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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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@Azel

What would it really change? If we go to the Outsider's loci, and ask it to search for cultish activities, knowing full well that giving us such information would be for "the greater good", it would do so. Even if it were aware that we had a separate information gathering apparatus with which to use to collect data on our citizens to use for some Good Ole Suppressing of Uppities, we weren't "using the Church's servants for tyranny", but using our own.

And a God could direct its focus on things happening in a city regardless of presence of its vessels acting as an inbetween, and neither would the Moonsingers inexplicably develop the magical powers of "dictating policy". They could either cooperate with our agents and provide information on a threat, or refuse, in which case, we lean on our own resources.
 
It will inform us even if it doesn't like it, because the alternative is letting capital E Evil win.

And you forget Viserys' skills, and the simple fact that we could always Dominate it if it comes down to it.

Again, the evidence we have is that it has been working nicely for the Silver Eye .

We can just use it for the exact same thing.
 
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You saber rattle about useless conjecture, but all you have been doing is providing more useless conjecture.
Adhoc vote count started by Crake on Jul 4, 2018 at 7:45 AM, finished with 202778 posts and 9 votes.
  • [X] Yes, it would improve communication thousandfold.
    -[X] Rather than simply making the request of the Moonsingers on our behalf, ask Alysande to re-introduce us to them so that we might offer them a parcel of land in Sorcerer's Deep on which they can build a new temple. We are always interested in establishing positive relationships with benevolent or even neutral deities. Should the Moonsingers prove amenable, we are willing to assist in establishing their new temple, providing material support as well as magic-aided construction.
    [X] No, you would not trust its loyalties
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TotallyNotEvil said:
Again, the evidence we have is that it has been working nicely for the Silver Eye .

We can just use it for the exact same thing.
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The Silver Eye, notedly, does not enthusiastically practice blood sacrifice whereas we do.

They would simply put the cultists to death. We drag them straight to the trees. What happens if the mirror mephit decides it doesn't like that?

@DragonParadox, what is Viserys' IC speculation on this?
 
Crake said:
You saber rattle about useless conjecture, but all you have been doing is providing more useless conjecture.
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This.

It clearly works. The proof is the entire Silver Eye network in Braavos.

Nothing stopping us from having a discrete system running simultaneously, in fact we already have the beginnings of one.

This isn't saying "You are Lord Commander now, CG dude". This is us getting a camera network with opinions.

We've seen time and again how Greater Good will swing most outsiders. This is no different.
 
DragonParadox said:
Just as a note, since Viserys will think it IC, you could put protocols in place to only use it for certain inquisitorial duties in order to avoid conflict. In fact he rather suspects that is what the Silver Eye are currently doing.
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Yeah I think this highlights that I'm not talking out of my ass here.
 
Crake said:
@Azel

What would it really change? If we go to the Outsider's loci, and ask it to search for cultish activities, knowing full well that giving us such information would be for "the greater good", it would do so. Even if it were aware that we had a separate information gathering apparatus with which to use to collect data on our citizens to use for some Good Ole Suppressing of Uppities, we weren't "using the Church's servants for tyranny", but using our own.

And a God could direct its focus on things happening in a city regardless of presence of its vessels acting as an inbetween, and neither would the Moonsingers inexplicably develop the magical powers of "dictating policy". They could either cooperate with our agents and provide information on a threat, or refuse, in which case, we lean on our own resources.
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Because this introduces a single point of failure for the entire security of a city. Just one rogue agent that nicks a mirror can access the entire surveillance system with no one the wiser.

We are passing information through a being that is unaccountable to us and has divine backing when opposing us. If said being is subverted in some fashion, we loose big time.

We are merely guessing at what will and what will not trigger the thing into refusing it's aid.

It makes the entire compartmentalized structure of the Inquisition worthless, since we are now back to one thing knowing everything, making any hostile infiltrators capable of bringing it all down.

...

Would any if you jump blindly into tjis if it was Abraxas offering?

Because all I'm seeing here is "It's Good, so it's fine." sith zero regard for tje actual implications of installing a huge point of centralization in a decentralised organisation.
 
Duesal said:
The Silver Eye, notedly, does not enthusiastically practice blood sacrifice whereas we do.

They would simply put the cultists to death. We drag them straight to the trees. What happens if the mirror mephit decides it doesn't like that?

@DragonParadox, what is Viserys' IC speculation on this?
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Then it will grumble and mumble, but would never, say, hide cultists from us.

Because that's Chaotic Stupid, and at the end of the day, it cares more about defeating Evil than spitting evil.

But suppose it's Chaotic Stupid. Nothing changes, we can just kick it out if it doesn't cooperate.

It's also for one city.
 
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Crake said:
You saber rattle about useless conjecture, but all you have been doing is providing more useless conjecture.
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I have clearly stated why doing this is creating absurd risks for the Inquisition by negating all the security advantages given by its compartmentalized nature.

This is fact, not conjecture, since it doesn't hinge on the unreliability of a gods gofer to be a problem.
 
[X] Abstain

I can't bring myself to pick a side here, since clearly no one is entirely objectively correct. And no, I do not consider inherently biased view points bearing mention to what could happen as "objective".

But I'm leaning towards dropping the matter, since hypothetically speaking, between Tyranny and Freedom, I lean towards Tyranny, since at least you can make a gilded cage comfortable, but a forest will periodically burn and kill the birds living there without much hope of stopping it.

CG considers this morally sound.
 
Azel said:
Hell no! Building your information network on the back of a being that is advertised with having divided loyalties is the height of retardation.
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??? Who said anything about trusting our information network to it? That's just an additional information source.
 
Ok, Azel has points against using it for the Inquisition, but l still agree with setting up a temple. So,

[X] Refuse the offer
-[X] Ask for a referral instead for a favor with the Moonsingers to get the service of the Mirror Mephit for our personal use.
-[X] Offer to have a temple built for the Moonsinger Goddess in Sorcerer's Deep when we talk to them.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
This.

It clearly works. The proof is the entire Silver Eye network in Braavos.

Nothing stopping us from having a discrete system running simultaneously, in fact we already have the beginnings of one.

This isn't saying "You are Lord Commander now, CG dude". This is us getting a camera network with opinions.

We've seen time and again how Greater Good will swing most outsiders. This is no different.
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The Silver Eye is operating a centralized operation. We. Do. Not.

The structure of the Inquisition is fundamentally different. It's set up with redundant, divided structures to prevent hostile infiltration.

Take note how the Silver Eye nearly got taken over by the Orphne. Blindly copying what they are doing is not doing us any favors without considering the implications.
 
[X] Azel

Fuck it, that dig about Braavos almost getting taken over by Fey was more pointed, actually.
Adhoc vote count started by Crake on Jul 4, 2018 at 7:55 AM, finished with 202790 posts and 10 votes.
  • [X] Yes, it would improve communication thousandfold.
    -[X] Rather than simply making the request of the Moonsingers on our behalf, ask Alysande to re-introduce us to them so that we might offer them a parcel of land in Sorcerer's Deep on which they can build a new temple. We are always interested in establishing positive relationships with benevolent or even neutral deities. Should the Moonsingers prove amenable, we are willing to assist in establishing their new temple, providing material support as well as magic-aided construction.
    [X] No, you would not trust its loyalties
    [X] Refuse the offer
    -[X] Ask for a referral instead for a favor with the Moonsingers to get the service of the Mirror Mephit for our personal use.
    -[X] Offer to have a temple built for the Moonsinger Goddess in Sorcerer's Deep when we talk to them.
Click to expand...
 
MTB said:
??? Who said anything about trusting our information network to it? That's just an additional information source.
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That's implicit. The update clearly shows that the thing is aware of everything the network sees and what goes on around it's mirrors.

It thus knows every scrap of information passed through it and could easily divulge volatile information to a rogue agent without needing a scrap of malicious intent on the mephits part.

That is a gaping security hole.
 
So, why exactly does this impede us from setting up conventional means of information gathering, in addition to the magic mirror?

Have one department for this, another for the rest.
 
Azel said:
Because this introduces a single point of failure for the entire security of a city. Just one rogue agent that nicks a mirror can access the entire surveillance system with no one the wiser.

We are passing information through a being that is unaccountable to us and has divine backing when opposing us. If said being is subverted in some fashion, we loose big time.

We are merely guessing at what will and what will not trigger the thing into refusing it's aid.

It makes the entire compartmentalized structure of the Inquisition worthless, since we are now back to one thing knowing everything, making any hostile infiltrators capable of bringing it all down.

...

Would any if you jump blindly into tjis if it was Abraxas offering?

Because all I'm seeing here is "It's Good, so it's fine." sith zero regard for tje actual implications of installing a huge point of centralization in a decentralised organisation.
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You are making a big deal out of nothing here, dude. If the Watcher doesn't cooperate or makes a nuisance of itself, we can ask it to leave. If it doesn't want to leave, we can Dismiss or Banish it. Seriously, it's just an Outsider spirit, and a Chaotic Good one at that, so we don't have to worry about a lot of the crap that comes with dealing with most other Outsiders. None of our enemies are the types of beings a CG Outsider would cooperate with, either, so betrayal is unlikely.

We don't even have to use it for the Inquisition. If it helps, great, if not, that's fine, too. We can use it for other purposes. Hell, if it comes down to it, we can just use it to televise major events, "broadcasting" to places like Mosshold and Everfire Dale.

I expect more pragmatism out of you than this, Azel.
 
Azel said:
It thus knows every scrap of information passed through it and could easily divulge volatile information to a rogue agent without needing a scrap of malicious intent on the mephits part.

That is a gaping security hole
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You'd think the properly paranoid braavosi would set up protocols for that.

I highly doubt and random fellow can grab a mirror and get the keys to the kingdom.
 
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