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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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Yeah, this won't be fun and I really hope we manage to avoid to many losses. I am especially sceptical when it comes to besieging Taras since not only do we lack the proper experience in that but it also risk depleting our forces through simple attrition considering how they are magnets for disease. My preferred strategy would have been a field battle followed by peace negoations that mostly leave Taras intact but it seems like total war it will be for the foreseeable future.

With that in mind I really think we need to take the Dauni option since while the Greek city going against us wpuld be bothersome I feel it would be less disastrous than Dauni raiders devastating our hinterlands. Plus while they will block our allies from reaching us that should also mean that Thurii is perfectly situated to pressure them and force them to be cautious with their forces or risk leaving their city undefended.

Strategy wise I am a bit torn, the field battle one is attractive and we should hopefully have the advantage their and a quick victory could certainly make things much easier (plus depending on who dies might change the political calculus) but it is still risky and I am really no fan of getting all the other italian people fearing us. The raiding one seems less risky but I doubt that the other factions will simply let us do as we please forever and we could be forced into a peace without a clear winner and loser which while not the worst is still from optimal. Still, it is the option I am leaning towards, after all those ships have to be useful for something.

Speaking of ships, @Cetashwayo would it be possible to hire those "pirates" and other tribes on the Adriatic coast to harrass the Tarantines? And/or could we also hire some of the tribesmen there as mercenaries to supplement our forces?
 
Erandil said:
Speaking of ships, @Cetashwayo would it be possible to hire those "pirates" and other tribes on the Adriatic coast to harrass the Tarantines? And/or could we also hire some of the tribesmen there as mercenaries to supplement our forces?
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The city does not want to hire any mercenaries at this moment due to a general distrust and distaste of mercenary forces, so that option will not be available until a military loss or setback causes it to change its tune. As for pirates, it's unnecessary to hire them given Eretria will already be able to achieve naval supremacy without much difficulty; both plans call for it, after all.
 
No7sHere said:
I actually like the proposals made by our league members, most of them just seem like a good idea. Even the last one might actually be a good idea because it makes our league more attractive to other cities.
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This is a good point to consider if we wish to expand the league making it more friendly for newcomers would be a good idea.

And ugh having to chose between the Dauni and the Greeks. I am inclined to do the Dauni as gaining a secure border with a chance to pivot north after Tara's and gain the salt pans as a resource is a big deal and potential major gain to our funds as well as securing our north so that we can deal with Syracuse.

I also view serpents as a better choice takes more advantage of our naval strength compared to Taras.
 
I'm not convinced we have the advantage in a field battle, we have less hoplites and ours aren't any better than theirs.
 
Right now I'm leaning towards the Drakonid style of war, as it plays to all our advantages. However, it would require us electing a Strategos with the least military experience, Wisdom and Courage, which makes me wary, on a counter to that it lets us keep troops at home so we can feasibly hold off the Dauni, which would be great, as it would allow us to go to Metapontion and possibly get Thurrian support through.
 
No7sHere said:
I'm not convinced we have the advantage in a field battle, we have less hoplites and ours aren't any better than theirs.
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The city's main advantage in a field battle are the hieros ekdromoi. Leveraged properly they can crush a force opposing them. Leveraged improperly they could be crippled or weakened, and then the city will almost certainly rout.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Yes, the lead strategos takes charge and the two not chosen become their deputies, either assigned to subordinate roles or dispatched to lead a fleet.
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Can we hire mercenary hoplites or only mercenary cav and skirmishers? If we can hire merc hoplites, how many? How much would they cost each season?
 
Fair enough, but given the extremely hard to replace nature of our manpower and the fact that a single serious loss could set us back decades I'm hesitant to risk a field battle where we don't have a serious advantage unless we have no other choice.
 
Satar said:
Can we hire mercenary hoplites or only mercenary cav and skirmishers? If we can hire merc hoplites, how many? How much would they cost each season?
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As I said above, the city is opposed to hiring any mercenaries as it distrusts them. Mercenary hoplites would be particularly outrageous and an embarrassment to the city's honor.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Like her husband had wanted her to be, she was a playwright now, and the city were her actors, her son her shining star. The Eretrians had played their part perfectly, too, vanquishing those counseling peace in an instant, sending Myron's star straight towards the sky. No one could deny their ill intentions after they had agreed to encircle Taras with their new Messapii pups. And now, now, with all the actors in their positions, the play was about to begin.

The time had come to slay the monster wearing the hero's mask.​
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This, fellow citizens, is why Eretria has been wise to keep its theatre resolutely mediocre!
 
So, let's summarize, shall we?

We picked Syracuse as our enemy, then immediately charge into a war against Taras, thus ensuring that we have both as enemies. We went off to war at the same time as our League was agitating for concessions, thus providing them ample leverage over us. We've gone off to war with Taras without dealing with the Dauni first. We've gone to war over a defensive alliance with the Messapi, who have fallen into infighting because we specifically chose not to help stabilize them. Our Thurii allies are irrelevant, because they're not positioned to do anything in this conflict.

Frankly, I'd almost say that we'd deserve to lose the war, after this level of underwhelming grand-strategy.
 
Cetashwayo said:
As I said above, the city is opposed to hiring any mercenaries as it distrusts them. Mercenary hoplites would be particularly outrageous and an embarrassment to the city's honor.
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Do elephants count as mercenaries?

Godwinson said:
So, let's summarize, shall we?

We picked Syracuse as our enemy, then immediately charge into a war against Taras, thus ensuring that we have both as enemies. We went off to war at the same time as our League was agitating for concessions, thus providing them ample leverage over us. We've gone off to war with Taras without dealing with the Dauni first. We've gone to war over a defensive alliance with the Messapi, who have fallen into infighting because we specifically chose not to help stabilize them. Our Thurii allies are irrelevant, because they're not positioned to do anything in this conflict.

Frankly, I'd almost say that we'd deserve to lose the war, after this level of underwhelming grand-strategy.
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This is my take on it too.

A premature, hasty, and reckless exercise in hubris. I voted for delaying this war because I was thinking that we could at least subdue the Dauni, deal with the pirate menace, and woo over Metapointoin, but no, we had to leeroy jenkins the situation.
 
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In that case
[X] Greater Iron Storm
-[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
-[X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Storm of Iron)
Glory 4, Lawfulness 1, Friendliness 7, Courage 5, Magnificence 4, Wisdom 4

In this plan, I propose that we send our Xenoparakletor to Metapontion. Not only would it remove a potential ally from Taras, but possibly allow us more forces by letting Thuriian Infantry through.

I believe that the land decision was long in coming anyway. It gives us more much needed Hoplites while also reducing some of the tension that the Demos Exoria had noted was rising in our city.

Accepting the proposal, while having unfortunate implication of giving them power over Eretria, is merely voicing them rather than creating them. If the supermajority of the league disagrees with us, it is better to hear those criticisms openly rather than having them schemimg behind our back.

I support the Storm of Iron plan. We cannot battle merely for the inexperience of our troops or they will never gain the experience to counteract that problem. The rest of my plan creates brings more Hoplites for our side, by raising more from our own numbers, removing an ally from Taras and allowing our Thuriian allies to assist us.

And finally I propose Xanthos as Strategos. Cet has stated that a big advantage of our city is our Hieros Eckdromos and who better to lead them than one of their numbers? This also allows the other two choices to lead in their respective specialties, Theron Zosimos can lead our cavalry and skirmishers(Also, from past battles Herodion consistently kept getting isolated from the rest of the army, so a minus as Strategoi), and Epiktetos Linos can lead our navy.
 
Cetashwayo said:
You definitely don't have access to elephants. No one's using elephants until the Hellenistic period besides the Persians who deploy them at Gaugamela. The Carthaginian use of elephants postdates the deployment of them by the Diadokhi.
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Ah, I was thinking the Cathaginians might have some. Thanks for the clarification!

Sivantic said:
In that case
[X] Greater Iron Storm
-[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
-[X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Storm of Iron)
Glory 4, Lawfulness 1, Friendliness 7, Courage 5, Magnificence 4, Wisdom 4.
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And what will we do if the Dauni attack? Gawk? It's too risky to bet that as wily a man as the Dauni King will not see the gaping hole in our defences.
 
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Cetashwayo said:
The city does not want to hire any mercenaries at this moment due to a general distrust and distaste of mercenary forces, so that option will not be available until a military loss or setback causes it to change its tune. As for pirates, it's unnecessary to hire them given Eretria will already be able to achieve naval supremacy without much difficulty; both plans call for it, after all.
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There is some irony in us unlocking mercenaries due to exactly the kind of situation I want to hire them to avoid in the first place ;) .

And the pirate thing was less needing them and more avoiding possible losses while also keeping the pirates busy and away from our ships/trade.
 
Erandil said:
There is some irony in us unlocking mercenaries due to exactly the kind of situation I want to hire them to avoid in the first place ;) .

And the pirate thing was less needing them and more avoiding possible losses while also keeping the pirates busy and away from our ships/trade.
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Well, indeed, but there are some real cultural inclinations and justified fears involved in not having mercenaries. By the same token, city isn't a big fan of hiring pirates that they despise; it has a Rhodian position that pirates are scum and using them is a breach of commercial morals. Which is very valuable for trade, as it means more openness to trade outside the city, but constrains options.
 
Godwinson said:
So, let's summarize, shall we?

We picked Syracuse as our enemy, then immediately charge into a war against Taras, thus ensuring that we have both as enemies. We went off to war at the same time as our League was agitating for concessions, thus providing them ample leverage over us. We've gone off to war with Taras without dealing with the Dauni first. We've gone to war over a defensive alliance with the Messapi, who have fallen into infighting because we specifically chose not to help stabilize them. Our Thurii allies are irrelevant, because they're not positioned to do anything in this conflict.

Frankly, I'd almost say that we'd deserve to lose the war, after this level of underwhelming grand-strategy.
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Don't forget that we now have explicit confirmation that we look like barbaroi lovers to people inside Eretria as well. Our diplo took a pretty good hit to the face. We've got no choice but to bribe Metapontion now and hope our reserves back home can fend off potential Dauni raids.
 
HastyGaming said:
I still have no idea why people picked Syracuse as our enemy.
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The idea was that we would cozy up to Metapointoin while avoiding getting too hostile with Taras. Reducing Syracuse would have left Taras well and truly surrounded and ripe for the picking. See how well that plan turned out!

Orisha91 said:
Don't forget that we now have explicit confirmation that we look like barbaroi lovers to people inside Eretria as well. Our diplo took a pretty good hit to the face. We've got no choice but to bribe Metapontion now and hope our reserves back home can fend off potential Dauni raids.
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What if they commit to more than just raiding?
 
Godwinson said:
So, let's summarize, shall we?

We picked Syracuse as our enemy, then immediately charge into a war against Taras, thus ensuring that we have both as enemies. We went off to war at the same time as our League was agitating for concessions, thus providing them ample leverage over us. We've gone off to war with Taras without dealing with the Dauni first. We've gone to war over a defensive alliance with the Messapi, who have fallen into infighting because we specifically chose not to help stabilize them. Our Thurii allies are irrelevant, because they're not positioned to do anything in this conflict.

Frankly, I'd almost say that we'd deserve to lose the war, after this level of underwhelming grand-strategy.
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Yeah, the situation isn't ... ideal, but we aren't necessarily in a bad position. Picking Syracuse as our enemy means Taras wasn't building a coalition for war against us for years, and so this war will be easier. The Legue concessions are galling in principle but aren't actually a big deal, with the possible exception of the super-majority veto, and we can take them without internal unrest from the citizens due to the pressing situation. The Dauni are unfortunate, yes, but we were pressed for time to keep Taras from getting even stronger. Meanwhile, the Messapii are blatantly our future clay and so we don't actually want them to get stronger, just absorb casualties and still like us in the aftermath. Thurii is honestly better off keeping their troops fresh for the war against Syrakuse, we can take Taras on our own.

In summery, I see your points but the situation is still navigable.
 
So i'm defintively leaning towards The Serpent's Vice and negotiating with the Dauni. My main worry though is whether the Drakonian Strategos is skilled enough to succesfully execute the strategy.
 
LonelyWolf999 said:
@Cetashwayo - does the head strategos we pick have to support the plan we choose?
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You don't vote for strategic plans. You vote for strategoi who execute their supported plan. There's two strategic plans. Two strategoi support one, and one supports the other. When you elect a lead strategos you also endorse the plan they support.

Which is to say you choose a plan through strategoi. You have more choice for the first campaign plan, and the strategoi are tailor-made for the plan they support; it wouldn't make much sense for the guy who wants to avoid a head-on confrontation to have very high courage.
 
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