collision being the most important. It is much easier for enemy fleets to withdraw from battle, so most casualties are concentrated during collision and the subsequent washing up of sailors on shore, and the strategic phase is far more important. Skill and quality of your fleets, as well as positioning, also matters far more than numbers in a naval battle.

The overall goal of this system is to still have the visceral and terrifying feeling that battles often had when the game first started without involving citizens in every aspect of the battle. There is a great deal of fear involved, because you are ultimately trusting an NPC to conduct your battle for you, but at the same time this is also where all the advantages, good (and bad) choices, and efforts of the players finally come to fruition through the modifiers. It makes for a terrifying ride, but it can also be a more satisfying one than the choice I had made after I realized battles were too much effort to do with maps and voted-upon-phases, when battles were merely described with some off-screen rolls. Here, players will be able to see the step-by-step of the battle unfolding (though doing visuals would be too crazy) and follow the army as it fights towards victory or defeat.

There will usually be only a single battle in a year, merely because that is what most poleis can endure at this stage, and sometimes a single land or naval battle can win the entire war.

In the end, all of this may be summed up as:

Have fun and try not to die!

I see.

So a Jack the Ripper analogue serial killer would do disproportionate damage if he/she targets citizens who can take arms and wasn't caught for years if not decades huh?

Also...how much if Generalplan Ost and the Final Solution would Ancient Greeks be supportive of?
 
So a Jack the Ripper analogue serial killer would do disproportionate damage if he/she targets citizens who can take arms and wasn't caught for years if not decades huh?

Jack the Ripper was only able to what he did in a metropolis of millions of people where there is the existence of anonymity. In a city like Eretria almost everyone knows each other.

Also...how much if Generalplan Ost and the Final Solution would Ancient Greeks be supportive of?

I think the scale of the situation is something unimaginable to Greeks, and a context so disconnected from their own it's difficult to answer this without asking you not to ask me this again :V
 
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I see.
So a Jack the Ripper analogue serial killer would do disproportionate damage if he/she targets citizens who can take arms and wasn't caught for years if not decades huh?
Also...how much if Generalplan Ost and the Final Solution would Ancient Greeks be supportive of?

Jeez dude, can we just not go there?
 
[X] [Insurance] Set large limitations on state insurance and have merchants pay a fee for insurance. [-2 public upkeep per turn].
[X] [Tribute] Levies. More Peuketii allies in the cavalry and light infantry will serve to augment's the city's armies [+2.5% levy from the Peuketii, +654 Levies].
[X] [Collection] Have them come to us. We can maintain a bond of trust with the tributaries without impinging in their private affairs and expand the festival of tribute to build fraternal feeling. [-2 public subsidy upkeep per year].
[X] [League] Let us listen to the concerns of our Hellene allies [League Synedrion will be called next year].
[X] [Alliance] Better to conclude secret treaties with some cities without raising the specter of war with Taras.
[X] [King] Promote King Artahias as a strong leader for the Confederacy to lead it against Taras and keep the peace with Eretria [-15 talent fee].

"Fellow citizens, the most important question we are asked is whether or not to seek war with Taras. As we must not delude ourselves. We would take an alliance between another polis and the Dauni as a provocation. The Tarantines will react the same way should we openly ally with the Messapii. They must either challenge us or cede their prominence, and their honor, to our city. I do not believe it likely they have become cowards. And if it is to be war, then we must be prepared as well as we can so as not to leave too much to the whims of Ares.

And we are not prepared. We know our own League is disgruntled with us. Will they vote for war with Taras, and send their men to fight and die on our behalf? We cannot say without question that the answer is yes. We must hear out their grievances and address whatever claims of theirs are just first. Then perhaps we count on them once more. But we have not done so.

And then there is the threat posed by the Dauni. We do not know their strengths and weaknesses. We do not know if they have been conniving with jealous Corinth against us. If we turn south, and take away the best hoplites among our League cities, will they not raid and burn the farms of our allies? To turn our arms to fearful struggle against Taras is to invite the wild Dauni to raze the orchards and groves of our Epulian League and to drag off our Peuketti subjects. Perhaps we could intimidate them or destroy their unity. But we have not done so.

Do we know the disposition of Metapontion and the other Italiote cities in the regions near Taras? We have shed our alliance with Metapontion against the Syracusans. They do not look to us for strength and leadership any more. And they have no particular quarrel with Taras save the struggle against Tarantine hegemony. But that is a struggle against being subjected, and they might fear Eretrian hegemony as much as that of Taras. We could perhaps bring them to recognize our common interests again. But we have not done so.

Above all, we must honor the gods to seek their blessings and avert the wrath of the all-mighty Zeus. We have begun to give the gods their due with the reconstruction of the temples. Once they are completed we might seek their favor with sacrifices on altars in halls befitting of their authority. But we have not yet done so.

Thus I feel it is not right to seek war with Taras at this time. We have no immediate need and much we could do instead that would redound to our credit in a later struggle. I also fear the struggle between Sparta and Athens reaching the shores of fair Italia, and this war with Taras may yet bring it to us in its full force and fury."
 
Timanthes, son of Thymotes, stands again upon his rock to speak to the ekklesia.

"For man to chase glory upon the battlefield is most foolish, when he has yet to glorify the gods. Have the augurs not said that mighty Zeus is displeased at the state of Eretria's temples? Have we not been warned of ill fortune if this wrong is not amended? To go to war against Taras at this point is to invite the gods to strike us down for our hubris in presuming we can win without the aid of the gods!"
 
I think the scale of the situation is something unimaginable to Greeks, and a context so disconnected from their own it's difficult to answer this without asking you not to ask me this again :V

Eh sure. I was just wondering because of the line about making sure they (enemy) can never threaten their polis again. Generalplan Ost and the Final Solution suddenly sounded like Ancient Greek sentiments enlarged into the scale of the modern world.
 
"There is much in what Phokion says that is of merit. We could be more prepared than we are now. Whenever we choose to go to war, we might always wish to delay, so we were better prepared in future. There are many things we might wish to have, including a winged Pegasus to carry us to victory. The risks we face are real.

The virtue of fighting now is that we can choose the moment of decision, and Taras will not have made designs against us, either. To pretend that the war between Athens and Sparta will not reach our shores eventually also seems foolish to me. It will come whether invited or not. We can choose to meet it head on, or wait until it happens of its own accord. Both ways lie perils.

Perhaps we will be lucky, and manage to fully subborn the Dauni, defeat Korynthos at sea, and ally with Metapontion, whilst the Tarantines wait placidly for us to turn to them. If so, then that would inarguably be much to our advantage. But I also am not so sure that they have become cowards. It will not be difficult for them to see our eventual designs, and enlist whatever aid they can.

If the Tarantines attack whilst we are half-finished dealing with the Dauni, a threat that has been discussed seriously in this Assembly and should not be forgotten, then we may regret having waited. In the long run I fear Taras more.

If we defeat them, we make it clear that we are the strongest city of the Greeks within Italia, and that will make every one of our dealings going forward that much easier.

Both courses of action before us have dangers, and promise rewards. We must choose one."
 
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