A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

The Sandman · May 1, 2019

So I feel like Nicky's little plan is actually very easy to derail the instant you know what event he's using to provide the mystical mojo for his little ritual.

All you need to do is have Santa (as the one being who we know must be able to stop time all over the planet, and yes I know who he actually is in DF) deliver a marking of fresh lamb's blood over the door of everyone the Nickelhead curse is targeting just before sunset on the first night of Passover. And since it's a gift provided to children, it should easily be within Santa's portfolio to do so.

Also, because humans are stupid, I guarantee at least one of the Nickelheads wrote down something that identifies them. It's like people making their password "password" or writing it on a post-it note they attach to their computer.

Snowfire · May 1, 2019

The Sandman said:
All you need to do is have Santa (as the one being who we know must be able to stop time all over the planet, and yes I know who he actually is in DF) deliver a marking of fresh lamb's blood over the door of everyone the Nickelhead curse is targeting. And since it's a gift provided to children, it should easily be within Santa's portfolio to do so.

One rather large problem: it's spring. Kringle is not Santa in spring. He's not Santa until after Halloween, we have his word in Cold Days on that.

More to the point, just because Nic is using the metaphysical location of Passover to amp up the ritual does not mean that it has the same loophole. Uriel oversaw the Passover, and so made sure to not touch those prepared for it.

As far as Viserys and the rest are aware, this is just a massive ritual to replicate the general 'every firstborn dies' effect. And do you really think Nic would leave such an obvious out open?

The Sandman said:
Also, because humans are stupid, I guarantee at least one of the Nickelheads wrote down something that identifies them. It's like people making their password "password" or writing it on a post-it note they attach to their computer.

The human might. If the Denarian let them, which they won't. Then again, if it's the Denarian writing it is it really mortal knowledge anymore?

TotallyNotEvil · May 1, 2019

DragonParadox said:
"I could not say about the servants, but there were handful of hedge knights garbed in far more magic than they could have reasonably afforded or found. One even had what looked like a soul-bonded weapon," you reply, the face of the dark-hared man who had almost been able to see through your glamour by skill alone clear in your mind.

First, dark-haired.

Second, did I miss something or is this you telling us what we saw offscreen?

zxzx24 said:
The Warlord Archon MAY lend another creature it's thurible, but will only do so in the most dire circumstances.

He wasn't able to lend it in the latest version.

zxzx24 said:
A Warlord archon can use a free hand to draw forth burning ash from the thurible to attack as with +1 Holy flaming burst greatsword or a +1 Holy flaming javelin. The holy ash loses all magical properties after being used to attack in such a manner, but the Warlord Archon may draw forth an unlimited number attacks this way

You realize this allows him to make infinite magical weapons? Because you didn't say they crumble if not handled by him.

zxzx24 said:
+ 1d6 Fire + 32/19-20 x2) - +2d6 damage against Evil targets, +2d10 fire damage on critical.
Ranged +1 Holy Flaming javelin +22/+17/+12/+7 = (1d6 + 1d6 Fire + 23/ x2) - +2d6 damage against Evil targets - 30 ft range increment

First, flaming burst on the sword. Second, I already gave you the numbers.

Third, what the fuck? +32/+23 damage? Not at those attack bonuses.

zxzx24 said:
Feats: Deadly Aim, Power Attack, Improved Initiative, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Clustered Shots, Pinpoint Targeting, Call Truce,

Aaaaand it's a completely different build.

Deliste · May 1, 2019

[X] Goldfish

Snowfire said:
I turned, looking back at Viserys to find him staring at something I couldn't see, his expression one of shock and pure wonder. He noticed the moment I turned and covered it well, but he'd seen something there.

Snowfire said:
I was aware of Viserys relaxing somewhere in the back of my mind

Snowfire said:
Most wouldn't have noticed the reaction that prompted, but I'd been around Viserys long enough to notice the small motion that freed his hands, making ready to summon power.

Snowfire said:
"I see," he said slowly. He clearly didn't, but I could explain Ivy's nature when we had time.

Dresden rolls a lot of Nat 20s for Sense Motive it seems, I'm going to assume this is somehow making up for the Nat 1s with women cause how else is he rocking scores to read Viserys so consistently.

Snowfire said:
The human might. If the Denarian let them, which they won't. Then again, if it's the Denarian writing it is it really mortal knowledge anymore?

Are Viserys'?

TotallyNotEvil · May 1, 2019

Deliste said:
Dresden rolls a lot of Nat 20s for Sense Motive it seems, I'm going to assume this is somehow making up for the Nat 1s with women cause how else is he rocking scores to read Viserys so consistently.

I was thinking the same. Viserys isn't one to show his emotions that openly, and has a standing bluff of +41.

So either Harry was absurdly good/lucky here, or Viserys wants him to be able to read what he is reading.

Making a bluff check to let only that one person whose quirks you are reasonably familiar with read certain things off your expression, but not anyone else, is within his bluff skill for sure.

zxzx24 · May 1, 2019

TotallyNotEvil said:
First, dark-haired.

Second, did I miss something or is this you telling us what we saw offscreen?

He wasn't able to lend it in the latest version.

You realize this allows him to make infinite magical weapons? Because you didn't say they crumble if not handled by him.

First, flaming burst on the sword. Second, I already gave you the numbers.

Third, what the fuck? +32/+23 damage? Not at those attack bonuses.

Aaaaand it's a completely different build.

Those are just creature blocks.

Yrael is Yrael.

Thanks for the feedback though. Also yeah, pathfinder version of power attack and thiiiiis.

Crake · May 1, 2019

Deliste said:
[X] Goldfish

Dresden rolls a lot of Nat 20s for Sense Motive it seems, I'm going to assume this is somehow making up for the Nat 1s with women cause how else is he rocking scores to read Viserys so consistently.

Are Viserys'?

Are you conflating that Viserys' knowledge isn't quite mortal because he draws some of it from the Dragon Dream, yet still might make obvious mistakes, therefore so might too Denarians?

Not if Denarians aren't designed to make those mistakes.

And Viserys and dragons cheat in general, trailing in their wake many of the virtues of the deathless and the mortal and quickly dying but also having the foibles of both, that being easily set into their ways, or being highly individualistic to the point of not being able to neatly slot into a monumentally huge mechanism neatly.

Viserys' cheating is somewhat different from other dragons in that while he like them can't stand self-delusion, he realizes the base potential of any one being can be shattered completely and they can and will subvert your expectations. For example, a Big Bad doing evil but with motivations outside the scope of what they are used to, and because of that, they aren't going to fall prey to the usual set of tropes that distracts the bad guy from accomplishing his goal. Yes, I am bringing Thanos into this, he is quite topical. And he won. Well, the first time anyway.

Something tells me time travel won't be the solution in HT.

Deliste · May 1, 2019

Crake said:
Are you conflating that Viserys' knowledge isn't quite mortal because he draws some of it from the Dragon Dream, yet still might make obvious mistakes, therefore so might too Denarians?

Not if Denarians aren't designed to make those mistakes.

And Viserys and dragons cheat in general, trailing in their wake many of the virtues of the deathless and the mortal and quickly dying but also having the foibles of both, that being easily set into their ways, or being highly individualistic to the point of not being able to neatly slot into a monumentally huge mechanism neatly.

Viserys' cheating is somewhat different from other dragons in that while he like them can't standing self-delusion, he realizes the base potential of any one being can be shattered completely and they can and will subvert your expectations. For example, a Big Bad doing evil but with motivations outside the scope of what they are used to, and because of that, they aren't going to fall prey to the usual set of tropes that distracts the bad guy from accomplishing his goal. Yes, I am bringing Thanos into this, he is quite topical. And he won. Well, the first time anyway.

Something tells me time travel won't be the solution in HT.

No, I'm saying he isn't mortal because he isn't mortal.

In Horde Thief I believe this was explicitly stated multiple times that while they don't know what he is, they know what he isn't and Mortal is one of those things.

As a result, either Ivy never saw his notes or Denarian writing counts too.

spiritualatheist · May 2, 2019

D King Hecht said:
The main fears that I saw was stuff about genocide and dealing with religions. My fear has to do with some of the Planetosi religions being stand-ins for IRL ones.

Azel said:
The issue is the vagueness of the rules, how heavy handed they were enforced this time and the amount of subjectivity involved.

I'm pretty sure that my thread could get me infracted for a few months if the wrong person reads it in a crabby mood.

DragonParadox said:
I'll be honest the reason why I am generally inclined to trust the staff is based very much on personal experience. I have had precisely two interactions with the staff in four and a half years of posting:

One 25 point infraction for talking off topic too long in a quest two years back

Asking @Algalon for help with setting up the dual-GM in Strange Tides. He was very willing to help out.

I'm not really seeing the arbitrary draconian enforcement people are talking about. Maybe it happened in the quest that started all this, I would not know because did not participate but from the sample size of all the threads I have participated over those four years the moderation team seems generally very reasonable.

Deliste said:
Was I missing something with the Carthage quote in the Mods post btw "Ceterum censeo Mecca esse delendam.", the other quote was obvious in what they were getting at but a Rome v Carthage meme in a Rome quest seemed really inoffensive.

Sorry this is late, but hopefully I can allay some fears about this.

As someone who read the entire 50+ page thread and the original quest, these fears are pretty baseless. There aren't any blanket content restrictions (other than shit like sexualizing minors that is actually illegal); the requirement is that you need to treat mature topics maturely. Basically, you can have war crimes, sex, even genocide in your quest (and several currently running quests do in fact include such material), so long as you aren't engaging in hatred towards real or fictional groups. It's the difference between explaining that the PC should commit genocide because this is a fitting culmination to their character arc/is objectively the superior mechanical choice, and voting to commit genocide because "all those filthy Westerosi are too stupid to live."

As for punishing QM's for what happens in their threads, this is actually a really low bar to clear. Literally all the Mods are asking is for QMs to tell creepy or rulebreaking players to cut that shit out and report them if they don't.

Finally, this isn't actually a new rule; it has been in place for a couple years now, so if you haven't gotten hit by it by now, you probably won't.

Hope this helps!

T_of_A · May 2, 2019

[X] Goldfish

Takesis · May 2, 2019

[X] Goldfish

spiritualatheist · May 2, 2019

[X] Goldfish

Duesal · May 2, 2019

DragonParadox said:
He saw a Weirwood pale as bleached bone and worn as old stone. Upon it a dragon with rustling green leaves in place of fearful gleaming scales coiled through the branches, and where its claws touched, new life took root, crimson and red entwined. All around were songs like the voices of the Children he had so briefly heard, and they did not sing of sorrow but of joy. Above the tree ravens circled, awaiting some bloody feast to come.

"Awake from thy sorrows, Son of the Mountains!" the ravens cried. "Let not the burdens of thine heart chain you in place while the Gods have need of your aid!"

"My aid? What good is that?" Oddric called in voiceless sorrow with anger bubbling beneath it.

Twas the dragon who spoke, his voice like thunder in his ear: "Ride now to the Great Barrow whence restlessly lies the First King of Men. Find the aid of stout heart and strong arm, and with their aid seek out those who spread the tomb-blight in their wake. In blood grow the Gods, in blood you shall be forged."

@DragonParadox, did we end up giving Bloodraven a partner in crime by bringing back Felzath Farseer? Is he occupying himself by helping Bloodraven in his schemes?

Crake · May 2, 2019

Viserys, glaring: "I'm his partner in far-spanning conspiracy."

Brynden, amused: "There is more than enough conspiracies in the world for the three of us to scheme upon, Your Grace."

Viserys: "Then I'll make simulacrums."

Felzath: "I think--"

Viserys, abruptly stamping his seal on Brynden's requisition form for 'one dragon seer': "Denied."

DragonParadox · May 2, 2019

Duesal said:
@DragonParadox, did we end up giving Bloodraven a partner in crime by bringing back Felzath Farseer? Is he occupying himself by helping Bloodraven in his schemes?

No he is more or less bound to the tree.

Deliste · May 2, 2019

DragonParadox said:
No he is more or less bound to the tree.

As was Blood Raven until very recently.

DragonParadox · May 2, 2019

Several people in the thread have recently brought up the issue of Viserys (and by extension the companions) being hypocritical, specifically in a way that is disengaging to the story. Going back over it I have to agree. I've been spending too long in Viserys' head rushing though the world-building and the actions and missing the subtler character moments that made him not so much evil (since that is not itself a problem, Malarys is a favorite after all) but un-selfaware .

I think this has to come to a head specifically in a way that will call for a vote so you guys can decide how you will react when faced with the consequences of said hypocrisy. The solution that comes to mind first is to have an enemy confront you with it but that has the issue that I would have to give your enemies knowledge of things you have worked very hard to keep secret. There is however one other person who could know what you are doing, is on your side and would like Viserys not to fall to the temptations of power and tyranny, Syrax. I'm thinking of doing a dream sequence to address wide-ranging subtle/pervasive issues.

What do you guys think?

Duesal · May 2, 2019

DragonParadox said:
Several people in the thread have recently brought up the issue of Viserys (and by extension the companions) being hypocritical, specifically in a way that is disengaging to the story. Going back over it I have to agree. I've been spending too long in Viserys' head rushing though the world-building and the actions and missing the subtler character moments that made him not so much evil (since that is not itself a problem, Malarys is a favorite after all) but un-selfaware .

I think this has to come to a head specifically in a way that will call for a vote so you guys can decide how you will react when faced with the consequences of said hypocrisy. The solution that comes to mind first is to have an enemy confront you with it but that has the issue that I would have to give your enemies knowledge of things you have worked very hard to keep secret. There is hwover one other person who could know what you are doing, is on your side and would like Viserys not to fall to the temptations of power and tyranny, Syrax. I'm thinking of doing a dream sequence to address wide-ranging subtle/pervasive issues.

What do you guys think?

I'd prefer a Viserys who knowingly commits evil if it furthers his goals. I don't mind him taking in the full consequences, it's just the moments of "regret" right before he goes and does it anyway that come off as increasingly fake to me. It's like a little pat on the back of "don't worry, you mean well," and I'd prefer if we move away from that and more towards "I know this is evil and I'm doing it anyway because ___." I'm sure plenty of people will have their own thoughts against this, but the way this has been handled has been bugging me for a really long time.

We can and will commit more evil in the future. There will be more coups, more people who die because they're inconvenient to long-term strategies, etc. I'd rather recognize the full extent of the evil, reconcile it with our goals, and move on instead of deluding ourselves and claiming to be good.

And no, this isn't demanding evil!Viserys. This is asking for a Viserys who is self-aware.

DragonParadox · May 2, 2019

Duesal said:
I'd prefer a Viserys who knowingly commits evil if it furthers his goals. I don't mind him taking in the full consequences, it's just the moments of "regret" right before he goes and does it anyway that come off as increasingly fake to me. It's like a little pat on the back of "don't worry, you mean well," and I'd prefer if we move away from that and more towards "I know this is evil and I'm doing it anyway because ___." I'm sure plenty of people will have their own thoughts against this, but the way this has been handled has been bugging me for a really long time.

We can and will commit more evil in the future. There will be more coups, more people who die because they're inconvenient to long-term strategies, etc. I'd rather recognize the full extent of the evil, reconcile it with our goals, and move on instead of deluding ourselves and claiming to be good.

And no, this isn't demanding evil!Viserys. This is asking for a Viserys who is self-aware.

Which is I want you guys to confront the truth of his actions and vote on that. This is not going to be a one time thing either. A vote to reform your actions will come with IC reminders from now on and a vote to keep doing what you are doing will mean no more excuses IC, just being at peace with the evil Viserys commits.

Duesal · May 2, 2019

DragonParadox said:
Which is I want you guys to confront the truth of his actions and vote to do that. This is not going to be a one time thing either. A vote to reform your actions will come with IC reminders from no on and a vote to keep doing what you are doing will mean no more excuses IC, just bing at peace with the evil Viserys commits.

Fully confronting the evils we commit and carrying on would be ideal.

Deliste · May 2, 2019

As above, literally the only issue I have had with Characterisation is the squeamishness when it comes to these acts.

As much as Azel loves to crow he's lead the thread by the nose down a slippery slope I think most people have known full well the consequences of voted actions and considered them worth it, for whatever their voting motivation may be.

As a result I haven't considered Viserys hypocritical, if he berates someone for actions we've taken ourselves that's fine to me because we never just moralise at someone, it's in service of a goal and if that goal is being achieved then it's not "hypocrisy" it's just one more grey act for a purpose.

Duesal · May 2, 2019

Deliste said:
As above, literally the only issue I have had with Characterisation is the squeamishness when it comes to these acts.

As much as Azel loves to crow he's lead the thread by the nose down a slippery slope I think most people have known full well the consequences of voted actions and considered them worth it, for whatever their voting motivation may be.

As a result I haven't considered Viserys hypocritical, if he berates someone for actions we've taken ourselves that's fine to me because we never just moralise at someone, it's in service of a goal and if that goal is being achieved then it's not "hypocrisy" it's just one more grey act.

The squeamishness was the core of my issue as well. When it comes up with sacrifice of all things, something Viserys is intimately familiar with, that's when things become massively dissonant.

etincelle047 · May 2, 2019

I Don't want or need a paladin vyseris who is Always in the right.
We have interests, goals and allies that will pit us against honest/good peoples. And we will have to kill them.

Believe it or not people, the overwhelming majority of conflicts (even Deadly), do not have a good or a bad side to them.
I'd like us to be mature enough to acknowledge that, and keep going regardless because ultimately we're on vyseris side.

Snowfire · May 2, 2019

Duesal said:
I'd prefer a Viserys who knowingly commits evil if it furthers his goals. I don't mind him taking in the full consequences, it's just the moments of "regret" right before he goes and does it anyway that come off as increasingly fake to me. It's like a little pat on the back of "don't worry, you mean well," and I'd prefer if we move away from that and more towards "I know this is evil and I'm doing it anyway because ___." I'm sure plenty of people will have their own thoughts against this, but the way this has been handled has been bugging me for a really long time.

We can and will commit more evil in the future. There will be more coups, more people who die because they're inconvenient to long-term strategies, etc. I'd rather recognize the full extent of the evil, reconcile it with our goals, and move on instead of deluding ourselves and claiming to be good.

And no, this isn't demanding evil!Viserys. This is asking for a Viserys who is self-aware.

And the only effective way to get this is for someone to bring the core of that hypocrisy in a way we easily ignore, which is what we're being offered here. And at the end of the day, whilst I fully expect this viewpoint to overwhelm any attempts at opposition, it is still a choice that the thread deserves to be given to make.

Character development isn't just a result of direct actions. It's a result of choosing to accept or deny the consequences of those actions, too. Now, I'll happily admit that I don't fully agree with the broader sweep of opinion of some of the others involved in this conversation, and will no doubt raise certain vote directions in opposition depending on what results from this - you all know my background here.

Human beings are allowed to be hypocritical. Because at the end of the day, we all are. Big or small, we have our contradictions and those things make us human. As a human made a dragon, and a scion of House Targaryen, it's expected that these flaws would cut deeper into Viserys than they would most others, even as virtues are amplified as well. Power does this, yes, but it's more than that too.

Self-actualisation, the process of, well, processing, is something that you never get to stop doing if you want to succeed. And it's easy to slip. But even getting to the point that you can do so is something that people can just not do for a lifetime because it's not important to them. They take the discord, they lock it away, and they move on. And they keep moving so that they don't notice.

Viserys is to a workaholic what the Pacific is to a puddle on the roadside. It's not hard to pull together the strings of his being once you know that.

Sqweaktoy · May 2, 2019

My only issue is the risk that 'confronting the reality of his actions' might end up as a thinly veiled excuse to abandon what morals he actually does have. I like that Viserys is a three dimensional character who can have some deeply held principles even if they don't meet some arbitrary standard for what would be 'consistent'.

I'll use a specific example that is fairly important to me: Viserys losing his aversion for harming innocents (most especially children) without some very well founded reason for the change would basically cross the moral event horizon for me.

A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

So Zetta Slowpoke

Polyglot of Chimera

I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING

I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING

Polyglot of Chimera