*looks awkwardly at Tyene, our alchemical facilities, and plans for industrialised hydra-blood production*
*looks awkwardly at own plans for researching a safe-ish way of wielding Negative Energy and teaching such in Scholarum to those with natural talent for it*
*looks really awkwardly at a shitton of things we did*
enslaving others to one's will
*looks awkwardly at Daemon-worshippers, and many other people we charmed in one way or another*

Yeah, Crone must hate us about as much as Father does :V
 
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Asking Lucan shit is just giving him a free chance to look nice, unless you actually ask him about what about kindly beings that refuse or can't worship the seven
 
Updated my first plan. Still not sure which to go with.

[] Try to speak to both of them
-[] Viserys gently interjects before Lucan can fully disengage from the conversation he had just been leading, "Pardon my interruption, Brother Lucan, but could you please clarify your statement? If I understand correctly, you deem the practice of magic, so long as it is guided by the hand of the Seven, but what of those mages who reject such guidance? Surely, if they break no laws of the realm, do not seek to harm or exploit others, then they should be free to practice their magic in peace?"
--[] "Surely you would not advocate anything so barbaric as forced conversion, Brother?" Viserys acts suitably disturbed by such a prospect. "Or make war against our neighbors who do not serve the Seven? And what of our friends the Fey, whom serve no gods yet practice magic as easily and naturally as you or I breath?"
---[] Depending on Lucan's answer, and any responses from Ollidor, ask the following if Viserys thinks he will receive a meaningful answer; "If the Seven are to guide mages, what then of those organizations which already employ magic? Tales speak of some among the Lantern Bearers of Oldtown who wield some degree of magic, though a much better example would be the Golden Shields which even now protect the realm. Should they fall under control of the Faith?"


and

[] Seek out Kyle and Lady Myssa, for we have urgent news to share with them both.
-[] When we find them, ask to speak with them alone for a moment, if possible. If not, ask that Kyle only have those he trusts most among his faction at hand to hear our news.
--[] Go on to explain what we heard from Ollidor and Lucan's conversation, focusing especially on Lucan's statements that make it clear that no matter how lenient he seems, he appears to only trust those who serve the Seven with the ability to use magic. If this is true, then any support he appeared to offer Kyle in securing the right for mortals to bargain with the Fey, who themselves are innately supernatural creatures who practice magic in nearly every aspect of their lives and who by default worship no gods, is hollow at best, a slick bit of political maneuvering to secure his own place in the Conclave.
---[] A much worse case, however, would be that Lucan wishes to lull Kyle's faction and their Fey allies into a sense of complacency until he is able to more tightly grab the reins of power among the Faith.
----[] And finally, though we hesitate to even mention it because we cannot corroborate the accounts, we have encountered multiple individuals who claim Lucan and his followers have persecuted mages, even those who serve the Seven, if they refuse to join his cause, outright slaying some or attempting to force others to live their lives without the magic they have been 'cursed' to bear. This paints a disturbing picture of Lucan, of a man willing to say one thing but do another, and not merely the petty hypocrisies so common among flawed men, but more profound and egregious sins, such as virtually enslaving mages who would rather be left to their own business while simultaneously preaching acceptance and good will to those ignorant of his actions.
 
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Asking Lucan shit is just giving him a free chance to look nice, unless you actually ask him about what about kindly beings that refuse or can't worship the seven

@Goldfish this is pretty much entirely my position on your vote. We don't want to engage him on this ground.

I've got a Pathfinder game on, so you'll have to wait for more than this from me. But it's a very good point.
 
Updated my first plan. Still not sure which to go with.

[] Try to speak to both of them
-[] Viserys gently interjects before Lucan can fully disengage from the conversation he had just been leading, "Pardon my interruption, Brother Lucan, but could you please clarify your statement? If I understand correctly, you deem the practice of magic, so long as it is guided by the hand of the Seven, but what of those mages who reject such guidance? Surely, if they break no laws of the realm, do not seek to harm or exploit others, then they should be free to practice their magic in peace?"
--[] "Surely you would not advocate forced conversion, Brother? Or make war against our neighbors who do not serve the Seven?"
---[] Depending on Lucan's answer, and any responses from Ollidor, ask the following if Viserys thinks he will receive a meaningful answer; "If the Seven are to guide mages, what then of those organizations which already employ magic? Tales speak of some among the Lantern Bearers of Oldtown who wield some degree of magic, though a much better example would be the Golden Shields which even now protect the realm. Should they fall under control of the Faith?"


and

[] Seek out Kyle and Lady Myssa, for we have urgent news to share with them both.
-[] When we find them, ask to speak with them alone for a moment, if possible. If not, ask that Kyle only have those he trusts most among his faction at hand to hear our news.
--[] Go on to explain what we heard from Ollidor and Lucan's conversation, focusing especially on Lucan's statements that make it clear that no matter how lenient he seems, he appears to only trust those who serve the Seven with the ability to use magic. If this is true, then any support he appeared to offer Kyle in securing the right for mortals to bargain with the Fey, who themselves are innately supernatural creatures who practice magic in nearly every aspect of their lives and who by default worship no gods, is hollow at best, a slick bit of political maneuvering to secure his own place in the Conclave.
---[] A much worse case, however, would be that Lucan wishes to lull Kyle's faction and their Fey allies into a sense of complacency until he is able to more tightly grab the reins of power among the Faith.
----[] And finally, though we hesitate to even mention it because we cannot corroborate the accounts, we have encountered multiple individuals who claim Lucan and his followers have persecuted mages, even those who serve the Seven, if they refuse to join his cause, outright slaying some or attempting to force others to live their lives without the magic they have been 'cursed' to bear. This paints a disturbing picture of Lucan, of a man willing to say one thing but do another, and not merely the petty hypocrisies so common among flawed men, but more profound and egregious sins, such as virtually enslaving mages who would rather be left to their own business while simultaneously preaching acceptance and good will to those ignorant of his actions.
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the Seven (or at least the Andals) really have a problem with forced conversion?
When the Andals invaded Westeros they slaughtered all the First Men south of the Neck unless they converted and married into their lineages, which certainly sounds forced to me :V

Said invasion also is looked upon rather favorably still, and conversion at sword point is likely something to be expected of a more militant Faith.

I also think it might be better to explicitly mention the Fey; we know (and the dude we're pretending to be should too) that the Fey are both inherently magical and disdain the worship of any God. If magic is sinful unless under the aegis of the Seven, how does that mesh with the idea that the Fey can be both benevolent and malevolent, just as a man can be?
 
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the Seven (or at least the Andals) really have a problem with forced conversion?
When the Andals invaded Westeros they slaughtered all the First Men south of the Neck unless they converted and married into their lineages, which certainly sounds forced to me :V

Not quite. While things got very bloody in he Vale and only slightly less so in the Riverlands the rest of the South saw pretty peaceful conversions with the Reach being by far the most fortunate in that regard.
 
Not quite. While things got very bloody in he Vale and only slightly less so in the Riverlands the rest of the South saw pretty peaceful conversions with the Reach being by far the most fortunate in that regard.

The Reach's rulers also saw those examples given and decided to preempt the coming conquerors by converting in advance and then calming down their murder boners for land by intermarrying some lines together as a concession. It's given a rosier picture by Septons, but this was just some canny political maneuvering for the time, not a sign that the South is more civilized, it actually lends more credence that the deeper south you go, the cannier a plotter you are.

Which makes the Dornish the canniest of them all.
 
@Goldfish this is pretty much entirely my position on your vote. We don't want to engage him on this ground.

I've got a Pathfinder game on, so you'll have to wait for more than this from me. But it's a very good point.
This is why I'm not sure about which of my plans to use. On the one hand, confronting Lucan at all at this point could go poorly, but at the same time, it could work out quite well for us.
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the Seven (or at least the Andals) really have a problem with forced conversion?
When the Andals invaded Westeros they slaughtered all the First Men south of the Neck unless they converted and married into their lineages, which certainly sounds forced to me :V

Said invasion also is looked upon rather favorably still, and conversion at sword point is likely something to be expected of a more militant Faith.

I also think it might be better to explicitly mention the Fey; we know (and the dude we're pretending to be should too) that the Fey are both inherently magical and disdain the worship of any God. If magic is sinful unless under the aegis of the Seven, how does that mesh with the idea that the Fey can be both benevolent and malevolent, just as a man can be?
Updated my first plan slightly, to better fit the Dywen persona, with emphasis on his abhorrence for force conversion. Also mentioned the Fey.
 
Would you be alright waiting for a bit? I'll have some time later on tonight.
Of course. Notice I haven't even put any X's in one of my plans yet? I'm really unsure of how to proceed here.
I could do that Jon interlude next if you guys need more time.
That would be great, DP. I really appreciate your patience with us during the Conclave. The extra interludes you've been writing so we can have more time to hash out our course of action are a huge help.

And I love your interludes, too, so that works out really well. ;)
 
Of course. Notice I haven't even put any X's in one of my plans yet? I'm really unsure of how to proceed here.

That would be great, DP. I really appreciate your patience with us during the Conclave. The extra interludes you've been writing so we can have more time to hash out our course of action are a huge help.

And I love your interludes, too, so that works out really well. ;)

It's perfectly OK, the last thing I want is to force you guys to end a discussion prematurely. That's a good part of what makes writing here so fun for me
 
Obviously if we revealed ourselves here and now we'd be summarily blasted, but given how not-crazed Lucan has been acting I'm giving it better odds we could have come at him under flag of non-aggression before the conclave. Even if all we did was hand him a list of our major enemies and said "These are all things you should probably make sure are formally labeled as against the Faith. Also here's what the Reach Fey are -actually- up to."
 
Obviously if we revealed ourselves here and now we'd be summarily blasted, but given how not-crazed Lucan has been acting I'm giving it better odds we could have come at him under flag of non-aggression before the conclave. Even if all we did was hand him a list of our major enemies and said "These are all things you should probably make sure are formally labeled as against the Faith. Also here's what the Reach Fey are -actually- up to."
Roland, the Angel we spoke with who is serving Lucan currently, actually told us he didn't trust Lucan to honor a parlay prior to the Conclave. That's super harsh coming from an Angel
 
Roland, the Angel we spoke with who is serving Lucan currently, actually told us he didn't trust Lucan to honor a parlay prior to the Conclave. That's super harsh coming from an Angel
Lucan is likely of the mindset that the tenets of the Seven are all important and worthy of reverence, but that it's worth Falling if it's the only way to stop us.
 
no other then ourselves can decide it's outcome."
"Then how are we to decide who is shepherd to come and tend to the flock, and who is the wolf come to prey upon them?"

"It pains me to imagine souls lost to the light of the seven forevemore, but that is a task they were merciful enough to spare us. It falls upon us to judge earthly matters."

"it is impetuous of me perhaps, but it weighs heavily on my mind. Especially after the lantern bearers have supposedly found a means to purify those who were once thought lost to the corruption of the horror of the deep."

"As one who has taken steel and fire to the foes of all things, how do you divide those who's lives may be spared and who's must be taken."

"Particularly mortals misled by them, or compelled by force of arms or by magic to do wickedness?"

Edit: I can't do Viserys targayren master schemer and devastator of legions, but...

I can do a simple NG priest who seeks to avert the specter of war on the horizon. So, since we're pretending to be that I went for it.
 
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Not sure what is best approach at this time so I wouldn't be against interlude.

As mentioned this would be so much easier if Lucan was a mad fanatic.
 
Things are hard. For now I'm inclined to try and reveal Lucan's buffs through the little fae. As for how, well, we happen to know Lucan used to be a brother who swore a vow of silence (we were around that area as Dywen too). So how is a man who swore a vow of silence so good at talking? We can totally needle him over breaking his old vows while we're there.

Only problem is we'd come off as way too aggressive for what is essentially a begging brother, and everyone will figure out we're actually someone with an agenda and be suspicious.
 
Things are hard. For now I'm inclined to try and reveal Lucan's buffs through the little fae. As for how, well, we happen to know Lucan used to be a brother who swore a vow of silence (we were around that area as Dywen too). So how is a man who swore a vow of silence so good at talking? We can totally needle him over breaking his old vows while we're there.

Only problem is we'd come off as way too aggressive for what is essentially a begging brother, and everyone will figure out we're actually someone with an agenda and be suspicious.
"Seven released me from my oaths" is what I would say wrt the silence, I recommend against poking that.

However, aggression and agenda are not outside of Dwyen's remit imo - he believes in peace and truth and will argue with passion, and incision and "I am not fucking letting your stupid bullshit slide" if he feels it is important to do so.

Based on my read of the persona, at least.
 
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