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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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egoo said:
*sigh*
This arguing is pointless.
If Azel's vote succeeds, there would be no stopping thread from looting her.
If it doesn't succeed, we get a fight.
But I feel it is likely to succeed, so I'm saaaaaad.
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I'm sorry to hear that. The last thing I want is for people to come away from reading my stories being stressed.

The best assurance I can give as the GM right now is that Viserys himself is both very cautious and very competent in terms of social encounters, as much or more so then he is in combat, so if you trust him to kill Mel, maybe it might be worth trusting him to change her mind too.
 
Artemis1992 said:
If the majority of the thread wants to kill Mel, why the hell are we not voting for it?

Seriously, I have seen the sentiment of wanting her dead very often by now, why are you all voting for the diplomatic option?
Is everyone convinced we are not enough?
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I'm just playing nice until we get that orb.

After that we can toss her to her god directly, preferably while strapped with about twelve different types of explosive.

[X] Azel
 
Does anyone remember what Melisandre or Thoros' opinion of wildfire was in canon?

Do they see it as a perversion of R'hllor's power or as a weapon sent to men to be used against the Long Night?
 
egoo said:
*sigh*
This arguing is pointless.
If Azel's vote succeeds, there would be no stopping thread from looting her.
If it doesn't succeed, we get a fight.
But I feel it is likely to succeed, so I'm saaaaaad.
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@Goldfish, was very displeased we looted that Khalassar. Look at Rhango now. I'm excited to see what will DP do with her if we do loot her.

Speaking of Rhango @DragonParadox, what does he think of a Dothraki riding a Tuanu Horse with it's 1 hour waterbreathing to rider ability? Would that shatter their worldview or suddenly find themselves with a notion of riding the poison water sea?
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
She could have fetched this herself a while ago. Instead, she came here to judge our servants and make a statement: "I'm strong, I could have done this, but I decided to give you a chance first. Now, shall we talk?"
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She could have but she didn't and Fire god himself wants it so why hasn't she taken it yet? Either A) her god told her to wait for us meaning that he knew we were coming. Something that requires the man to pierce through Mindblank or B) she cant. I am inclined to go with the latter because a red dragon orb is more important than anything else. Especially if it is to give an edge against the Others. Also she expected us there not our servants.
 
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Azel said:
Is Mel capable of knowing that Burny is a make-believe friend that got enough believe to become real? Yes! She very much is capable of knowing that. It's even likely that she does know.
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And here I always thought knowledge would be the death of faith.
That if one has enough knowledge to understand how the world works without requiring faith in any unknown or unknowable part of the process the faith would be superflous and not part of the mental make-up anymore.

Guess I'm loosing faith in that idea.
 
Duesal said:
Does anyone remember what Melisandre or Thoros' opinion of wildfire was in canon?

Do they see it as a perversion of R'hllor's power or as a weapon sent to men to be used against the Long Night?
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Mel's was guilt tripping Stannis for not bringing her to Blackwater Bay, implying she could have controlled it. Thoros was dunking his sword in wildfire everytime he's fighting because it looks cool.
 
Takesis said:
Mel's was guilt tripping Stannis for not bringing her to Blackwater Bay, implying she could have controlled it. Thoros was dunking his sword in wildfire everytime he's fighting because it looks cool.
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Good point about Thoros, I completely forgot about that.

Though in this setting he's pretty much ruining his sword every time he does that. Valyrian Steel is the only metal impervious to wildfire.
 
Artemis1992 said:
And here I always thought knowledge would be the death of faith.
That if one has enough knowledge to understand how the world works without requiring faith in any unknown or unknowable part of the process the faith would be superflous and not part of the mental make-up anymore.

Guess I'm loosing faith in that idea.
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Faith here represents more than deities. It represents concepts and ideals. The only way for those to stop existing is to eradicate sentient life.

So, it is actually backwards. Sentience gives birth to faith, and thus gods.
 
Artemis1992 said:
And here I always thought knowledge would be the death of faith.
That if one has enough knowledge to understand how the world works without requiring faith in any unknown or unknowable part of the process the faith would be superflous and not part of the mental make-up anymore.

Guess I'm loosing faith in that idea.
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Yeah, that's the thing. Human minds aren't hardwired to use perfect logic. And the belief in science is ultimately still just that. Belief.

It's not the act of believing in something that is reprehensible, but the why and how you do it. And if Mel believes in a over-deity called Gygax after this, but is otherwise a well adjusted human being? Fine by me. She isn't lesser for believing in other things then we do.

Tolerance is a two-way street.
 
Duesal said:
Good point about Thoros, I completely forgot about that.

Though in this setting he's pretty much ruining his sword every time he does that. Valyrian Steel is the only metal impervious to wildfire.
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He would always ruin his blade with that.

Setting a sword on fire is a sure way to wreck it. The magic bullshit about a flaming sword isn't that it burns, but that it doesn't take damage from it.
 
One Autumn Leaf said:
She could have but she didn't and Fire god himself wants it so why hasn't she taken it yet? Either A) her god told her to wait for us meaning that he knew we were coming. Something that requires the man to pierce through Mindblank or B) she cant. I am inclined to go with the latter because a red dragon orb is more important than anything else. Especially if it is to give an edge against the Others. Also she expected us there not our servants.
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Melisandre explicitly said that she was waiting for Viserys here. She strongly, strongly implied that she wanted to "judge us" by watching us deal with this and seeing how we fought.

Look, there are three possibilities here:
  • Melisandre is weak and irrelevant as a spellcaster. Unlikely.
  • The Red God has no Outsider servants Melisandre could summon as reinforcements to fight a Lich. Also Unlikely: Gods and devils both have some!
  • The point wasn't to grab the orb, but to judge us first and open contact from a position of strength. Maybe she was planning on using it against us if we had to fight, but it wasn't her first priority either - otherwise she'd have seized it before we even arrived.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by egoo on Feb 14, 2019 at 12:46 PM, finished with 278713 posts and 15 votes.
  • [X] Plan The Taming Of The Crazy
    -[X] "You speak of masks and that makes me wonder..." Cut yourself off. "No, I think if we are to argue theology, we should not stand around in the desert. If I may?" Bloodwish: Fabricate some stone benches, arrayed in a circle. Enough of them that everyone can sit down while leaving a few places empty, allowing Mel and the group to be separated. Make a point of sitting with your group, but at the place closest to Mel. // What's coming might set her off something fierce, so we need to set up the stage. A stand-off in the desert can go off any second, but sitting around and talking raises her hesitation to fling spells at us. At the same time, we give her enough room to keep some degree of separation, but don't put her on point by seating her directly opposite of everyone. Viserys being close to her shows both interest and prevents the image of a king holding court against her. The whole "cutting yourself off"-thing is calculated. It makes this looks more spontaneous instead of a very calculated move.
    -[X] "Masks you said. A curious way to put it, for while a mask might be used to hide one, it can also help to become many. Though that might be my years in Braavos talking, I can not in good conscience think that everything hidden is wicked. I have met my fair share of people donning many masks, seeking to aid and spread wisdom from behind them instead of donning them to poison and deceive just as often as the other way around." // This is a very important point to figure out if she can accept this. The root of my argumentation is that she is right, from a certain perspective, and wrong, from another perspective. The Red Faith can be interpreted to include other divine beings, even worthy of worship, but to convince her of this, we need to convince her of the value of facades.
    -[X] "See, the Westerosi pray to the Seven Who are One, claiming that there is but one god with seven aspects in the shape of people and their roles. They too reject the notion of other gods, claiming them demons and false idols, much like you did just now. Malarys here, he used to pray to Balerion who has gone silent after the Doom. Nowadays he prays not to any god at all, but to Order itself. And this Order listens. Every day, he is granted power, not by any god, spirit or demon, but by this idea of order." // Stating some facts about the world. The Seven - Burny parallels are surprisingly deep when viewed through this filter and Malarys is well and truly an outlier. Her model of Burny as the One True God and Source Of All That's Good And Just doesn't really account for the possibility of concept clerics. I need this dissonance in her mind for the final blow.
    -[X] "You said yourself that a mortal can't conceive the fullness of a gods mind. How could he? A god who forged all of this, not just this world, but the dance of the spheres, the ordering of the outer spheres, the river of souls connecting all of it, how should a single mind comprehend a mind so vast it could make all of this? But then again, it's hard to imagine even the vastness of the infinite planes in our minds. So what if there is one god responsible for all of this, but he is so vast that he needs those masks to be comprehensible to a mortal? Masks like the Smith or the Maiden, like the Father... like R'hllor." // Cue combat or deep faith crisis. Place your bets people.
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Takesis said:
He also did in canon with cheap swords, that's why Tobho Mott was loudly complaining about him when Ned visited.
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Azel said:
He would always ruin his blade with that.

Setting a sword on fire is a sure way to wreck it. The magic bullshit about a flaming sword isn't that it burns, but that it doesn't take damage from it.
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We should put an end to this and just enchant him a Flaming Valyrian Steel Greatsword or something.

I'm going to be mad if it turns out he ruined the Mithral sword we gave him by doing this.
 
Artemis1992 said:
And here I always thought knowledge would be the death of faith.
That if one has enough knowledge to understand how the world works without requiring faith in any unknown or unknowable part of the process the faith would be superflous and not part of the mental make-up anymore.

Guess I'm loosing faith in that idea.
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The thing about faith is that when you have it, really have it, knowledge only helps contextualize it.

Like I believe in god, always have really. The knowledge I've gained while I'm alive has not shaken this fact.

If someone was to come down and tell me that the god I believe in is an imaginary creature that has gained strength due to his believers then all that would tell me is that A.) My god is real, B.) He needs my help to continue to exist, and C.) it's in his best interest to keep me and the other faithful alive therefore he's got my best interest at heart.

And that's not even going into the fact that if he exist so does the afterlife, so not doing what I've been doing would only end up with me getting the shitty ending to this wonderful game called life.
 
Azel said:
And the belief in science is ultimately still just that. Belief.
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Yeah.
Which is why I like D&D and other fantasy settings.
You can find out the actual truth about the universe by reading sourcebooks.
Azel said:
It's not the act of believing in something that is reprehensible, but the why and how you do it. And if Mel believes in a over-deity called Gygax after this, but is otherwise a well adjusted human being? Fine by me. She isn't lesser for believing in other things then we do.
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It is not bad, in most cases.
But in a case where there actually is objective truth that can be found out by mortals beyond reasonable doubt it becomes folly and willful ignorance at best to me.

If we can see into the minds of gods and know them for what they are, then worshipping them is just not right.

I would not look down at a peasant who doesn't know better for worshipping the Seven, but I do look down at every Cleric with a CR 18 or higher like Mel doubtlessly has for doing so, because they should, nay must, know better.
 
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Duesal said:
We should put an end to this and just enchant him a Flaming Valyrian Steel Greatsword or something.

I'm going to be mad if it turns out he ruined the Mithral sword we gave him by doing this.
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Mithral would be fine... -ish...

The two things ruining a steel sword are the loss of carbon, reducing the steel to brittle iron, and the stress from thermal expansion. As Mithral is a metal, not an alloy, it doesn't have the first issue and it might be more resilient to the second.
 
Azel said:
Mithral would be fine... -ish...

The two things ruining a steel sword are the loss of carbon, reducing the steel to brittle iron, and the stress from thermal expansion. As Mithral is a metal, not an alloy, it doesn't have the first issue and it might be more resilient to the second.
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The problem is that Thoros is known for using wildfire for this, and in this setting the only metal impervious to wildfire is Valyrian Steel. Even Mithral or Adamantine won't hold up.

Fingers crossed that he hasn't accidentally ruined his sword. He can't exactly go to the nearby smiths for some polishing.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Melisandre explicitly said that she was waiting for Viserys here. She strongly, strongly implied that she wanted to "judge us" by watching us deal with this and seeing how we fought.

Look, there are three possibilities here:
  • Melisandre is weak and irrelevant as a spellcaster. Unlikely.
  • The Red God has no Outsider servants Melisandre could summon as reinforcements to fight a Lich. Also Unlikely: Gods and devils both have some!
  • The point wasn't to grab the orb, but to judge us first and open contact from a position of strength. Maybe she was planning on using it against us if we had to fight, but it wasn't her first priority either - otherwise she'd have seized it before we even arrived.
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Well then her god has the worst priorities ever. Take the orb and gtfo. Turn it into an anti-other weapon and give it to us rather than this judgement tripe. Also I would rather Viserys not be judged by the god who thinks he is the only god and thinks all men are slaves in a setting where other gods exist and free will is a concept that ,we have confirmation, exists. It honestly makes more sense to assume that she cant because this orb is more important than us in the grand scheme of things.
 
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