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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Duesal said:
That said, I don't think the location of her appearance is a miscommunication of intent. I fully expect her to go "I just have to use the Orb to enslave you to R'hllor's will since you have strayed from the true path" if she doesn't get her way. And I expect R'hllor to give her full divine support in the process.
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I would be worried about that too of we weren't surrounded by people who we trust with our lives, and our sisters divine philosophy was "fuck the God's"

Duesal said:
And yet Viserys is the dragon that Melisandre was forewarned by R'hllor about, which is why she's here to confront us.

Sure you can say there are other dragons to worry about, but it's clear this is a threat against us first and foremost.
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Not Danny. Never.

He went after her once, (and be sure to remind Mel/burny of that fact @Azel).

The threads murder boner is... I'm comfortable ignoring it.

You guys also seems to think razing the feywild is a good idea.
 
My gut reaction is to talk. She hasn't attacked yet and she would pretty much have to in order to threaten us in any other way. That's why I would prefer to get her allegiance.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
2. The Shaitan aren't loyal to us and could turn on us at any moment if they wanted to for political reasons we can't even guess at, and yet we accept to negotiate with them! You're being unreasonable.
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Because they are reasonable beings, motivated mostly by profit to deal with us (unlike her motivations).
And as a strict business relations we set up go, ours are really good for both sides.

TalonofAnathrax said:
3. And if you think that being beholden to someone is the same thing as being a slave, then you're completely mad. How can you even function in everyday life if you can't tell the difference between slavery and owing someone a favor?
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And you are kinda taking this too seriously.
I. Misphrased.
My apologies for that.
Still, I am on the same position as Duesal here.

TalonofAnathrax said:
We know that she was around for a while and didn't claim the Orb: this is posturing more than an actual murder attempt.
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Because there was a powerful Lich in the way, dummy.
One that was a considerable danger to our party - It is all but confirmed, that she was waiting for one of them to fall and then finish off the winner.
 
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egoo said:
She is powerful as all fuck.
She has no other authority than Burny.
She's a manipulative, lying bitch, that is willing to do anything in order to succeed at what Burny requires of her.

But she is also prone to be blindsided by things she didn't predict, and acting like a total count then - look no further than her intent to kill our weakened companions, and her not seeing Rina as a person before two literal crits from Rina.

All in all, it comes down to her likely never being loyal to us - and as such, being an unpredictable factor that will fuck over our plans at every turn, if Burny wants her to.

And he will.
Remember the little fact, that we are going to schism the fuck out of his faith.
IC too.

I am holding myself back only because it would be OOC for Viserys to jump to murderblendering.

She was here to get something that will behold (I.e. enslave) us to R'hlor in a way few other things can.
In my eyes, she dies for that.
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Duesal said:
@DragonParadox, at the end of the day Melisandre is specifically waiting for Viserys next to one of the few artifacts that can actually manage to enslave him.

That goes beyond a mere guess that she's threatening us.
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It feels odd to be defending a character's potential motivations OOC like this instead of letting them speak for themselves so I will say this much, while Viserys does think she is a fanatic and very dangerous it also occurs to him that fanatics are often the most zealous reformers of their religions since they are doing it to correct 'misguided worship' of their gods.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
You're all so thin-skinned. We know that she was around for a while and didn't claim the Orb: this is posturing more than an actual murder attempt. We do the "negotiate from strength" thing all the time!
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She most likely didn't claim the Orb because there was a Lich-like undead and his sandy legions around before our companions killed them.
Azel said:
The religious views expressed in this post are neither mine, nor supposed to be Viserys. They are just what a person taking stock in faith needs to hear.
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It's still bullshit though.

If Mel is anywhere near our level she is not that far from comprehending gods, if not quite equal to one yet.
This won't fly and if it does not for long.
 
Azel said:
Quiet. Don't remind them. @Goldfish, @Duesal and me got a good thing going here where everyone threats us as the almighty god-kings of the thread.

Don't draw attention to the fact that we are just three random dudes with a computer.
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Also I am just another random dude with a computer who likes to write stories.:V

I have to say that I'm cautiously happy to see that while people have strong opinions we do not seem to have gotten to the point of unpleasant arguments and personal attacks.
 
egoo said:
Because there was a powerful Lich in the way, dummy.
One that was a considerable danger to our party - It is all but confirmed, that she was waiting for one of them to fall and then finish off the winner.
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No. She knew that this was here: she could have come with summoned servants (a Cleric of her level can easily call in dozens of CR 12+ allies if given a few days to prepare, or simply go off-plane to wherever the Red God lives and bring them back), or brought other Red Priests with class levels. We know that they have other Clerics, and in their millions of faithful surely there are strong martial PCs!
She could have fetched this herself a while ago. Instead, she came here to judge our servants and make a statement: "I'm strong, I could have done this, but I decided to give you a chance first. Now, shall we talk?"
 
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[X] Azel

Honestly aside from powerful PC it'd be really nice to have a Red Priestess willing to spread our more tolerant Red Faith (totally not heresy if it gets accepted!)

zxzx24 said:
So proud of Rina.

Also, holy shit. Was Mel actually just...

Nice?

To someone?

That's...

Whoa. Mind. Blown.
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Ehhh Mel isn't really as crazy as the fandom portrays her. I always liked The Westerosi 's approach on her character. Also another fic noted that Christianity and the Red Faith are kinda opposites in that the former assumes all people are inherently sinful and corrupted from birth and only the Grace of God redeems then while the latter actually assumes all men are good, with R'hlorr's flame in them, and it takes the Other dragging them down for them to become corrupted

Artemis1992 said:
Gah, if this keeps going we might not get to fight the greatest spellcaster in canon.
What a shame.:cry:
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EURON SON
 
DragonParadox said:
It feels odd to be defending a character's potential motivations OOC like this instead of letting them speak for themselves so I will say this much, while Viserys does think she is a fanatic and very dangerous it also occurs to him that fanatics are often the most zealous reformers of their religions since they are doing it to correct 'misguided worship' of their gods.
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And to get there, we still have to get over her zealousness, her high-level socials, and perhaps even a direct line to Burny.
And then we'd have to rely on her to be reasonable in such reformation.
We'd have to trust her to not make any hair-brained schemes....

*sigh*
This arguing is pointless.
If Azel's vote succeeds, there would be no stopping thread from looting her.
If it doesn't succeed, we get a fight.
But I feel it is likely to succeed, so I'm saaaaaad.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
1. Her failing to guess that we'd managed to steal Winter's power is perfectly normal. Even Bloodraven was amazed that we managed it!
2. The Shaitan aren't loyal to us and could turn on us at any moment if they wanted to for political reasons we can't even guess at, and yet we accept to negotiate with them! You're being unreasonable.
3. And if you think that being beholden to someone is the same thing as being a slave, then you're completely mad. How can you even function in everyday life if you can't tell the difference between slavery and owing someone a favor?
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1. That would be the preconceptions that DP was talking about. I'm not surprised she thought Rina was still beholden to the Others.
2. This isn't the best comparison. The Shaitan, at the end of the day, honor their agreements. They're Lawful to the core. I'm really not worried about them randomly backstabbing us.
3. Anyone but us having the orb would be disastrous. It isn't just Viserys or Amrelath who could be enslaved, but every Valyrian Dragon we have would be even more vulnerable. That's why everyone is on edge over this.

Real talk, I would love Melisandre to join us. She's powerful as hell, if severely misguided. But if this is her attempt at diplomacy then I'm losing hope.
TalonofAnathrax said:
You're all so thin-skinned. We know that she was around for a while and didn't claim the Orb: this is posturing more than an actual murder attempt. We do the "negotiate from strength" thing all the time!
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There was a powerful Lich spellcaster in the way, and Melisandre only showed herself after our party was exhausted post-battle. Forgive me for thinking this isn't exactly a sincere attempt at diplomacy.
zxzx24 said:
I would be worried about that too of we weren't surrounded by people who we trust with our lives, and our sisters divine philosophy was "fuck the God's"


Not Danny. Never.

He went after her once, (and be sure to remind Mel/burny of that fact @Azel).

The threads murder boner is... I'm comfortable ignoring it.

You guys also seems to think razing the feywild is a good idea.
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Oh, I'm actually confident if it comes to a fight, though I am apprehensive about Level 9 Cleric spells as well as possible high Miracles from R'hllor.

As for the feywild, I don't want to raze it. I'm far too scare of the place, and don't want to lose Legions in there to time dilation. I'll be happy if we get the fey to agree to respect our laws then just let the fey do their own thing in the feywild.
 
@Azel, how about offering her a chance to swap lore and learn Planar lore from us? I can't expect her to change her entire worldview on a single diplomatic success, but I do think that it could open an opportunity for further diplomancing.
Assuming she'd come as a sworn guest, of course.
 
Artemis1992 said:
She most likely didn't claim the Orb because there was a Lich-like undead and his sandy legions around before our companions killed them.

It's still bullshit though.

If Mel is anywhere near our level she is not that far from comprehending gods, if not quite equal to one yet.
This won't fly and if it does not for long.
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Look, I've learned over the years that you are a die-hard atheist, but what you are willfully ignoring is that other people aren't. Mel isn't an atheist. She will never accept that Burny is just a campfire that was fed too much juice. What she could accept is the idea of a true god outside all of this. The classical christian god who is invisible, incomprehensible and whose existence can't be logically proven or disproven.

Because at the core of it, religion is fueled by the need for reason. The need for order, for guidance. Those people who lack these things the most are those who often take to religion with the greatest fervor. And they are those who, when threatened, will lash out the hardest.

Is Mel capable of knowing that Burny is a make-believe friend that got enough believe to become real? Yes! She very much is capable of knowing that. It's even likely that she does know.

She isn't a fanatic despite this knowledge, but because of it.
 
Azel said:
Quiet. Don't remind them. @Goldfish, @Duesal and me got a good thing going here where everyone threats us as the almighty god-kings of the thread.

Don't draw attention to the fact that we are just three random dudes with a computer.
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Oi. I'm at least a Duke in this paradigm :V

Crake said:
I do all the time!

DOWN WITH THE TYRANNICAL BOURGEOIS!

UP WITH THE OPPRESSED THREAD PROLETARIAT!
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Well then you can write the social votes :V
 
Azel said:
Look, I've learned over the years that you are a die-hard atheist, but what you are willfully ignoring is that other people aren't. Mel isn't an atheist. She will never accept that Burny is just a campfire that was fed too much juice. What she could accept is the idea of a true god outside all of this. The classical christian god who is invisible, incomprehensible and whose existence can't be logically proven or disproven.

Because at the core of it, religion is fueled by the need for reason. The need for order, for guidance. Those people who lack these things the most are those who often take to religion with the greatest fervor. And they are those who, when threatened, will lash out the hardest.

Is Mel capable of knowing that Burny is a make-believe friend that got enough believe to become real? Yes! She very much is capable of knowing that. It's even likely that she does know.

She isn't a fanatic despite this knowledge, but because of it.
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This post is 3000% Snowfire approved. Speaking of which...

[X] Azel
 
Azel said:
Look, I've learned over the years that you are a die-hard atheist, but what you are willfully ignoring is that other people aren't. Mel isn't an atheist. She will never accept that Burny is just a campfire that was fed too much juice. What she could accept is the idea of a true god outside all of this. The classical christian god who is invisible, incomprehensible and whose existence can't be logically proven or disproven.

Because at the core of it, religion is fueled by the need for reason. The need for order, for guidance. Those people who lack these things the most are those who often take to religion with the greatest fervor. And they are those who, when threatened, will lash out the hardest.

Is Mel capable of knowing that Burny is a make-believe friend that got enough believe to become real? Yes! She very much is capable of knowing that. It's even likely that she does know.

She isn't a fanatic despite this knowledge, but because of it.
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I will now call him Campfire God.
 
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