IMO any setting should be like Conan the barbarian: the mightiest magic-users are a class of their own, mysterious beings who can be killed with guile and teamwork but whose true wrath is to be avoided.
And this makes sense. Face a wizard from outside of charge range and he will kill you. Face a wizard in melee and you genuinely can win. This is just the usual "high-level D&D is missile tag" stuff.

A high-leveled fighter's power comes mostly from his gold, and perhaps his feats. He can kill anything once he's in melee (yes, even high-OP wizards if he's optimized too) but he really needs gear to get into position. Martial adepts can have maneuvers to help there, but even so they often need to be a specific race or have specific gear.

The bad reputation of martials mostly comes from a lack of direct versatility (which sucks! they should all get a lot more skill points, at least!) but especially because lowly optimised martials really do fall far behind, quite fast. Without good system-mancy it's far too easy to build a fighter who's made irrelevant by a lv 7 wizard who has the spells to win fights, make him mostly irrelevant when they fight together, and to bypass many challenges that the fighter would struggle with.
I agree with you. Magic users should be more powerful in a straight confrontation then a muggle. It just makes a lot more sense.

The problem comes from many RPG systems wanting to have impressively powerful mages and muggles as PCs. The results are usually... ugly...

Haven't seen a single system yet where they managed to reconcile magic and warriors without either nerfing the former to bumbling conjurers or boosting the latter to shonen anime levels of ridiculousness.
 
Wanted to comment this but escaped my mind like 3 times.

I hope you guys are understanding the massive game changer that is littlesnakebro. Zathir gives a 'human face' (well not really but you get the point) to Yss' religion. He's an approachable pseudio-god child snake with bright beutiful colors and feathers which can have a conversation without making his counterpart shit his pants at the being beyond time. He also, you know, makes literal hope well up in your heart just by seeing him.

This will massively up the game of Yss' religion. With Zathar and a few helpers (we should probanly fund a sort of monastic order for him) Yss can now go toe to toe in the evangelism game against Burny and the Moonsingers.

With the serpent religion leveraging its advantage as 'the King's favored diety/partner', and devoid of the debuff that made it somewhat unapproachable, its now looking as if the religion has a real shot at being an Empire wide contendant to Burny.

I mean, natives of SD already pride themselves by respecting and pseudo following the Old Gods and Yss, but now Yss can meaningully capture new immigrants from both Essos and Westeros. The religious counterpart to the Social Revolution/melting pot we are engeniering.

This is huge!
 
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I agree with you. Magic users should be more powerful in a straight confrontation then a muggle. It just makes a lot more sense.

The problem comes from many RPG systems wanting to have impressively powerful mages and muggles as PCs. The results are usually... ugly...

Haven't seen a single system yet where they managed to reconcile magic and warriors without either nerfing the former to bumbling conjurers or boosting the latter to shonen anime levels of ridiculousness.
It don't really particularly make sense to me, it's a magic setting, everything is infused with magic, so it makes no sense that Physical fighting should have a cap but magic shouldn't, I just think it's badly balanced in that way, a level 20 fighter shouldn't be just at peak human, he should be at pick up 5 ton boulders and toss them, when he sees a flying wizard.

It's all energy, there's no reason the wizards should have so much more than the fighters.
 
It don't really particularly make sense to me, it's a magic setting, everything is infused with magic, so it makes no sense that Physical fighting should have a cap but magic shouldn't, I just think it's badly balanced in that way, a level 20 fighter shouldn't be just at peak human, he should be at pick up 5 ton boulders and toss them, when he sees a flying wizard.
As a DnD character he can. Except for the 'see a flying wizard' part.
 
It don't really particularly make sense to me, it's a magic setting, everything is infused with magic, so it makes no sense that Physical fighting should have a cap but magic shouldn't, I just think it's badly balanced in that way, a level 20 fighter shouldn't be just at peak human, he should be at pick up 5 ton boulders and toss them, when he sees a flying wizard.

It's all energy, there's no reason the wizards should have so much more than the fighters.
It's a matter of versatility. Look at Richard. His only trick is whacking things with a sword. Everything else is done or provided by the casters around him.

Viserys? What can't he do these days?
Same for Lya or Dany.

I think adding a lot of skillpoints or some casting progression in the later levels would help a lot to make Fighters relevant.

I've just quit my last PnP round over this last week, since Fighters are pigeonholed into dumb muscle in nearly every system, while everyone else gets increasing amounts of utility skills. It's no fun to play a one-trick pony outside of a pure hack & slash campaign.
 
Yeah. There's no way you'll ever catch me playing someone who isn't either a skillmonkey or a spellcaster. The versatility is just incredible, and in most systems it doesn't even mean being weak in combat!
And indeed, any proper fighter should be spending their money on versatility and no just another +1 for their sword. This was a huge issue in 4e IMO - gear being nerfed cut down on caster WBL-mancy but that hurt martials more than wizards! Everyone ended up needing rituals or allies with good and well-chosen skills, or otherwise whole adventures became crazily difficult.
 
Yeah. There's no way you'll ever catch me playing someone who isn't either a skillmonkey or a spellcaster.
I have the great luck to always end up with the most useless character in the campaign.

If I'm focused on fighting, the campaign will turn entirely social and lore focussed.
If I'm a caster, we are doing 10+ engagements a day and I'm useless because I don't have any backup combat ability worth a damn.
If I'm playing a social character, it's a murderfest.
If I'm playing a sneaky character, it's a "go through the front door and shoot everyone" murderfest.
If I'm playing a low-power character, I've got half the dice / bonuses / stats of everyone else.
If I'm playing something optimised, everyone complains about my evil munchkinry.

And if nothing of that applies, the group dies after three evenings as the DM no longer has time.

That's roughly the last 10 years of me playing any kind of PnP. The only things that work out mostly fine are those that I DM myself.
 
Yeah. There's no way you'll ever catch me playing someone who isn't either a skillmonkey or a spellcaster. The versatility is just incredible, and in most systems it doesn't even mean being weak in combat!
And indeed, any proper fighter should be spending their money on versatility and no just another +1 for their sword. This was a huge issue in 4e IMO - gear being nerfed cut down on caster WBL-mancy but that hurt martials more than wizards! Everyone ended up needing rituals or allies with good and well-chosen skills, or otherwise whole adventures became crazily difficult.
My biggest gripe was the ridiculous range limitations on everything, from supposedly long-range spells, to even projectiles.

I know that is a relatively minor issue among the clusterfuck that was 4E, but it was just something I could not overlook.
 
That's roughly the last 10 years of me playing any kind of PnP. The only things that work out mostly fine are those that I DM myself.
Damn, that is terrible luck. [hugs] Poor you.
To be fair though, after reading your quests (don't spoil, my archive binge started this morning!) and what you've been posting in this thread, I absolutely would play in a campaign you DMed. You can think and write! Maybe holding everyone up to your standards is a little harsh?

My biggest gripe was the ridiculous range limitations on everything, from supposedly long-range spells, to even projectiles.

I know that is a relatively minor issue among the clusterfuck that was 4E, but it was just something I could not overlook.
I own dozens of 4e books. Bought them in bulk on ebay a few months after 4e came out, thinking "wow, what a great price!"
Worst money ever spent. I have NEVER managed to finish an actual campaign. A few short adventures, yeah. But that's it!
Just reading the .pdfs wasn't really enough for me to realize exactly how annoying the game would be to play. So loooong... and headdesk-inducing!
:cry::cry::cry:

Even worse - I regularly get more as gifts from well-meaning non-playing friends. Pretending to love their gifts when they're that useless...
:/
 
Sorry for vanishing on you guys. My internet conection took a break.

Which isn't entirely wrong. We are delegating most of the actual ruling to institutions.

That being said, the etiquette thing... I completely forgot.

@DragonParadox, did Rhealla finish her proposal?

She will by the end of the month

@DragonParadox are we building (well, planning to build) a temple and stuff for Zathir like we did Yss?

He does not want one yet.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Sep 11, 2018 at 9:51 AM, finished with 236 posts and 17 votes.
 
Even worse - I regularly get more as gifts from well-meaning non-playing friends. Pretending to love their gifts when they're that useless...

Send them to the recycling plant?
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Sep 11, 2018 at 9:51 AM, finished with 236 posts and 17 votes.
 
If I'm a caster, we are doing 10+ engagements a day and I'm useless because I don't have any backup combat ability worth a damn.
Now now, and not to pick on you as this is relevant to the current discussion as a whole, but that's the trade off for playing a caster, you rule reality... For as long as you have mana.
Without good system-mancy it's far too easy to build a fighter who's made irrelevant by a lv 7 wizard who has the spells to win fights, make him mostly irrelevant when they fight together, and to bypass many challenges that the fighter would struggle wit
Now now, let's not exaggerate.

It's simply the nature of the system, that after level 7-8, you've entered a different tier of play. So it's natural that some challenges aren't just, well, challenging anymore.

While you may be able to get a Black Tentacles off and sit the fight out, you might be indoors, too close, or have enemies too far apart, or have allies in the line of fire, or have an enemy that can simply outgrapple your tentacles and get out, or just roll lucky on it and get out, or have flying enemies, or something else entirely.

Point is, maybe you will be able to one-shot the encounter. Most likely, you will help a whole lot.

But then, you still got another three fights ahead of you, and your one Black Tentacles, even if it helped a lot, is gone for the day.
It don't really particularly make sense to me, it's a magic setting, everything is infused with magic, so it makes no sense that Physical fighting should have a cap but magic shouldn't, I just think it's badly balanced in that way, a level 20 fighter shouldn't be just at peak human, he should be at pick up 5 ton boulders and toss them, when he sees a flying wizard.
But in 3.5, you can.

A well built martial can be a terrifying thing, an unstoppable killing machine. And as long as he has five minutes to chug the health potions he orders in bulk, he can keep going all day long.

In high levels, as we've seen some times, stuff is highly resistant to everything. There's SR, high saves, immunities, magic itens they might be wearing, and so on.

So much so that it's often easier to, say, throw an Orb of Force so your barbarian friend can finish the enemy off, than to try and be clever. Or, in our case, a searing breath.
 
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Damn, that is terrible luck. [hugs] Poor you.
To be fair though, after reading your quests (don't spoil, my archive binge started this morning!) and what you've been posting in this thread, I absolutely would play in a campaign you DMed. You can think and write! Maybe holding everyone up to your standards is a little harsh?
It's nothing about standards. Baring truly egregious sins (screwing the players over at every turn, blatant DM-NPCing and railroading to such a degree that the DM might as well monologue), I have no issues with my DM. Mind, those examples were all united in a single guy once and I'm not sad about that round dying.

Heck. Look at the plotline of the Anya Omakes. The whole thing was full of clishees and the basic plot sounds like a horror B-movie. (It was also full of lampshades, but that's just me being me.)


My issue is that I keep getting into situations where I tag along with the party for no discernible reason. Imagine Richard coming along to Viserys negotiations with someone.

That's fine for a NPC, but sucks as a PC.
 
It's a matter of versatility. Look at Richard. His only trick is whacking things with a sword. Everything else is done or provided by the casters around him.
Not with White Raven.

He can get so fucking inspiring that a bunch of peasants can together kill a dragon overconfident enough to land, when he makes a Battlemaster's Charge or something similar.
 
Now now, and not to pick on you as this is relevant to the current discussion as a whole, but that's the trade off for playing a caster, you rule reality... For as long as you have mana.
And I generally have no issue with that, bit if you are standing in a corner and doing nothing for 4 out of 5 evenings, three hours each, you kinda loose interest in showing up.
 
Send them to the recycling plant?
The art is decent enough sometimes and the setting fluff is great. I flick through them for inspiration sometimes.
Eventually I'll sell them all on ebay, as one large collection. Hopefully I'll get a better price for them than by selling individually. Right now I have the storage space so I won't bother, but next time I move... Yeah, they're going down.

Now now, and not to pick on you as this is relevant to the current discussion as a whole, but that's the trade off for playing a caster, you rule reality... For as long as you have mana.
I just want to say that Fiery Burst is awesome and the fact that we give it to almost everyone is just perfect. Before that feat was a thing all my PCs had to buy cheap wands to attack when using a spell wasn't worth it, and the bookkeeping was a pain (as well as the eventual drain on their finances).
And yeah, if there's one thing I dislike about this quest it's the fact that this is never a problem. We seem to always manage to handle things within 3-4 encounters per day :'(

It's simply the nature of the system, that after level 7-8, you've entered a different tier of play. So it's natural that some challenges aren't just, well, challenging anymore.

While you may be able to get a Black Tentacles off and sit the fight out, you might be indoors, too close, or have enemies too far apart, or have allies in the line of fire, or have an enemy that can simply outgrapple your tentacles and get out, or just roll lucky on it and get out, or have flying enemies, or something else entirely.

Point is, maybe you will be able to one-shot the encounter. Most likely, you will help a whole lot.

But then, you still got another three fights ahead of you, and your one Black Tentacles, even if it helped a lot, is gone for the day.
Except that a single Black Tentacles is usually enough for one fight, and a level 7 wizard can often cast 3 or 4 of those a day.

I do agree that every spell is situational and that a good GM can usually work things out so that the wizard never really makes all other players irrelevant (although that is hard when the non-wizards are 1-dimensional "stand and trade hits" fighters with no tactical options beyond "double move" or "full attack"). It's just a shame that the game ends up having to be entirely built around one guy's character, and doing this runs the risk of annoying the wizard's player.
This can be avoided by picking one of the many existing good builds and gear choices for martials, of course.

But in 3.5, you can.

A well built martial can be a terrifying thing, a unstoppable killing machine. And as long as he has five minutes to chug the health potions he orders in bulk, he can keep going all day long.

In high levels, as we've seen some times, stuff is highly resistant to everything. There's SR, high saves, immunities, magic items they might be wearing, and so on.

So much so that it's often easier to, say, throw an Orb of Force so your barbarian friend can finish the enemy off, than to try and be clever.
While I entirely agree with you...
I'm just gonna point out that a Troll with well-chosen Templates absolutely can be immune to all forms of damage (I saw this in a 3.0 game once, it was an interesting challenge). We ended up burying it alive, but almost got TPKed. Fun times.
:p
3.X, when everything can happen! Which comes back to the "everyone needs some versatility" argument.

Still, this is tongue-in-cheek. I absolutely do agree with you that a well-built fighter can be a Greek demigod as needed, beating down stone walls and running over lava. Never underestimate the might of the muscle man!
I only wish that less system-mancy and WBL-mancy was needed to accomplish this...
 
@DragonParadox? Is the Jeyne Westerling who stumbled into an Other-touched tomb the same Jeyne Westerling who tamed by the power of Aurane's magic cock?
Or are they just 2 characters with the exact same name?

I was thinking of writing an Omake featuring Jeyne struggling to recover her lost memories. Is that okay, or will she reappear in the story in the future?
 
@DragonParadox? Is the Jeyne Westerling who stumbled into an Other-touched tomb the same Jeyne Westerling who tamed by the power of Aurane's magic cock?
Or are they just 2 characters with the exact same name?

I was thinking of writing an Omake featuring Jeyne struggling to recover her lost memories. Is that okay, or will she reappear in the story in the future?
The Lannister mage who almost killed Aurane was a nobody prior to getting magic and had her awakening long before Jeyne.

No relation.
 
Part MMCCLXXXVII: Child of the Iron City
Child of the Iron City

Seventh Day of the Fifth Month 293 AC

You answer evenly and without haste, with care to every syllable spoken. "It is a nice port city called Sorcerer's Deep, sitting on a lagoon with crystal-clear water, the land slowly rising towards the mountains. The sky is rarely clouded, the fresh breeze of the sea ever present, and the flames of the sun shine warmly upon it. A wonderful place to call my home."

The air falls unnaturally still, that you almost hear the heartbeats of all present, two of which you imagine are thumping to a more urgent rhythm than before.

"Well... that's not the strangest thing I've heard or seen today," Yrten declares, the deadpan only wavering slightly on the first word.

Siduri by contrast is clearly deep in thought, far too much so to maintain her facade of cool collected interest. She did not seem precisely fearful, though, not even wholly out of balance, but more like she had been presented with the last line of a difficult riddle and was now attempting to put it all together.

When it becomes clear she will not be speaking up until her inner musings have run their course you turn fully to the captain and continue: "I would like you to recall what you said about keeping secrets to be kept getting told them. Also recall what I said about the Sultan's mood after his recent... misfortune. You would do well to keep this knowledge quiet."

"A fair bargain if ever I heard one, and an easy one to keep at that," Yrten replies. "It's common knowledge that dragons are creatures of the Wild, and the Realm of Balance is about the last place..."

"As in many cases 'common knowledge' is wrong," Siduri finally speaks up at last. "Dragons of crimson coat are born of Fire, just as those whose scales are green are kin to the Deep Earth." She quietly slides something across the table. As Ser Richard catches it, you see that it is a small talisman wrought of a single green dragonscale bound in gold, likely taken from one of the devils. "Dragons were born as instruments of domination over a realm where all the elements mingled freely, as they in turn could mingle their blood with each other and even with... 'lesser' races."

You meet her gaze with curiosity, but also a small measure of trepidation. You are not sure how much of your history you are comfortable sharing... and how much her guesswork is about to make it moot.

Siduri taps her horns with a knowing smile: "These come with all manner of misfortunes, some of which can be dealt with while others as inseparable as my own shadow, but do you know what the best part about them is?"

"That no one considers the other side of your heritage too deeply?" Dany guesses, her thoughts obviously running alongside yours on the matter.

"You shared a rather personal history with me, so let me then reciprocate in a rather less succinct manner, but first a question just for... fun: how old do you think I am?"

"Thou art cruel to ask that, my lady," Waymar interjects surprisingly before you can speak. "It would be sheerest folly to guess, though none can deny your beauty." As he finishes the young Valeman blushes, denting the effect, though Tyene at least smiles in wholehearted approval at the answer he gave.

"That's very sweet, but I promise you I was not seeking compliments," Siduri laughs. "For nine-hundred-ninety-nine years I dwelt in black-spired Dis, not quite one of the damned but knowing that their fate was only one misstep away. For you see, my kindred had come from far away indeed in my great-grandfather's time, from a ruined land of dying magic. Only a desperate bargain with the Dispater 'saved' my great-grandfather and his two children, my grandmother and grandfather respectively. I imagine all here know enough about what manner of salvation devils offer to guess that their fate was a dark one, but perhaps because of my divided nature the bargain lay more lightly upon my shoulders. Through cunning sorcery and I will admit no small measure of luck I escaped not only the Iron City, but Hell itself."

"Though you left some allies behind," Tyene guessed.

"There are those who will still speak with me, imps and other lesser fiends, but also sages and exiles who dwell at the sufferance of the Lord of the Second and for his amusement, or at least so he thinks. True immortals have this fascinating capacity of those of us who live under the empire of time, often to their ruin."

"Am I so assume whoever told you about Zathir's ship passing this way is in some beyond betraying that fact?" you ask, giving your words the slightest edge.

"Nothing we told you was untrue," the mage hastens to explain. "The prisoner did send out dreams begging for rescue, but there is a reason we were able to find the ship so swiftly, or indeed how I knew we would have to act quickly before the mad oracle called in more of his cabal to aid him. To answer the question you actually posed, kaelos... yes, I trust the one who sold me that information to keep himself safe, even against the wrath of Dispater. Hag's blood may not do much for one's looks, but it does bequeath upon the mage a truly astonishing ability to slip nooses. My contact had already crossed into the Depths of the Endless Ocean by the time he made the bargain."

"What is Valyria to you?" you ask, tiring of this game even as you admire her skill at it.

"The home I might have had were it not dust and ashes," she replies. "I would like to think my parents would have lain together regardless of where my mother would have found herself. Considering their different natures their relationship was surprisingly honest, even happy by certain measures."

"Your father was a half-blood fiend, not a full baatezu?" Dany only half-asks. One does not find joy in the arms of a devil save when it is an illusion meant to twist the knife in deeper, but one less bound to Hell's dark fate might have been more fortunate, at least for a time.

"My father was... a good man. He died, pressing the dagger in deeper himself when I could not do it that I might pay the ferryman my passage across the Styx in his blood," Siduri replies, her eyes looking briefly not to any present but through you to some distant nightmare. "He said that at least in this manner some part of him and of mother might be free. Tell me, oh dragonlord, did I share enough secrets to know thine name?"

What do you reply?

[] Write in

OOC: Growing up in Dis does not give one a trusting disposition, but Siduri is clearly willing to at least take a chance on you.
 
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Aaaaand, goddammit. Not only is she powerful, pretty, mysterious and female, but now she has a tragic backstory!
Thread looting frenzy in 3, 2, 1...

EDIT: Also jeez, Valyria went on for a long time. She was born in Hell centuries before the Doom!
 
Well then...

See no reason not to be honest now.

[] "I'm Viserys Targaryen, heir to the the last living ancient noble house of the Valyrian Freehold before it's Doom, and king of a mortal realm within the Plane of Balance."
-[] "This is my younger sister, my sworn sword, and treasured friends and allies."
-[] "Despite the terrible events that had us meet this way it is nice to meet you... cousin."
 
Aaaaand, goddammit. Not only is she powerful, pretty, mysterious and female, but now she has a tragic backstory!
Thread looting frenzy in 3, 2, 1...
Meh. Character and flavor are the real draws. And this chapter felt too high on exposition to really concentrate on those.
Also jeez, Valyria went on for a long time. She was born in Hell centuries before the Doom!
Remember time on the planes was not synchronized.
I got the impression her ancestors left Valyria around the time of the Doom:
For you see my kindred had come from far away indeed in my great-grandfather's time, from a ruined land of dying magic.
 
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